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Frankenbrakes and brake improvement discussion

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Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,918
1,213
Also, for Saint 820:
62mm lever blade. Lever pivot to MC starts at 11mm and drops to 8mm as the cam does its thing.
Thanks for that! Does it drop to 8mm soon after the start of the stroke and roughly stay there? The spreadsheet will eventually need some corrections for both lever arms' angle change in relation to the piston rod (and finger) as levers move through their travel but maybe someone else can nerd out on that. We'll need to add a main-pivot-to-bar-center distance column. In any case, very interesting that M820 peak force is pretty well identical to the DRT (with your measurements at least). If you can double check M820 slave piston measurements that'd be great too, 15/17mm is written currently.

If you can take a photo of what you measured on the lever exactly, it'd be helpful so the other guys (Nick, StiHacka) could check their Zee and M820. Troy and I suspect that Deore has a slightly different cam profile (and that may not be the only one) so it'd be good if we could help others measure theirs. Also since it's a finicky measurement, more datapoints would be great.

@Flo33 this one's for you too, if you can snap some pics when you measure your MC / seal and lever geo, it will help encourage other people to measure their similar parts. It's the whole "teach a man to fish" thing. If enough people post pics like @toodles did, I can collate them into a little "how to measure your own brake and contribute" guide.
I may be on crack but it really does feel like they don't have as much piston travel. That's dictated by ring size though right? Shouldn't that be the same?
Yeah but tiny differences in that stuff can impact rollback - piston diameter differences you can't see with your eyes, and differences in even rubber durometer of the seal (as well as its exact CS etc). The shape of the gland has the biggest impact, but the seal and piston matter too.

It'd be hard to perfectly match OEM spec even if you tried, so it's totally possible they could be slightly better or worse (hopefully slightly better like you say). Keep us updated once they've had a good thrash. If you have a stock identical brake on the other end, you should be able to actually measure the rollback with a digital caliper - I think @troy measured some of his, he's got a column in the nerd sheet for it.
 

HAB

Chelsea from Seattle
Apr 28, 2007
11,592
2,028
Seattle
I don't have a complete m820 brake to measure, just a single lever, so I'm no help on piston measurements. The drop from 11 to 8mm isn't super abrupt, I'd say it hits 8 around when the brake would really engage, though it's a bit hard to judge without a caliper hooked up.
 

Flo33

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2015
2,139
1,367
Styria
I'll see what I can do.
Also I have a M800, a M810, a M785, a Hayes Stroker and a first gen T1 sitting around. Maybe I find some time...
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,918
1,213
@9M119
They're decent, Formula metal pads for the wet as HAB said. Minor downsides to that brake are small pads as with all current Formula brakes, bit hard to get the lever reach close enough for small hands (but fine for big hands), and potential rotor rub / uneven pad wear if the slave pistons / seals are tired. However those parts are very reasonably priced and generally easy to get if needed. Nicely built brake and pretty reliable.
 

HAB

Chelsea from Seattle
Apr 28, 2007
11,592
2,028
Seattle
I've tried Goodridge metal and EBC Gold pads in Formula brakes too, FWIW. Power was down appreciably with the EBC, I'd be hard pressed to tell a difference between the Formula and Goodridge. Since the Formula are easy to find, as good as anything else, and cheap-ish, I don't see any reason to run anything else.

I agree with everything that Udi said. The newer pull style ROR levers are ergonomically better (even for me, with XL/XXL glove size hands) but the older ones are still good brakes.
 

Nick

My name is Nick
Sep 21, 2001
24,933
16,537
where the trails are
Seems I have cracked a piston in my caliper.

Fuuuuuuuuu!!!!
Aren't those pretty recent warranty replacements?
Was it a immediate total brake failure? Any crash involved?
How did you determine that's what happened? Is it visible?
Are you sure? Maybe you could try it now.
 

Da Peach

Outwitted by a rodent
Jul 2, 2002
13,783
5,225
North Van
Aren't those pretty recent warranty replacements?
Was it a immediate total brake failure? Any crash involved?
How did you determine that's what happened? Is it visible?
Are you sure? Maybe you could try it now.
They are a year old. I was trying it now most of yesterday evening.

They were weeping oil after I bled them last night. I couldnt quite push one piston al the way back in and so was getting brake drag. No good. So, I tried to clean the exposed edges and get it to retract. No dice.

Tried to remove some oil, and as I was pushing the problem piston back in, the calliper started puking oil.

Looking closely, it’s cracked.

I suspect it was a bit cracked, then became very cracked.

Didn’t know that was a risk, to be honest...
 

Nick

My name is Nick
Sep 21, 2001
24,933
16,537
where the trails are
They are a year old. I was trying it now most of yesterday evening.

They were weeping oil after I bled them last night. I couldnt quite push one piston al the way back in and so was getting brake drag. No good. So, I tried to clean the exposed edges and get it to retract. No dice.

Tried to remove some oil, and as I was pushing the problem piston back in, the calliper started puking oil.

Looking closely, it’s cracked.

I suspect it was a bit cracked, then became very cracked.

Didn’t know that was a risk, to be honest...
Sounds like another round of warranty-bingo is in your future.
Ask your LBS to ask for an upgrade. Saints, new XTRs or whatever.

or maybe try those aftermarket pistons from China?
 

chris_f

Monkey
Jun 20, 2007
390
409
I've heard good thing about uberbike race matrix and sintered pads too. I'll give them a rip at some point since they're cheaper than the formula ones off CRC.
I'd pass, if I were you. Me and my regular riding buddy ran them. Me on Hope V4s, him on the Code RSCs. They developed a strange pulsing sensation after a while. We tried different OEM pads and the race matrix back to back. The Uberbike pads seemed to be the problem.
 

canadmos

Cake Tease
May 29, 2011
22,029
21,583
Canaderp
What's the recommended method for baking shimano pads?

I've got near brand new pads in my Saints that are already garbage.
 

mykel

closer to Periwinkle
Apr 19, 2013
5,494
4,218
sw ontario canada
What's the recommended method for baking shimano pads?
Preheat oven to 400 F.
Toss with olive oil, salt, pepper and a clove of finely minced garlic.
Place on a bed of sliced / shredded leek.
Bake at 400 for 20 minutes, reduce to 325 and continue baking for another 40 minutes. :busted:











Seriously though. From what I have heard and remember.

400 for 20 - 30 minutes. Have heard as long as 60...
I would be a little 'fraid of 60 minutes, seems a bit hard on binders.
soooo...
Wipe them down with alcohol to remove contaminants, then let them dry for 20 minutes.
Into a preheated 400 oven for 20 minutes.
Profit.
 
Last edited:

canadmos

Cake Tease
May 29, 2011
22,029
21,583
Canaderp
At the risk of being banned, can I ask what is wrong with Sram brakes?

I'm about to start contemplating parts for the new bike and the Guides that came on my Transition have actually been decent. Never once have they decided to not work in a rock garden, nor have they leaked fluid over brand new pads.

Though I do not like that they use dot brake fluid.

Do those new Formulas really only come out in September?
 

canadmos

Cake Tease
May 29, 2011
22,029
21,583
Canaderp
Go get them really hot and report back.
Is that with the lever problem in hot ambient temps? I thought they fixed that?

I leave the bike locked in my car with the windows up at work all the time and have had no problems.

They did fade pretty bad on this long steep trail I rode a few weeks back. But I was dragging them like a bitch, with 180mm rotors and I'm a fatass.
 

HAB

Chelsea from Seattle
Apr 28, 2007
11,592
2,028
Seattle
More than one person I know had the pistons bind up and not retract fully after really cooking them.
 

Da Peach

Outwitted by a rodent
Jul 2, 2002
13,783
5,225
North Van
Sounds like another round of warranty-bingo is in your future.
Ask your LBS to ask for an upgrade. Saints, new XTRs or whatever.

or maybe try those aftermarket pistons from China?
Well, they're now in limbo, so fingers crossed. If I get a new set, I'm either going to try out those Curas, or I'm going to try and take advantage of a Magura hookup I might have.

I think I'll come out ahead either way.

For now, I've got my Saints bolted onto my Nomad. I've got them all nicely bled and they're working quite well.

I just can't believe how short the rear hose is. They were set up for my TR450 and the hose is about 6" shorter than it ought to be for my Nomad. Slightly unsightly, but no obvious danger of terminal hose yank syndrome.

So what's everybody's favourite flavour of Magura? The 11-pad quad piston MT7?
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,918
1,213
I'm either going to try out those Curas, or I'm going to try and take advantage of a Magura hookup I might have.
I'd probably hold out for the Cura4, Formula levers in particular are built much nicer than Magura, unless of course you really need the 11 pads.
 

Happymtb.fr

Turbo Monkey
Feb 9, 2016
2,074
1,442
SWE
Some cool stuff in the article about the new Hayes dominion brakes, especially these 2 graphs comparing different brands:
p4pb16077151.jpg

p4pb16077152.jpg

These do not include heat management off course but it is still valuable info hopefully gathered with the same protocol.

The new brakes from Hayes seem to have a very short stroke and good power delivered rather progressively from the above. The future will tell about heat management, ergonomy and reliability...
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,858
7,106
borcester rhymes
will be interesting to hear rear world reviews (ie not from RC) about the a4. Would be nice to have a competitor.

Just put new pads in the mt5s. They are considerably more bitey than the factory "performance" pads. This could be the answer to kicking these brakes up a few notches.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
20,189
10,720
AK
We just need brakes to function as generators to charge up E-bike batteries.
 

Lelandjt

adorbs
Apr 4, 2008
2,639
998
Breckenridge, CO/Lahaina,HI
The news Hayes ticks all my boxes (even weight) except they're 4 piston. My experience has been more pistons is more chance of uneven piston push/retraction. Is it really worth it for a longer pad?
 

Wuffles

Monkey
Feb 24, 2016
157
98
The news Hayes ticks all my boxes (even weight) except they're 4 piston. My experience has been more pistons is more chance of uneven piston push/retraction. Is it really worth it for a longer pad?
In a word, yes. The problem with two piston designs is that you always have an "overturning" force on the brake pad from friction, so you will never get even pad force and wear. With a properly designed four piston setup, you can get the trailing/larger piston applying a greater force to counteract the frictional overturning and get a much more even pad wear and force.

The downside is that yes, you do have to pay attention to the cylinders and lube 'em up if one starts sticking, but the performance benefits are worth it.
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,858
7,106
borcester rhymes
What pads did you put in?
i put in 8.R. I believe the mt7 comes with 8.p (performance. The mt5s come with 9.p, and available is 9.c. Most people say the mt7 with 8.p have adequate bite and stopping power, so I have a hard time believing the 9.p and 8.p are the same pad compound, because that means that simply splitting the pads in two gives huge increases in bite. I think I got mine off merlin for like $25 an end.
 

Happymtb.fr

Turbo Monkey
Feb 9, 2016
2,074
1,442
SWE
I am having second thoughts about the new Hayes brakes, specially about the fact that the reservoir is below the master cylinder... intuitively I would say that any eventual air bubble will have quite some difficulties to escape the MC to the reservoir. Don't you think?