[bullcrew]

Just like title says, doll heads and high speed will make fork feel like it's locked out..my crash I guarantee was due to this..I felt it right before I went down and broke bones...and when it did it..

Rode yesterday and the fork did the same thing...even with high speed comp open it does it...not successive hits wither so it's not packing...

Anyone have or hear of this? Fox said to send it back in there's a manufacturer issue with damper It was brand new....

So this issue cost me injury....

 

[Jm_]

Fox said to send it back in there's a manufacturer issue with damper It was brand new....

They just up and said there's a known issue? Or is this after you sent it in? What happens when you turn the LSC way up?

 

[bullcrew]

No he said it sounded like a bad comp shim or failed imternal

 

[Kanye West]

Shitty bushings possible. Poorly assembled/bent compression VVC leaf spring. Too closed of a LSR setting will choke the midvalve too.

 

[bullcrew]

Shitty bushings possible. Poorly assembled/bent compression VVC leaf spring. Too closed of a LSR setting will choke the midvalve too.

Yeah what he said is pretty.mixh along the lines of what you said......my rebound is 3 from fully open...

 

[ChrisRobin]

I know we talked today, but apparently the bushings in this chassis have been pretty good compared to the 36.

It almost sounds like there's something wrong inside. Mine only starts causing the issues when I'm using less than -6 clicks of LSR. The HSR doesn't seem to affect the compression of the fork...only the LSR. If your fork is choking with the rebound almost all the way open, there's got to be an issue inside.

Have you tried to replicate the problem with different damper settings? That way you could maybe narrow down what setting is causing this locking out...or confirm it locks out no matter what your adjusters are set to?

 

[bullcrew]

I know we talked today, but apparently the bushings in this chassis have been pretty good compared to the 36.

It almost sounds like there's something wrong inside. Mine only starts causing the issues when I'm using less than -6 clicks of LSR. The HSR doesn't seem to affect the compression of the fork...only the LSR. If your fork is choking with the rebound almost all the way open, there's got to be an issue inside.

Have you tried to replicate the problem with different damper settings? That way you could maybe narrow down what setting is causing this locking out...or confirm it locks out no matter what your adjusters are set to?

I did and the SOB spikes periodically...

Yeah thanks for that info earlier Chris...appreciate that....when you find out anything hit me up...I'll let you know what fox says as well....

 

[Inclag]

What's up with the Fox LSR? I don't have a Fox fork, but for something like my Boxxer, the rebound is measured far closer to clicks from closed than to open. With your size and the amount of PSI's you probably have in your fork it just strikes me as odd that the LSR is a few clicks from full open. Larger riders need more rebound damping to control all that added spring force. Is there something way wrong with the Fox damping? I don't mean to sound presumptuous, but what spring pressure are you running? Could you be woefully under sprung and you're compensating to prevent packing by having an open rebound setting? Something isn't computing, but maybe the Fox damping curves are all wonky? I wouldn't know.

 

[buckoW]

I run my 38 fully closed on the compression side on occasion and I haven’t felt the normal harshness that a fully closed compression circuit causes. Sounds like something is up.

@Inclag might be on to something. What are your settings? Did you put in 25psi more than you would on a 36?

 

[bullcrew]

I'll have to look..I have all my numbers in my little book. I am going to tune tomorrow and last try..then it's off to fox

 

[ianjenn]

I'll have to look..I have all my numbers in my little book. I am going to tune tomorrow and last try..then it's off to fox

Do they still service in Santa Cruz? You should see if you can do a drop-off. Stop and eat at a few places on the way.....

 

[slimshady]

Paging @englertracing ... @englertracing to the white courtesy phone...

 

[bullcrew]

Do they still service in Santa Cruz? You should see if you can do a drop-off. Stop and eat at a few places on the way.....

Yeah the operations are moving later for that division and the first group sooner from what I remember chatting with em...

Yeah that would be awesome wife and I love it up there we hike and do ncal 2 times a year minimum..redwoods coue times a year as well

 

[ChrisRobin]

bullcrew already knows this but according to the lead tech over at my Fox suspension shop I swear by (they also work on other stuff):

-Fox doesn't use much racer/pro rider feedback for tuning their dampers and mostly reply on calculations.
-The 38's tuning is fucked and the recommended settings are bogus.
-He reached out to Jordi who gave him some basic settings since the recommended settings were off. For me for example at 220-ish pounds, I was told I should be at about -6 LSR. But the recommended range is -2 or -3.
-Having the LSR closer to being 'closed' or being in the normal settings range that a heavier rider should be (like me, bullcrew and others here), doesn't work because the high oil pressure on the damping circuits makes it feel like you have a lockout on...more or less in layman's terms. Something about the oil bypassing the rebound and going into the compression side.
-The 2021 Fox 40 for example works well, because it just so happens the damper configuration, air spring, chassis...etc, all work well together. And it's true, my 40 is actually really good and the recommended settings were pretty accurate.
-There is no way to tune the Grip2 VVC without machining parts. Also Fox hasn't come out with any sort of update or upgrade to the valving.

I found for both of these forks (38 and 40), this worked for me: A few psi extra over where they recommend, LSC in the middle area, HSC about -5 (8 clicks total), and HSR only about -2 (8 clicks total).

 

[rideit]

Have you thought about a Runt or some such?

 

[PUSHIND]

Generally speaking, riders try to solve a "Spikey" feeling by softening damping or springs.

It's counter-intuitive, but 90% of the time if your suspension feels like it "spikes" it's because it's too soft. Making it softer continues to make it worse and tends to lead the rider down the road of "I think it's broken or messed up".

 

[Jm_]

Generally speaking, riders try to solve a "Spikey" feeling by softening damping or springs.

It's counter-intuitive, but 90% of the time if your suspension feels like it "spikes" it's because it's too soft. Making it softer continues to make it worse and tends to lead the rider down the road of "I think it's broken or messed up".

Hmm, 90% of the time increasing the adjusters on my stuff makes it harder/spikier/harsher. I think that's the reality with most OEM equipment that people ride. There is the issue of having the proper spring rate and going too soft, but that's a little easier to sort out at least.

 

[Kanye West]

Generally speaking, riders try to solve a "Spikey" feeling by softening damping or springs.

It's counter-intuitive, but 90% of the time if your suspension feels like it "spikes" it's because it's too soft. Making it softer continues to make it worse and tends to lead the rider down the road of "I think it's broken or messed up".

This is 100% correct. High speed camera work puts all the guessing to bed.

It's also in line with the fact that the 38 Grip2 damper has almost no range to the already non-existant compression damping.

Hey Darren/PUSH - care to solve that problem for the 38? You'd get my money. Tired of mine diving between big wheel catcher bumps.

 

[Westy]

Have you thought about a Runt or some such?

I think he got the MRP dealio. My used bike came with one and it was a disaster. Perhaps I could have gotten it to work but the previous owner when the route of spacers+MRP thing + softer settings which just made everything feel spikey.

No spacers plus making everything stiffer made all the difference. Will not really stiffer, make the fork ride higher in the travel.

 

[englertracing]

-There is no way to tune the Grip2 VVC without machining parts. Also Fox hasn't come out with any sort of update or upgrade to the valving.

I found for both of these forks (38 and 40), this worked for me: A few psi extra over where they recommend, LSC in the middle area, HSC about -5 (8 clicks total), and HSR only about -2 (8 clicks total).

If you buy a complete shim assembly from Fox....
You can add a face shim. I think on 40s and 38s that this is a big improvement,
however on a 36 the air spring has some issues that don't play well with MOAR SHIMZ.
On the 36 I did MOAR LEAFZ. Seems to work OK (still prefer the RC2, but grip 2 is still currently installed after moar Leafz test)

I dont have grip 2 40 or a 38.
But I have done the Moar Shimz trick to both for friends. I rode the 40 both ways.
The 38 I didn't ride on the trail but it was obviously valved VERY soft, rider liked it better after

Initially they came with three shims on the mid valve, but I think from grip to to grip 2 vvc they went to two opening the float and softening the mid valve (I don't think a mtb necessarily benefits from a lot of Mv action)

I've also removed 1 rebound shim for riders under 160 on the 38 and 40, and on my 36 (I'm 190)

Chris your settings sound appropriate.

 

[Kanye West]

I haven't been inside my 38 yet to get a feel for the porting and valve stiffnesses. I'm debating even keeping this because it's turning into a science project now after I finally got Fox to fix the bushings on it (they were REALLY bad). Are there flexible shims on the MV or just inflexible washers with generous float?

Based on the fact that the most effective LSC adjustment is really the LSR dial, I expect the second one.

 

[englertracing]

I haven't been inside my 38 yet to get a feel for the porting and valve stiffnesses. I'm debating even keeping this because it's turning into a science project now after I finally got Fox to fix the bushings on it (they were REALLY bad). Are there flexible shims on the MV or just inflexible washers with generous float?

Based on the fact that the most effective LSC adjustment is really the LSR dial, I expect the second one.

Vvc mv shims is my 3rd picture
Flexible.
Generous float
Large ports
Shouldn't do much but the cartridge is sizeable in diameter

 

[Inclag]

Hmm, 90% of the time increasing the adjusters on my stuff makes it harder/spikier/harsher. I think that's the reality with most OEM equipment that people ride. There is the issue of having the proper spring rate and going too soft, but that's a little easier to sort out at least.

I wouldn't disagree, especially since a fair amount of suspension still has some 'platform'. However, I think there's a ton of merit to what @PUSHIND is saying. Lots of riders with air springs are setup very undersprung and no dial turning is going to resolve an incorrect spring rate. Air springs don't help, but what I see are that there are many riders that setup their general trail/enduro bikes for their local trails to what they feel is right, then they go to the bike park or to somewhere that is more downhill/speed oriented and they're using nearly all their travel just braking in the steeps and have next to no travel. No amount of knob twiddling will fix packing suspension because you're too deep in the travel.

That being said, that's bananas if the LSR is not effective on a $1300 fork. I'd sell it and get another brand of fork that is serviceable but at least has a functional rebound circuit.

 

[Flo33]

Just watch Steve's Tuesday Tune Episode 32 on the 38 and you know what's going on in the 2021 GRIP2 VVC damper.

 

[Jm_]

I wouldn't disagree, especially since a fair amount of suspension still has some 'platform'. However, I think there's a ton of merit to what @PUSHIND is saying. Lots of riders with air springs are setup very undersprung and no dial turning is going to resolve an incorrect spring rate. Air springs don't help, but what I see are that there are many riders that setup their general trail/enduro bikes for their local trails to what they feel is right, then they go to the bike park or to somewhere that is more downhill/speed oriented and they're using nearly all their travel just braking in the steeps and have next to no travel. No amount of knob twiddling will fix packing suspension because you're too deep in the travel.

That being said, that's bananas if the LSR is not effective on a $1300 fork. I'd sell it and get another brand of fork that is serviceable but at least has a functional rebound circuit.

Well the issue I mainly have is there's always a "theoretical" that seems to assume properly working circuits and that seems to be the real issue most of the time, the circuits are crap and you can't use them as you would ideally, so all the advice about what to theoretically doesn't really end up having much usefulness. It's almost like you have to start there, with a good tune, circuits and basic design, and then you can do the rest, turn the knobs, etc...

 

[ChrisRobin]

If you buy a complete shim assembly from Fox....
You can add a face shim. I think on 40s and 38s that this is a big improvement,
however on a 36 the air spring has some issues that don't play well with MOAR SHIMZ.
On the 36 I did MOAR LEAFZ. Seems to work OK (still prefer the RC2, but grip 2 is still currently installed after moar Leafz test)
View attachment 166450
I dont have grip 2 40 or a 38.
But I have done the Moar Shimz trick to both for friends. I rode the 40 both ways.
The 38 I didn't ride on the trail but it was obviously valved VERY soft, rider liked it better after

Initially they came with three shims on the mid valve, but I think from grip to to grip 2 vvc they went to two opening the float and softening the mid valve View attachment 166451View attachment 166452 (I don't think a mtb necessarily benefits from a lot of Mv action)

I've also removed 1 rebound shim for riders under 160 on the 38 and 40, and on my 36 (I'm 190)

Chris your settings sound appropriate.

Alright. That's good info. I'll see what they say when I go pick up my fork and I'll mention this trick.

 

[bullcrew]

Be curious to see...I'll take mine out next week and send on to fox.
I be curious to see what they say at your place @ChrisRobin ...


I don't mind throwing some shims at it if needed...worst case is rock it for a bit them just go AVY...Make tuning simple a reliable...

Couple buddies here said they prefer the rc2 over grip 2

 

[englertracing]

A bushing could be made on a lathe to put an rc2 into a 38....

 

[SylentK]

While I haven't felt any spiking on my 2021 36 Factory/Grip2, there is definitely a whooshing noise on compression and rebound I've never heard on any of my previous Fox's. The fork feels fine but it's kinda loud and distracting. Like there's not enough oil in it?

 

[ChrisRobin]

While I haven't felt any spiking on my 2021 36 Factory/Grip2, there is definitely a whooshing noise on compression and rebound I've never heard on any of my previous Fox's. The fork feels fine but it's kinda loud and distracting. Like there's not enough oil in it?

I don't hear any sounds during compression, but the sucking sound is loud on rebound. I think it's normal. Watch yootoob videos of people riding and you'll hear the the whoooshing sound in their suspension. Then you look at their fork....yep, Fox Grip2.

 

[SylentK]

I don't hear any sounds during compression, but the sucking sound is loud on rebound. I think it's normal. Watch yootoob videos of people riding and you'll hear the the whoooshing sound in their suspension. Then you look at their fork....yep, Fox Grip2.

Ok thanks! If it starts developing CSU creaking, I'm ditching it for a Zeb. It is kinda that annoying. Ain't no one got time for that!

 

[Jm_]

Ok thanks! If it starts developing CSU creaking, I'm ditching it for a Zeb. It is kinda that annoying. Ain't no one got time for that!

If the CSU starts creaking on a 38, Fox needs to freaking buy you a Zeb or give you a 40.

 

[djjohnr]

I have a Grip 2 damper to drop in to the Grip 1 36 that came with my bike. If it sucks I'm going to give the Ohlins RFX36 m.2 coil a shot next.

 

[ChrisRobin]

Ok thanks! If it starts developing CSU creaking, I'm ditching it for a Zeb. It is kinda that annoying. Ain't no one got time for that!

You should have heard my 2019 Boxxer WC. Now THAT was loud.

As for the creaking, I was told that was addressed after the first batch of 38s went out.

 

[canadmos]

Ok thanks! If it starts developing CSU creaking, I'm ditching it for a Zeb. It is kinda that annoying. Ain't no one got time for that!

Zeb damper isn't totally silent either. But it works.

The interface between the crown and headtube on the zeb looks rather beefy, hopefully that helps cut down on potential for creaking.

 

[englertracing]

I have a Grip 2 damper to drop in to the Grip 1 36 that came with my bike. If it sucks I'm going to give the Ohlins RFX36 m.2 coil a shot next.

Vvc or non?

 

[Kanye West]

That being said, that's bananas if the LSR is not effective on a $1300 fork. I'd sell it and get another brand of fork that is serviceable but at least has a functional rebound circuit.

The LSR works. The LSC and HSC do not. The LSR influences the LSC more than the LSC adjuster does (or at least it seems to).

 

[djjohnr]

Vvc or non?

VVC

 

[bullcrew]

My 36 grip 2 vvc gave me NO issues it's just this 38...SOB broke me off already and tried again recently....shit buy a hopey damper to control bar kick when it hits lol...

 

[ChrisRobin]

My 36 grip 2 vvc gave me NO issues it's just this 38...SOB broke me off already and tried again recently....shit buy a hopey damper to control bar kick when it hits lol...

Yeah something's up for sure. Something is blocking oil flow (for the lack of a better term) periodically.