Quantcast

Forward-geometry is it the future?

no skid marks

Monkey
Jan 15, 2006
2,514
26
ACT Australia
How does it help climbing? My thoughts are you can't weight the front as easily, and the steering climbing will be worse with the front wheel further forward and wandering.
As for down hill, you won't have anywhere near the leverage to lift the rear of the bike for control in the air, or be able to get weight over the front as easily. We already have slack head angles now that make you ride aggressively to use some travel to make the bike turn faster, or the front washes out, with a longer front I imagine this would be worse.
I used to love 35mm stems, the steering was so snappy. A mate kept on about slightly longer being better for rear wheel control and weighing the front, saying look at all the world cup riders.. I tried it, and it did help a touch with both. I still was very fond of the 35mm(now 40mm Thanks to oversize bars).
Why didn't people dig it when Azonic tried it?
 

klunky

Turbo Monkey
Oct 17, 2003
1,079
6
Scotland
Downside is I guess that if you want to change the stem length you have less options perhaps? I.E. if the TT feels a little long then there is not anything you can do. Unlkely scenario for sure.
Seems like a nice idea to me other than looking a little quirky.

Ignoring all that though I would love to see more footage of Fabien schredding that trail. It looks freakin sick
 

kidwoo

Celebrating No-Pants Day
Aug 25, 2003
22,495
2,171
In my pants
That's basically what specialized started doing years ago (really stretching out the front ends) but with that awesome direct drive stem thingy.

I'm just going to buy a bigger bike with that stem.
 

Dogboy

Turbo Monkey
Apr 12, 2004
3,131
253
Chapel Hill, NC
My thoughts are you can't weight the front as easily
This is my thought as well. Knowing how current, standard geometry places your weight on the front wheel and looking at how long that front center is on the Forward bikes, I just can't imagine you can get enough weight on the front wheel in some situations. This is just speculation on my part of course.
 

kidwoo

Celebrating No-Pants Day
Aug 25, 2003
22,495
2,171
In my pants
The only thing I can possibly think he meant was that you'll keep more weight over the rear wheel for standing up hulk smash climbing and better traction on gravel. Because there's no WAY that puts more weight over your front wheel.
 

Pslide

Turbo Monkey
I will confess to not having watched the videos yet, but I'm assuming the theory is that with current geometry, getting into attack position with weight on the front wheel means there is some increased risk of going over the front of the bike, especially in technical, rocky terrain. I felt this when I first started riding more over the front. By pushing the wheel more forward, you'll gain confidence by having more safety margin, and perhaps attack more. Does it put more weight on the front wheel? Geometrically no. But does it give you more confidence to weight the front wheel more? Possibly yes.

I noticed this comparing my Legend, size L to my 29" Prime, size XL. The Prime is a longer bike, especially front center. The front wheel feels further out in front of me, and combined with the 29" wheel size I was able to attack more than I ever thought possible. I ride it like a DH bike because it gives me the confidence to.
 

nybike1971

Chimp
Nov 16, 2006
67
0
Niskayuna, NY
Doesn't that stem also end up lifting the front end quite a bit? It doesn't look like the shortened the head tube and especially compared to a low direct-mount stem the bars could end up more than an inch higher.
 

Toshi

Harbinger of Doom
Oct 23, 2001
27,600
2,227
Forward-Geometry + 29er = ugliest mountainbike evar!
Truth.

On the other hand, such a frame with a normal stem mounted would probably be perfect for my own weird body geometry (short legs, long torso).
 

norbar

Turbo Monkey
Jun 7, 2007
9,663
385
Warsaw :/
I will confess to not having watched the videos yet, but I'm assuming the theory is that with current geometry, getting into attack position with weight on the front wheel means there is some increased risk of going over the front of the bike, especially in technical, rocky terrain. I felt this when I first started riding more over the front. By pushing the wheel more forward, you'll gain confidence by having more safety margin, and perhaps attack more. Does it put more weight on the front wheel? Geometrically no. But does it give you more confidence to weight the front wheel more? Possibly yes.

I noticed this comparing my Legend, size L to my 29" Prime, size XL. The Prime is a longer bike, especially front center. The front wheel feels further out in front of me, and combined with the 29" wheel size I was able to attack more than I ever thought possible. I ride it like a DH bike because it gives me the confidence to.
For me extending the stem length was better but it might have something to do with how cramped I felt on a shorter stem. Though it may be the same thing in your case as in - many variables, no idea which makes the bike good.


btw. How do you like the prime so far?
 

davec113

Monkey
May 24, 2009
419
0
Seems like the steering would be twitchy unless the HA was raked out to compensate. Like everyone, I've tried different stem lengths and settled on 65mm for my AM bike, 50mm made the front end a little light for climbing and made the steering a little twitchy. So with "forward geometry", I'd need a top tube 65mm, or 2.56" longer. My tt is currently 24.2, so the frame would have a 26.76" top tube to maintain the same crank/handlebar relationship I'm used to. My wheelbase would go from 45.5 to 48", a bit longer than my DH bike. Will this make for a trailbike that's more fun to ride? I have no idea for sure, but I'm skeptical.
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,412
0
SF
I like to see the exact geometries of the new bikes.

It sounds like they pushed out the fork, increasing the wheelbase, but I'm not sure what they did for a headtube angle.
 

JohnnyC

Monkey
Feb 10, 2006
400
1
Rotorua, New Zealand
I will confess to not having watched the videos yet, but I'm assuming the theory is that with current geometry, getting into attack position with weight on the front wheel means there is some increased risk of going over the front of the bike, especially in technical, rocky terrain. I felt this when I first started riding more over the front. By pushing the wheel more forward, you'll gain confidence by having more safety margin, and perhaps attack more. Does it put more weight on the front wheel? Geometrically no. But does it give you more confidence to weight the front wheel more? Possibly yes.

I noticed this comparing my Legend, size L to my 29" Prime, size XL. The Prime is a longer bike, especially front center. The front wheel feels further out in front of me, and combined with the 29" wheel size I was able to attack more than I ever thought possible. I ride it like a DH bike because it gives me the confidence to.
That's about right, the design is intended for certain riders and tracks (ie not everyone) so suits steep, fast tracks for sure.

It helps with climbing because the longer bike will be less inclined to "wheelie" up on steep uphils, so the front wheel will stay planted
 

4130biker

PM me about Tantrum Cycles!
May 24, 2007
3,904
442
Lizard Town
Wasn't Gary Fisher one of the first to market this with his genesis geometry? Anyway, the concept has always seemed like a good idea to me.
Interested to take it up a notch (larger size/ shorter stem) and see how it rides...
 

AlmostHeaven

Turbo Monkey
Jun 8, 2005
1,168
0
VIRGINIA
needz moar Hopey Steering Damper....

here comes the hype train, all aboard! poooooo! pooooooo!

go ride yer friggin' bikes already.
 

tuumbaq

Monkey
Jul 5, 2006
726
0
Squamish BC
moto engineers must have had it wrong all along and that bike is soooo ugly so it cant be good...:rofl:

Im pretty sure Fabien wouldn't ride that thing if it was lesser good in any ways than a regular setup.The guy has done a ton of geo development in his years.

I bet him and Caesar both know how to build fast bicycles that offers true performances gains...Now, if that bike was made by Specialized it'd be debatable:think:

Im excited to see this and I look forward to try it out...hopefully it'll stick around and become a "new"standard
 

no skid marks

Monkey
Jan 15, 2006
2,514
26
ACT Australia
But the front wheels further in front. So less weight on it, and more on the back. and it'd wander easier no?
Exaggerate both older concepts and this in your head. Front wheel closer to back of bike(old), more weight on it, more traction, forks more compressed so turn easier, as opposed to wheel way out in front(this new concept), front wheel way out in front, taking a wider arc to turn, less weight on it making forks extend and also traction lessen. What am I missing? The closer you are to either wheel, the more traction that wheel will get.
 

joeg

I have some obvious biases
Jul 20, 2011
190
67
Santa Cruz CA
get zero stem in hand. call your friend who is 5 inches taller and tell him his mom is in the hospital and needs him ASAP. break into his garage and install your stem. go ride his bike like that. decide if you like your stem length added to your wheelbase suits you. report back findings.
 

buckoW

Turbo Monkey
Mar 1, 2007
1,591
359
Champery, Switzerland
I think Fabien liked the slacker head angles but didn't like the flop associated with it. This way he can have a similar stable feeling of a slack head angle without the flopping from side to side.

@joeg - Isn't Peaty's size V10 too big for you? Maybe you could test it for us and get a 3rd party opinion? Maybe don't tell him his mom is in the hospital...
 

Optimax150

Monkey
Aug 1, 2008
208
0
Japan
I'm pretty sure somebody posted something like this awhile back, to a certain degree. Can't remember the thread. It pretty much said go a frame size larger but with a shorter stem, to offset the longer top tube. If you ride a medium normally and go to a large with the same stem, you will be stretched out more and harder to weight the front. If you go with a shorter stem on the larger frame it will probaly put your bars the same distance as your medium frame, so you should still be able to weight the front as you would on your medium frame.
 

Pslide

Turbo Monkey
For me extending the stem length was better but it might have something to do with how cramped I felt on a shorter stem. Though it may be the same thing in your case as in - many variables, no idea which makes the bike good.


btw. How do you like the prime so far?
Yeah, as JohnnyC said, I don't think this is for everyone. Hopefully someone with an unbiased opinion will get a chance to ride it back to back with a conventional setup.

Prime is pretty amazing as a descender, I did a write up here: http://ohiodownhill.wordpress.com/2012/04/11/the-perfect-enduro-bike/

But it's a little too much bike for where I live. We have a lot of flattish terrain around here and a 33 lbs 5" 29er is overkill. Would be awesome in real mountain terrain though.
 

vikingboy

Monkey
Dec 15, 2009
212
2
Im running my old 50mm stem backwards for even moar stabilities :D
Backward geometry - you heard it here first.
 
Last edited:

davec113

Monkey
May 24, 2009
419
0
That would be Cesar, the guy who is behind all of this. Fabien is just the celebrity endorsement (I think).
I think most people these days prefer a longer tt and shorter stem vs. the other way 'round. It's nothing new....
 

-BB-

I broke all the rules, but somehow still became mo
Sep 6, 2001
4,257
28
Livin it up in the O.C.
Prime is pretty amazing as a descender, I did a write up here: http://ohiodownhill.wordpress.com/2012/04/11/the-perfect-enduro-bike/

But it's a little too much bike for where I live. We have a lot of flattish terrain around here and a 33 lbs 5" 29er is overkill. Would be awesome in real mountain terrain though.

I have a Spitfire, my buddy has a Rune and another friend has a prime. I think that the spitfire turns better than any of them. And is more DH capable (well, maybe not more so than the Rune, but certainly more so than the Prime).
 

profro

Turbo Monkey
Feb 25, 2002
5,604
281
Walden Ridge
While riding a mtn bike I do find it hard to get the perfect amount of weight on the front wheel for various cornering situations. It seems like a mm too much or less and it has a huge effect on the handling of a bike. For various reasons a moto doesn't seem to be as effected. I think this concept could help remedy this. I'd be interested to try it out.

By the way I hate the flop associated with slack head angles too. I really like the stability and higher speed response of a slacked (Angleset) bike, but I hate the flop.
 

marshalolson

Turbo Monkey
May 25, 2006
1,439
73
personally don't like head angle slacker than 67deg on my trail bike.
personally don't like top tube longer than 24.25"
personally don't like stem longer than 50mm

would love wheelbase 1" to 1.5" longer with same net reach.

very interested in trying...
 

SylentK

Turbo Monkey
Feb 25, 2004
1,230
191
coloRADo
I'm finding that my slacker DHR requires me to be more up on top of the handlebars/front tire than my previous Sunday. This takes more energy and strength to make the bike to what I want it to do especially in slower techier situations. But it pays off...that's for sure! I can hit things faster and corner better...if I'm in the right position.

This new geometry is taking the longer top tube, shorter stem to its limits. I should have gone with an XL DHR cuz now I'm finding I prefer a longer (60mm) stem vs. a 53mm direct mount Marz stem to make for a top tube that probably should be longer especially for someone that has a longer torso like myself.

Bah, whatever. Bikes are cool and fun and stuff...
 

Lelandjt

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2008
1,729
129
Breckenridge, CO/Lahaina,HI
Meh, just more playing with top tube/stem lengths. Most of us have already done this and found a front center and stem length that we're happy with. I personally don't like stems shorter than 45mm (twitchy or just weird feeling) or top tubes longer than 24.75" (awkward in tight turns and you really have to lean forward to weight the front tire).
 

DH Dad

Monkey
Jun 12, 2002
434
30
MA
Wasn't Gary Fisher one of the first to market this with his genesis geometry? Anyway, the concept has always seemed like a good idea to me.
Interested to take it up a notch (larger size/ shorter stem) and see how it rides...
That's exactly what I thought when I watched the video, in 1998 GF introduced Genesis and I got one of the first ones. Bigger bike, shorter stem, longer TT in an age when some Specialized Stumpy Hardtails were coming with 150mm stems. Hated that bike, had some of my worst crashes ever. Rode it one year and sold it for a traditional geometry IF. I tend to ride frames one size smaller than recommended for my height though, I like the ability to pop them around the trail and will gladly give up the longer WB any day. Another bad crash was on a medium Spitfire with a 45" WB, sold that after 2 months and got a small with a longer stem and have been a happy camper ever since.