[FarkinRyan]

Opened one of these up today, there's a photo of the rebound assembly and a brief spiel from Steve here; https://www.instagram.com/p/Bhh-GPohFTk/?taken-by=vorsprungsuspension

The oil in the Grip 2 is not the current R3, the viscosity appears similar but it doesn't have that R3 smell, whatever they are using in the lowers on the damper side has a green tinge to it but isn't Fox Green either. You can definitely notice the spring and IFP when hand-cycling the damper, especially at lower speeds. Would be very surprised if it was actually lower friction than an existing RC2.

 

[ocelot]

Opened one of these up today, there's a photo of the rebound assembly and a brief spiel from Steve here; https://www.instagram.com/p/Bhh-GPohFTk/?taken-by=vorsprungsuspension

The oil in the Grip 2 is not the current R3, the viscosity appears similar but it doesn't have that R3 smell, whatever they are using in the lowers on the damper side has a green tinge to it but isn't Fox Green either. You can definitely notice the spring and IFP when hand-cycling the damper, especially at lower speeds. Would be very surprised if it was actually lower friction than an existing RC2.

It's PTFE (teflon) infused 5wt. Smells a bit "fishy" to me.

 

[toodles]

It's PTFE (teflon) infused 5wt. Smells a bit "fishy" to me.

Serious? Not sure if its the same as the gear I've heard of but that stuff is crazy expensive

 

[Udi]

You can definitely notice the spring and IFP when hand-cycling the damper, especially at lower speeds. Would be very surprised if it was actually lower friction than an existing RC2.

Let the RC2 hoarding begin!

Not sure if its the same as the gear I've heard of but that stuff is crazy expensive

Nah it's not, they've been using this stuff in the current GRIP damper for a while:
Fox 5wt PTFE-infused $18us / 26eur / 40aud for 32oz / 946mL
Usual upcharge outside US for everything mtb-related.

Might be slightly different in GRIP2 from what Ryan says but pricing likely similar.

 

[PJivan]

The review on bikemag it's funny tho..

"The GRIP2-equipped fork is dramatically more sensitive and responsive. It feels like it’s managing oil more effectively, where it’s fast enough to get out of its own way while remaining smooth and controlled. It’s so much better, I was actually pissed at myself for thinking the other one was so amazing. Now, I don’t even want to ride the bike that fork is on"

I totally mean no disrespect for the opinion but how came the best fork so far is now undridable.

my 2 cent, if two products are too similar to notice differences why not use tools to measure claims such as friction, stiffness etc. I don't think there is any shame in that. Every year the same story, the new fork is light years ahead of the past year one, 10 years of "light years ahead leap" in the suspension design, we should be floating on rockgardens while driving with one hand off the bar now.

 

[HAB]

I got a 36 RC2 damper for free a couple weeks ago from a guy who dumped it for Avy. Feeling even better about that now!

 

[Happymtb.fr]

why not use tools to measure claims

Lizards are smart: as long as you keep everything subjective, you can claim (almost) whatever you want.

 

[slimshady]

Lizards are smart: as long as you keep everything subjective, you can claim (almost) whatever you want.

Baseless statistics are always welcomed by tah lizurrddzzz

 

[Flo33]

The review on bikemag it's funny tho..

"The GRIP2-equipped fork is dramatically more sensitive and responsive. It feels like it’s managing oil more effectively, where it’s fast enough to get out of its own way while remaining smooth and controlled. It’s so much better, I was actually pissed at myself for thinking the other one was so amazing. Now, I don’t even want to ride the bike that fork is on"

I totally mean no disrespect for the opinion but how came the best fork so far is now undridable.

my 2 cent, if two products are too similar to notice differences why not use tools to measure claims such as friction, stiffness etc. I don't think there is any shame in that. Every year the same story, the new fork is light years ahead of the past year one, 10 years of "light years ahead leap" in the suspension design, we should be floating on rockgardens while driving with one hand off the bar now.

I had kind of an argument with an editor of another pointless webzine aka marketing page for The Lizzzzards who claimed it to be the most responsive 36 evar. I countered with a Vanilla. His response was like you have to compare apples to apples...

 

[PJivan]

I had kind of an argument with an editor of another pointless webzine aka marketing page for The Lizzzzards who claimed it to be the most responsive 36 evar. I countered with a Vanilla. His response was like you have to compare apples to apples...

True, but this year is almost coil like, next year you will struggle to feel the difference with a coil, in three years we will have a new negative air spring and you will realize that previous years were nothing like coil, but it's finally there, until the year after, and the one after that and so on.

 

[toodles]

True, but this year is almost coil like, next year you will struggle to feel the difference, in three year we will have a new negative air spring and you will realise previous years were nothing like coil but it's finally there, until the year after, and the one after that and so on.

Iguana - "We need a basis for comparison, some analogy for how smooth and good this fork is!"

Komodo - "I know, lets describe how good it is by comparing it to those coil forks we discontinued"

 

[Nick]

Not fox OR damper related, but I'm considering an ACS kit from @PUSHIND this year. I hear they feel like a coil.

 

[ChrisRobin]

Not fox OR damper related, but I'm considering an ACS kit from @PUSHIND this year. I hear they feel like a coil.

I have that kit in my 160mm F36. It's good.

 

[PJivan]

Not fox OR damper related, but I'm considering an ACS kit from @PUSHIND this year. I hear they feel like a coil.

For 450 euros they better be... also nice the fact that they added an air assist, so if it's too coily and you want to have that "almost coil like" feeling, you can inflate that.

 

[FarkinRyan]

It's PTFE (teflon) infused 5wt. Smells a bit "fishy" to me.

Current generation R3 is teflon infused and has a very distinctly weird chemical / air freshener / kiwi fruit smell to it. Whatever is in the new damper is not the same stuff.

Edit - Has been pointed out to me that I'm an idiot, it is Grip fluid because it's a Grip damper, not R3 because it's not an RC2 any more!

I'd say in purely subjective terms that the new sealhead is lower friction than the RC2 one. If the RC2 becomes last years shit and everyone sells them off cheap then I would definitely suggest hoarding them.

On a note related to the burst / torn bladder question, I had to reef a damper out of a current generation 36 today that had ingested so much oil it was swelled up like a balloon when it came out and it still hadn't ruptured. It would actually be a very hard thing for one to rupture in a 36 because the stanchion constrains the bladder so tightly once it swells. i'd also suggest that if you have a current generation one of these that you notice the performance constantly getting worse on no matter how many times you service the lowers; bleed your damper.

 

[toodles]

I'd also suggest that if you have a current generation one of these that you notice the performance constantly getting worse on no matter how many times you service the lowers; buy a new GRIP2 fork.

Obligatory lizard edit.

 

[FarkinRyan]

Yes! Also sell your old one for cheap, it's garbage and no one would ever want one.

 

[kidwoo]

Heh. I has a 36 and a 40 with extras for each. One of them with rapid recovery™


Fight amongst yourselves and film it so I can decide who gets them. Use weapons.

 

[jstuhlman]

Heh. I has a 36 and a 40 with extras for each. One of them with rapid recovery™

Ride bikes with crabon barz and see whose chest gets punctured by their stem last so I can decide who gets them.

ftfy

 

[ocelot]

Current generation R3 is teflon infused and has a very distinctly weird chemical / air freshener / kiwi fruit smell to it. Whatever is in the new damper is not the same stuff.

Edit - Has been pointed out to me that I'm an idiot, it is Grip fluid because it's a Grip damper, not R3 because it's not an RC2 any more!

This is what the bottle of the stuff that goes into the Grip looks like. Find yourself one and you'll understand what I mean by a fishy smell
It almost makes R3 smell perfume-like hahaha

My suspicion of the reason for Fox using PTFE infused oil is that the Grip damper has an unanodized damper tube. Unanodized = cheaper, which was the original goal of the Grip within Fox's product line. What do you all think?

 

[mykel]

..so cheap out on the product, but force the user to utilize pricier consumables.

Seems legit on the lizzurd scale; they milk us the same, just take it from the wallet with different claws.

 

[PJivan]

My suspicion of the reason for Fox using PTFE infused oil is that the Grip damper has an unanodized damper tube. Unanodized = cheaper, which was the original goal of the Grip within Fox's product line. What do you all think?

If so they will eventually offer the anodised one for the 2020/2021, and we will be pissed at ourself for thinking the other one was so amazing

 

[ocelot]

..so cheap out on the product, but force the user to utilize pricier consumables.

Seems legit on the lizzurd scale; they milk us the same, just take it from the wallet with different claws.

PTFE infused is actually more expensive than R3

https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/fox-racing-suspension-fluid-r3-5wt-601707 $39.45

VS

https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/fox-racing-suspension-fluid-5wt-teflon-infused-946ml-602121 $28.43

UNLESS, there's some kind of upcharge for R3 in Europe?!

 

[mykel]

@ocelot = lizzurd?

 

[TN]

Fun fact! @TN actually did the color correction on the spunk in that film!!

that ones was true art

 

[Flo33]

Hey @Steve M or @FarkinRyan you guys happen to had a closer look at the GRIP2? Your service partner in NZL Dougal has kind of a discussion with another guy over at emptybeer over how to set up the damper correctly. Starting after Dougal's post here: https://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspension/2019-fox-36-grip2-1081197-post13960312.html#post13960312

The other guy posted a dyno diagram https://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspension/2019-fox-36-grip2-1081197-post13926188.html#post13926188
and has diametral opinions on the HSC adjuster and his working principal. Care to bring some light into the darkness?

 

[Steve M]

Hey @Steve M or @FarkinRyan you guys happen to had a closer look at the GRIP2? Your service partner in NZL Dougal has kind of a discussion with another guy over at emptybeer over how to set up the damper correctly. Starting after Dougal's post here: https://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspension/2019-fox-36-grip2-1081197-post13960312.html#post13960312

The other guy posted a dyno diagram https://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspension/2019-fox-36-grip2-1081197-post13926188.html#post13926188
and has diametral opinions on the HSC adjuster and his working principal. Care to bring some light into the darkness?

Dougal is a proponent of digressive curves because he likes a firm LS feel. JohnnyC7 likes linear curves with more big-hit support and more openness on small stuff. That's basically what they disagree on there. I'm inclined to agree with the latter.

 

[OGRipper]

^^^Wow that thread is...something.

FWIW it's worth I recently replaced the Fit4 damper that came on my 36 with a new Grip2. It's no secret the Fit4 wasn't great, but the Grip2 damper really transformed the fork. Highly recommended as an upgrade for anyone struggling to get the right feel from an existing fork.

 

[Bike078]

Dougal is a proponent of digressive curves because he likes a firm LS feel. JohnnyC7 likes linear curves with more big-hit support and more openness on small stuff. That's basically what they disagree on there. I'm inclined to agree with the latter.

Does johnnyc7's explanation hold true for other fork brands with hi/low compression adjustability as well? Asking because I don't know much about these things. Salamat.

 

[Flo33]

Dougal is a proponent of digressive curves because he likes a firm LS feel. JohnnyC7 likes linear curves with more big-hit support and more openness on small stuff. That's basically what they disagree on there. I'm inclined to agree with the latter.

Thx, nice conclusion. I was a bit surprised by his suggestions to crank in low speed needles for both directions before ever touching the shim stack preloads. This is the complete opposite of what I found useful on the RC2 for the last 12 years and what you explained in detail in the high/low speed damping TT episodes.

What about Dougal's findings on the effectiveness of the HSC settings beyond his measured 0.2 mm/~8 adjuster wheel clicks, do you agree? Did you find some time between smashing pots to dyno a GRIP2?

I only have 3 runs on mine and already found the FOX starting point to be a good starting point, but if what he said is true, then the HSC starting at 10 clicks out of closed means no preload on the stack. I'm running 7 clicks atm, in below freezing weather. Time will tell ehere it goes with rising temps on the one hand and the coil in the other leg.

 

[Happymtb.fr]

Any opinion on preloaded vs stiffer stack?
I have been experimenting lately and found that I prefer the preloadless stiffer stack on both fork and rear shock. It feels like it hangs less over roots and stuff and thus feels faster.

 

[Katz]

I had been setting my RC2 (and now Grip2) like Mr. Dougal suggests without giving it much thought, since digressive valving seems to work well on automobiles (my previous hobby). Then I started to experiment after seeing posts from people like @Udi and @Steve M suggesting the opposite.

Now I ride with HSC 7 clicks from closed with LSC closer towards open, and the fork is more supple yet supportive than my previous almost wide open HSC setting.

It was an eye-opener for me, so thank you all for sharing your experience and knowledge. Beer is on me if I ever had a chance to meet you guys in person

 

[StiHacka]

I had been setting my RC2 (and now Grip2) like Mr. Dougal suggests without giving it much thought, since digressive valving seems to work well on automobiles (my previous hobby). Then I started to experiment after seeing posts from people like @Udi and @Steve M suggesting the opposite.

Now I ride with HSC 7 clicks from closed with LSC closer towards open, and the fork is more supple yet supportive than my previous almost wide open HSC setting.

It was an eye-opener for me, so thank you all for sharing your experience and knowledge. Beer is on me if I ever had a chance to meet you guys in person

Not sure if much related, same experience with shocks. I now run my twin-tube shocks with HSC closed and LSC closer towards open.

 

[Jm_]

These settings seem crazy to me and indicative of the traditional over-damped HSC that comes in most factory products. I've almost always ended up running most of these "open" with the LSC, or "trail mode" or "position selector" because any other setting was harsh and I just dealt with the dive and excessive chassis movement. I didn't know any better. When I was finally able to get the correct amount of HSC, I then ran a bunch of LSC for chassis stability, which IME is far superior to all the crazy movement I got before. It seems to me that most manufacturers don't do this for liability purposes, as it'd be too easy to slam the shock on a high-speed event without enough HSC when a heavier rider rode it or unanticipated situation happened.

 

[Kanye West]

I can attest to a substantial change in friction character with the Grip2 damper over the RC2 on a 2018 36 having just done the damper swap recently (and nothing else at the same time).


Should also point out that almost no successful off-road suspension from an automotive standpoint has used a digressive damping system. Lots of bypass and lots of valving is typical.

 

[Katz]

Should also point out that almost no successful off-road suspension from an automotive standpoint has used a digressive damping system. Lots of bypass and lots of valving is typical.

Interesting.

My automotive off-road experience is limited to rock crawling, and my (casual) observation was regarding to street and weekend track days. Digressive compression valving seemed to work well controlling roll and pitch, while allowing me to hit kerbs at the apex and exit without spilling coffee all over my lap.

But you are right your example is more relevant to MTB suspension.

Now I'm curious how damper valving for on- and off-road motorcycles compare.

 

[Jm_]

Interesting.

My automotive off-road experience is limited to rock crawling, and my (casual) observation was regarding to street and weekend track days. Digressive compression valving seemed to work well controlling roll and pitch, while allowing me to hit kerbs at the apex and exit without spilling coffee all over my lap.

But you are right your example is more relevant to MTB suspension.

Now I'm curious how damper valving for on- and off-road motorcycles compare.

Is this where people get mixed up in the characteristics of the high speed damping, as in the piston must be digressive (open further with more force) with the end effect not being digressive due to the fluid flow through the orifice, as in even as it opens further, the increase in velocity is still increasing the total damping force?

 

[Flo33]

Lots of bypass and lots of valving is typical.

Hey Hack, could you explain what you mean by bypass?

Edit: found an explanation https://www.offroadxtreme.com/engine-tech/brakes-suspension/inside-shock-tuning-how-it-works/

 

[Katz]

Is this where people get mixed up in the characteristics of the high speed damping, as in the piston must be digressive (open further with more force) with the end effect not being digressive due to the fluid flow through the orifice, as in even as it opens further, the increase in velocity is still increasing the total damping force?

You lost me. I need moar coffeez.

I get that total damping force keeps increasing as the piston/shaft speed increases, and digressive valving only decreases the rate of increase. I equate it with trying to walk in a waist-deep pool. Resistance from water increases substantially as soon as you try to run. Digressive valving is like getting your body sideways as you increase your walking/running speed (if that's possible). You'd still have linear/progressive valving if you have large beer belly.

My misunderstanding/ignorance was how high-speed and low-speed adjustments interacted each other. After watching Vorsprung's episode 21 video and reading a bunch of other stuff, my take-away (could be totally wrong - feel free to correct me) was that, without enough preload on the high-speed shim stack, the shims start deflecting prematurely and some of damper fluid ends up totally bypassing the low-speed orifice while the piston/shaft speed is still in the low-speed region, making the low-speed adjustment less effective.

 

[Jm_]

You lost me. I need moar coffeez.

I get that total damping force keeps increasing as the piston/shaft speed increases, and digressive valving only decreases the rate of increase. I equate it with trying to walk in a waist-deep pool. Resistance from water increases substantially as soon as you try to run. Digressive valving is like getting your body sideways as you increase your walking/running speed (if that's possible). You'd still have linear/progressive valving if you have large beer belly.

My misunderstanding/ignorance was how high-speed and low-speed adjustments interacted each other. After watching Vorsprung's episode 21 video and reading a bunch of other stuff, my take-away (could be totally wrong - feel free to correct me) was that, without enough preload on the high-speed shim stack, the shims start deflecting prematurely and some of damper fluid ends up totally bypassing the low-speed orifice while the piston/shaft speed is still in the low-speed region, making the low-speed adjustment less effective.

I was only trying to point out where some of the confusion seems to come from, but it sounds like I confuzed it moar. That's been my understanding as well, that some preload is necessary.