[rockofullr]

Really France, gettin all controversial?

What started as a simple traffic ticket has now escalated into a national political drama in France. At issue are individual liberties, Islamic dress and polygamy -- and it's a combination that could prove helpful to President Nicolas Sarkozy and his efforts to pass a law that would ban the full Islamic veil in all public places.

It all began on April 2 in the western city of Nantes, when traffic police cited a woman for driving her car while dressed in a full face-covering Islamic veil. The police said her garment, a niqab, which leaves only a slit for the eyes, compromised her safety and that of other drivers.

The woman refused to pay the $30 fine. Instead, she called a news conference and denounced what she called the infringement of her rights.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126286832&ft=1&f=1004

LYON, FRANCE -- France, which regards itself as the cradle of human rights, is moving to impose legal restrictions on Muslim women who wear Afghan-style burqas or other full-face veils.

In addition to the restrictions on full veils, Gerin said, his commission will urge the government to hand down new guidance for doctors, teachers and mayors who have to deal with what he called "threats and violence" from fundamentalist Muslims. History or biology teachers frequently are challenged by fundamentalist adolescents whose religious beliefs are contradicted by what they hear in school, he said, and in some communities half the girls in junior high physical education classes refuse to participate on religious grounds.

"Their ideas are not in conformity with our society," he added.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/15/AR2010011503775.html

 

[jonKranked]

well we still let old people drive.

 

[rockofullr]

IMO the whole driving thing is ridiculous. If she can pass her driving test with that thing on then she can drive.

The second article is the more interesting one. At first glance this seems to be an infringement on civil rights of Muslims but there are some interesting points made by the supporters of this ban.

I can see the problems that fundamentalist Islamic communities are creating in France but I just don't see how banning a piece of clothing will fix anything.

Edit: Belgium is close to passing a similar law.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=125865287&ps=rs

I thought this was a pretty damning commentary on the law.

Akhandaf, the Muslim feminist, has a different question. She doesn't argue with the idea that under those veils may be some women who are being oppressed by conservative Islamic traditions. But if the Belgian government truly wants to liberate them, she wonders, why pass a law that locks them up — in jail if they defy the coming burqa ban, or in their homes if they obey it?

 

[Damo]

When I shifted to France, I tried my best to conform to it's cultures.

I would expect anybody who wants to live in another country to do the same. Why shift there otherwise?

Why should they be allowed to wear burqas?

 

[dante]

well we still let old people drive.

And we still let Asians drive too....

It all began on April 2 in the western city of Nantes, when traffic police cited a woman for driving her car while dressed in a full face-covering Islamic veil. The police said her garment, a niqab, which leaves only a slit for the eyes, compromised her safety and that of other drivers.

 

[jonKranked]

And we still let Asians drive too....

well that was going to be my original joke, but i was feeling not very racist today

 

[rockofullr]

Why should they be allowed to wear burqas?

They don't ban the Jewish Yarmulke or other articles of clothing worn in accordance with a certain faith so why single out Muslims?

Edit: This debate would be different if the law was aimed at increasing safety while driving but I don't know if driving with a Burqa will be prohibited. It seems like the idea is to ban the dress in some public places, whatever that means.

 

[$tinkle]

The second article is the more interesting one. At first glance this seems to be an infringement on civil rights of Muslims but there are some interesting points made by the supporters of this ban.

it's not so much an infringement upon civil rights of muslims, but of *female* muslims, which is ironically self-imposed when in possession of a vag

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=125865287&ps=rs

I thought this was a pretty damning commentary on the law.

and i thought this was roflburka funny

Akhandaf, the Muslim feminist...

only outside an islamic nation could she exist

 

[Pesqueeb]

And we still let Asians drive too....

It all began on April 2 in the western city of Nantes, when traffic police cited a woman for driving her car while dressed in a full face-covering Islamic veil. The police said her garment, a niqab, which leaves only a slit for the eyes, compromised her safety and that of other drivers.

And I approve.

What those lousy frogs ought to be working on is banning speedos and banana hammocks.

 

[rockofullr]

it's not so much an infringement upon civil rights of muslims, but of *female* muslims, which is ironically self-imposed when in possession of a vag

That is why this issue is interesting to me. From one perspective banning the veil/burqa would increase the freedom of Islamic women. From another point of view it restricts their freedom to wear whatever they want on their head.

 

[$tinkle]

since this is a 'human rights' issue, who's imposing restrictions on the muslim women's human rights in this scenario?

For instance, Gerin said, doctors at the Mother and Child Hospital in Lyon told him during a visit Thursday that they are threatened several times a week by angry Muslim men who refuse to allow their pregnant wives or daughters to be treated by male doctors, even for emergency births when nobody else is available. "The scope of the problem is a lot broader than I thought," he said at a news conference here summing up his findings. "It is insidious."

and then this

Moreover, he added, it could lead to embarrassing situations with foreigners, such as Persian Gulf billionaires who arrive in Paris with their fully veiled wives.

yep, heads are going to roll.


oh, yes i did.

 

[$tinkle]

tell ya's what: let's meet halfway on this:

(possibly work-safe, but bathroom safe it is)
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/sexy_burqa.jpg

 

[rockofullr]

Now there's some Islamic dress I can get behind!

 

[BurlyShirley]

Suddenly France has the balls?
We can't show Mohammed in a salmon helmet on TV because were too afraid of "the terrists", and France is making laws to shut those nutjobs down?

And we are worried about some womens' personal freedom to express their religion? Some blacks willingly fought alongside the south in civil war too. F*ck em.

 

[bohorec]

I don't see a problem here. You would also get fined for driving around in batman's outfit.

 

[jonKranked]

I don't see a problem here. You would also get fined for driving around in batman's outfit.

Batman doesn't play by the rules.

 

[valve bouncer]

Well France (and Britain) you wanted a f*cking empire.

 

[Damo]

What about ninjas?

We can still see you!

 

[Straya]

These dudes must be mega conflicted by this concept.

 

[JohnE]

When I shifted to France, I tried my best to conform to it's cultures.

I would expect anybody who wants to live in another country to do the same. Why shift there otherwise?

Why should they be allowed to wear burqas?

This needs to go into the "This is Alabama, we speak English" thread...

 

[Ciaran]

I don't see a problem here. You would also get fined for driving around in batman's outfit.

Would you really? Seriously. And how do you know this?

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Would you really? Seriously. And how do you know this?

His real name is Bruce Wang.

 

[stevew]

They don't ban the Jewish Yarmulke or other articles of clothing worn in accordance with a certain faith so why single out Muslims?

since when does a yarmulke cover the face?

france...fvck yeah.

 

[rockofullr]

since when does a yarmulke cover the face?

What does covering the face have to do with anything?

This ban is not focused on driving.

 

[bohorec]

Would you really? Seriously. And how do you know this?

Driving while wearing face-covering clothing is traffic offense in several european countries (not sure about france). Friend was fined for wearing a face mask during carnival celebrations.

 

[jonKranked]

looks like Belgium has decided to follow suit:

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/belgium/100429/belgium-burqa-ban

 

[rockofullr]

looks like Belgium has decided to follow suit:

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/belgium/100429/belgium-burqa-ban

I wonder what these euros are hoping to accomplish by restricting peoples right to wear silly hats.

Maybe Arizona should try banning sombreros and see if that causes Mexicans to assimilate faster and use proper immigration channels.

 

[$tinkle]

Maybe Arizona should try banning sombreros and see if that causes Mexicans to assimilate faster and use proper immigration channels.

or hardhats?

 

[MikeD]

looks like Belgium has decided to follow suit:

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/belgium/100429/belgium-burqa-ban

Or, rather, follow burqa.

I need to remember burqa as a Scrabble word. q, no u.

Anyhow, how can you phrase a law banning this clothing? With respect to driving, I can see language about vision, but it seems rather difficult to define how this can be done. Then again, maybe France is willing to be as blunt about the point of the law as necessary. Still, you'll end up with clothing that skirts (hah) the line of legality. Barely legal burqas. (Does this mean people will have to start paying for photos of girls wearing the bulkiest, naughtiest, most illegal black sacks on the Web??)

I think this may be much more of a social cure than a legal cure. It'll take effort, possibly by/through the government, but not by passing laws.

 

[DaveW]

When I shifted to France, I tried my best to conform to it's cultures.

I would expect anybody who wants to live in another country to do the same. Why shift there otherwise?

Why should they be allowed to wear burqas?

Sh*t given some of the clowns that moved into your valley, they probably think your a local and the real locals welcome you as a breath of fresh air from les roast bifs.

 

[DaveW]

And we are worried about some womens' personal freedom to express their religion? Some blacks willingly fought alongside the south in civil war too. F*ck em.

Umm as far as I'm aware the head gear is not actually a part of the Islamic religion, but more part of the Arabian culture?
Although the line is pretty damn blurred between the two these days so I could be wrong.

 

[stoney]

Or, rather, follow burqa.

I need to remember burqa as a Scrabble word. q, no u.

Yeah, there is a Q there. But not in back to back order which is what I think you meant.

 

[$tinkle]

pillow fight!

France has first 'burka rage' incident

The astonishing scene unfolded during a weekend shopping trip after the woman lawyer took offence at the attire of a fellow shopper resulting in argument during which the pair came to blows before being arrested.

It came as racial tensions grow in the country as it prepares to introduce a total ban on burkas and other forms of religious dress which cover the face.

A 26-year-old Muslim convert was walking through the store in Trignac, near Nantes, in the western Loire-Atlantique region, when she overhead the woman lawyer making "snide remarks about her black burka". A police officer close to the case said: "The lawyer said she was not happy seeing a fellow shopper wearing a veil and wanted the ban introduced as soon as possible."

At one point the lawyer, who was out with her daughter, is said to have likened the Muslim woman to Belphegor, a horror demon character well known to French TV viewers. Belphegor is said to haunt the Louvre museum in Paris and frequently covers up his hideous features using a mask.

An argument started before the older woman is said to have ripped the other woman's veil off. As they came to blows, the lawyer's daughter joined in.

"The shop manager and the husband of the Muslim woman moved to break up the fighting," the officer said. All three were arrested and taken to the local gendarmerie for questioning.

so i'm guessing this is what qualifies as islamic pr0n?

 

[Pesqueeb]

so i'm guessing this is what qualifies as islamic pr0n?

I thought this was Islamic p0rn? I wonder if Electric Six were playing on the malls sound system.