[Udi]

Any consensus on the best rotors? Value vs performance vs weight? Or just get XT Icetech and forget the rest?

Not sure if anyone replied, I rate the icetech performance/cooling and they're light too, but they're more prone to bending in a crash due to the alloy core, and you need to be conscious of wear life as things get hairy when you get close to (or down to) the core.

I've been running the Formula 203mm rotors with alloy carrier for a while and really like them (very light: 143g @ 203mm), though they're expensive, which hurts if/when you wreck one. They make cheaper ones which work decent too but they're heavier.

Others I know seem to happily run Hope (including some very regular riders) and they seem to work well, although Gary doesn't like them and he explained why a few pages back - some of his developed play. The ones on my buddies' bikes are still good though.

 

[HAB]

@Sandro @Flo33 @slimshady if you see a silver pair of DRT pop up please send this gentleman a PM.

No no no send it to me first. Black or gray would also be acceptable.

 

[Nick]

You, the great Nick, being unable to get the exact color brake you want right now somehow equating to the company being "unable to get their shit together" is silly. I'm at least most of the things you've accused me of, but what jonKranked (#1677) said re: manufacturing is the reality. Upon receiving and inspecting the brake I felt their profit margin for the material and manufacturing quality (especially given the small volume output) is very likely on the low side.

I'll put the fanboy cap on when I can trade the lame thankyou messages for cash. Nothing in it for me.
I bought mine in 2017 and I'm still very happy, but YMMV.

@Sandro @Flo33 @slimshady if you see a silver pair of DRT pop up please send this gentleman a PM.

I've been watching for these things to be available, albeit passively, for months. In the interest of being CONSTRUCTIVE, maybe they should offer 1 option until they can make corrections that allow them to supply brakes. Options that are effectively vapor makes no sense to anyone and I bet anyone would be ok with black or silver.

Their kickstarter was over two years ago. They claim to have been building brakes for almost 20 years (?) and they still have 9 month lead times on their most in demand product. If they choose to make small batches that's cool with me, I'm just surprised that would be the path they take when there the mtb brake market has so many quality issues across almost all brands and seem to crave a super high quality option.

I don't think discussing this, on a forum where we discuss shit all day every day, should bother anyone. What I do take a bit of exception to is hollow arguments and blind support. That fact that you're still happy and I assume trouble free after 3 years of use makes the lack of availability more frustrating to us American whiners who replace Saints every 2 years.

 

[Udi]

You've already received multiple thorough explanations from jonKranked regarding why there are long wait times.

However it's also been done to death in this thread and discussed multiple times before (by myself and others) - so complaining about it again isn't helping anyone nor achieving anything. If you want to rant about it, send your rant to the company, who knows it might even encourage some production increases. They are German though and their responses reflect this (not a positive thing, I hope it's changed - but it's also inherent).

Like I said if you really want some, this community is actually a great help - I too was looking passively like you, which rarely works with high-demand items. Possibly of interest to you, they gave me the same waiting time as everyone else, but they prioritise past orders (from distributors and retailers as well as consumers, I believe it is managed based on order date) - so my pair popped up at a retailer they had (likely) promised sets to long before I tried to order direct - even though I couldn't buy any from them at the time. It's just the way it is.

If you think I'm one for hollow arguments and blind support then you've missed the topic of the thread, which was originally about mixing various manufacturers' parts to try and build a product that worked. If you want to replicate a product of the same design and quality for 2/3 the price and with shorter wait times, please put me on your waiting list.

If you want to blame someone, blame @HAB

Edit - I thought the same thing as you about the wild colors (I would have accepted any plain ones), but they seem to sell everything they make regardless, so in hindsight I don't think it'd change much. I suspect when there's occasionally a strange color left at a shop it's because the rest of their order sold fast, then even the red ones no one wants get purchased soon after by someone with bad taste like @Flo33 .

 

[jonKranked]

I've been watching for these things to be available, albeit passively, for months. In the interest of being CONSTRUCTIVE, maybe they should offer 1 option until they can make corrections that allow them to supply brakes. Options that are effectively vapor makes no sense to anyone and I bet anyone would be ok with black or silver.

Their kickstarter was over two years ago. They claim to have been building brakes for almost 20 years (?) and they still have 9 month lead times on their most in demand product. If they choose to make small batches that's cool with me, I'm just surprised that would be the path they take when there the mtb brake market has so many quality issues across almost all brands and seem to crave a super high quality option.

I don't think discussing this, on a forum where we discuss shit all day every day, should bother anyone. What I do take a bit of exception to is hollow arguments and blind support. That fact that you're still happy and I assume trouble free after 3 years of use makes the lack of availability more frustrating to us American whiners who replace Saints every 2 years.

you're using this term, but i don't think you know what it means. you're implying there's something inherently *WRONG* with the process or product.

 

[Flo33]

No no no send it to me first. Black or gray would also be acceptable.

Noticed.

 

[toodles]

@Nick
Red Direttissima is in stock at r2-bike.com...
I got my blue one in 4 days after ordering in January. I want a red one. Do you perhaps want a blue one? Let's do it!

All this aside, why the fuck are they doing different colours instead of just heaps of one colour? Goddammit people. One retailer has a red rear in stock and another has a piss-yellow front.

 

[johnbryanpeters]

All this aside, why the fuck are they doing different colours instead of just heaps of one colour? Goddammit people. One retailer has a red rear in stock and another has a piss-yellow front.

Yeah, make sure your lipstick matches your skirt.

 

[HAB]

All this aside, why the fuck are they doing different colours instead of just heaps of one colour? Goddammit people. One retailer has a red rear in stock and another has a piss-yellow front.

Ronald McDonald must be thrilled.

 

[Da Peach]

Yeah, make sure your lipstick matches your skirt.

The activity we enjoy is very fashion-oriented. I’m not as guilty as some, but my grips match my brakes...

I suppose one can argue that customers who are shelling out the big bucks for reliability only shouldn’t care about aesthetics.

It does seem silly to go all out on the matchy matchy. Surprising that TS would bother with such frivolity. Do they need that sizzle?

 

[StiHacka]

It does seem silly to go all out on the matchy matchy. Surprising that TS would bother with such frivolity. Do they need that sizzle?

Stop whining, my north american comrade!

 

[Flo33]

All this aside, why the fuck are they doing different colours instead of just heaps of one colour? Goddammit people. One retailer has a red rear in stock and another has a piss-yellow front.

Trickstuff stopped selling different colours, but some retailers have some stock left or maybe can order different colours. I'll ask...

 

[Flo33]

Trickstuff stopped selling different colours, but some retailers have some stock left or maybe can order different colours. I'll ask...

Ok, Trickstuff dropped all colour options but black and silver to shorten lead times. All colour options available at retailers are left over stock from earlier on.

 

[Nick]

I'll ask...

Ok, Trickstuff dropped all colour options but black and silver to shorten lead times.

Who did you ask?

 

[Flo33]

Trickstuff. The owner, to be precise.

 

[Kurt_80]

Trickstuff. The owner, to be precise.

Honest question.... has he read this thread?

 

[Flo33]

Honest question.... has he read this thread?

Honest answer... I don't know. I can ask on ze biggest sherman forum, where he is pretty active.

 

[Kurt_80]

Honest answer... I don't know. I can ask on ze biggest sherman forum, where he is pretty active.

Cool, I'm curious if he knows (surely he must) the context in which his brake exists...I.e. people are so underwhelmed by current brakes they will do all sorts of experimental and unnatural unions to try and get something better.

If he knows this... would he consider increasing production?

Would he consider a less weight optimised version? A few here (and I count myself amongst them) have mentioned that they could live with an extra 200g if it meant they cost $200 less.

 

[jonKranked]

FWIW the lead times on brakes on the TS website are 2-3 months.

 

[jonKranked]

If he knows this... would he consider increasing production?

go back and look at my post on how much it would likely cost to increase capacity.

 

[Sandwich]

do we have a favorite knockoff SRAM bleed kit? I'd like to buy one but I'm not keen on $70. Sorry if I missed it earlier in the thread.

 

[jonKranked]

Would he consider a less weight optimised version?

being a german and a mountain biker, my guess would be no. not that that would necessarily have any significant impact on production times.

 

[slimshady]

do we have a favorite knockoff SRAM bleed kit? I'd like to buy one but I'm not keen on $70. Sorry if I missed it earlier in the thread.

Lurk on eBay for Quaxar universal bleeding kits. Best bang for the buck IMHO.

 

[Flo33]

do we have a favorite knockoff SRAM bleed kit? I'd like to buy one but I'm not keen on $70. Sorry if I missed it earlier in the thread.

This one is excellent. Used it for my R0Rs

Bleedkit Bleeding Kit Professional Edge Set for Sram 2017+/- / Formula Brakes | Service Kits Shop

Buy Bleeding Kit Professional Edge Set for Sram 2017+/- / Formula Brakes at BEST PRICE ✓ Order Bleedkit Service Kits at Bike-Discount now! ➤ Bleedkit Online Shop

www.bike-discount.de

 

[Flo33]

Cool, I'm curious if he knows (surely he must) the context in which his brake exists...I.e. people are so underwhelmed by current brakes they will do all sorts of experimental and unnatural unions to try and get something better.

If he knows this... would he consider increasing production?

Would he consider a less weight optimised version? A few here (and I count myself amongst them) have mentioned that they could live with an extra 200g if it meant they cost $200 less.

He is doing a lot of experiments himself and owns nearly every contemporary brake available. They don't have the capacity nor the interest and intention to do something different. They have the lightest reliable and working brake, a really good trail/dh brake and the most powerful brake available. And their order books are filled for the next 6 to 9 months. Why should they change anything?

 

[jonKranked]

Why should they change anything to satisfy the internet hordes?

fixed.

 

[jonKranked]

here's the other thing, i'm not sure the ROI would be there if capacity increased. sure there's demand, but is the demand artificial due to product scarcity? given the precision / quality of product they are after, i sorta doubt it would be cost effective to scale up production.

 

[konastab01]

Just looked at trick stuff's website and it says delivery in about 9 months. LOLLLLLLL

 

[Kurt_80]

for the quality of components they're turning out, you need high quality production equipment. being ze germans (who are known for high quality engineering, and is apparent on the trickstuff components) it's not a matter of just saying "oh lets make more". my company has certain product families that are toleranced out to x.xxxx and even x.xxxxx. they take a painfully long time to make, and it takes high precision equipment to make them within spec (edit: and also to measure and confirm they are in spec). it's not as simple as just going and grabbing another CNC mill, the kinds of mills that are that precise start around a quarter million. a small company like TS is unlikely to have that kind of capital just sitting around.

No doubt it would be a big project to up production....

He is doing a lot of experiments himself and owns nearly every contemporary brake available. They don't have the capacity nor the interest and intention to do something different. They have the lightest reliable and working brake, a really good trail/dh brake and the most powerful brake available. And their order books are filled for the next 6 to 9 months. Why should they change anything?

But the demand outstrips supply....

being a german and a mountain biker, my guess would be no. not that that would necessarily have any significant impact on production times.

And the cost would be lessened, potentially increasing the number of people that want them....

here's the other thing, i'm not sure the ROI would be there if capacity increased. sure there's demand, but is the demand artificial due to product scarcity? given the precision / quality of product they are after, i sorta doubt it would be cost effective to scale up production.

So financially it might make sense.

Multi-quote hijinx aside, it does seem there is a much bigger market for them. Consider how many people pay vast sums of money for carbon wheels, or continue to change bikes to get the latest/longest/lowest/slackest/ebike-est ride.

Functioning, powerful brakes are actually pretty rare... the hordes would jump all over them. Especially if you were to introduce a two tier system with the weight (rather than the quality) being the differentiating factor. You'd need an injection of cash, and with that comes all sorts of issues you'd have to iron out. But if the will is there, there's definitely a way.

Of course, maybe they cbf, and life is easier for them as it is now?

 

[jonKranked]

Especially if you were to introduce a two tier system with the weight (rather than the quality) being the differentiating factor.

you seem to have yourself convinced that a heavier brake will somehow make it cheaper. it's not the weight that makes it expensive, it's the quality & precision manufacturing.

 

[jonKranked]

And the cost would be lessened,

unlikely, given the amount of capital required to scale production to a point it where the price point could be lowered without sacrificing quality.

 

[jonKranked]

So financially it might make sense.

(no, probably not)

 

[StiHacka]

They should just sell the business to Race Face who would then scale the production and lower the price point.

Edit - or better even, to One Up components.

 

[jonKranked]

Consider how many people pay vast sums of money for carbon wheels, or continue to change bikes to get the latest/longest/lowest/slackest/ebike-est ride.

you can notice the difference in carbon wheels at essentially any speed. not enough riders go fast enough to really bring out the shortcomings in their brakes.

you're also overestimating the number of riders that *actually upgrade individual components on their bike*. most riders are buying complete, and generally only replace components when they fail.

here's something fun, take a look at the stats on brakes that PB collects on opening day at whistler.

 

[jonKranked]

But the demand outstrips supply....

familiarize yourself with the concept of "artificial scarcity"

 

[Flo33]

Here is a google translation try of a post from Trickstuff's owner on mtb-news.de from Apr 19 regarding the lead times:

Hello and good day everyone!

In the past, my openness and honesty, perhaps also my spontaneity, have been a disadvantage to me several times. That's why I'm now trying to give a cautious answer without stepping into any kind of blunders.

Contrary to the various assumptions above, it is not the case that we would be ordering from our manufacturing partners too late. Or that we would order too little. Throughout 2019, two suppliers here in the Black Forest will have a total of four machining centers running all day and only for our parts. There are also four other manufacturers in northern and eastern Germany, all of whom are responsible for the turned parts. Even if we ordered more, we simply would not be able to get delivered because the capacities of the manufacturers are fully utilized. The economic boom in recent years has given manufacturers full order books for sometimes more than half a year.

It would be unreasonable to commission additional or other manufacturers in parallel because the entire programming, fixture and tool costs and the training would be incurred several times. Our experience is that our parts always turn out to be very difficult even for manufacturers who say at the beginning of a collaboration that it would be a no brainer, since they would also work for space travel and medical technology. It takes at least a year from the first samples we receive from a new partner to the first reliably functioning delivery batch. It is also a requirement of trusting cooperation that you do not constantly hop from one bed to another simply because a new smiling face is luring. Often the attractiveness is quickly gone when the make-up crumbles off.

Unfortunately it happens again and again that a new delivery of previously well functioning parts is faulty. Every time goods arrive, we pray that the parts may be fine. Most of the time they are, sometimes they are not, and then it takes three months to make a new one, in which we have to struggle more than well.

There is also the problem of anodizing. Our anodizer is really very hard working and committed, and yet color deviations happen or parts are stained. We are well networked in the bicycle parts scene and know from many discussions that other manufacturers of our size are in no way different.

Our internal capacity is currently not a problem. Our workshop and our order processing run smoothly and smoothly.

Regarding the idea of building up your own production capacity: That would not be a good idea. By the time we had the machines, the tools, the space, the competence, the personnel (with backup!) and the material on board to consistently produce the same quality as companies that have been doing the job for a hundred years, we would also need a hundred years. It is the essence of an economy based on the division of labor that everyone only does what he is particularly good at.

The bottom line is that I can still say that there is light at the end of the tunnel. Our goal is a delivery time of one, maximum two months. In principle, there is no delivery time at all, because we hardly produce in stock due to the variety of colors and variants. The short delivery times of some senders mentioned above actually result from orders that were placed more than half a year ago. We make no distinction between such large customers and end consumers who order directly from us.

 

[Udi]

It is an honest product, and to me that sounds like an honest explanation.
The amount of small details considered in the product design exceed my own level of pedanticness by a reasonable margin, even though I've spent many nights thinking about this stuff. I realised on inspection that this product was designed by someone who spent years (not months) of sleepless nights considering every possible aspect of brake design, every current problem, and every possible solution. This level of passion is incredibly rare in life, not just in MTB, and my honest view is that you cannot put a dollar value on this. It is obvious when something is designed for dollars, this describes most products we buy, however it is not this product. I've said it before (having seen the costs for the tooling, tolerances, materials in other industries): I believe it's priced fairly, if not on the low side.

That's not to say the product is absolutely perfect in my own eyes, but close to it, and far, far closer than anything else on the market. Someone gave it their absolute best shot: that's rare, and very cool.

I think for people with zero experience to sit behind a keyboard and say "they need to get it together" just shows questionable development as a human. But then again, it's human nature to say things you can't afford or obtain suck, and that's exactly why the new Tesla Roadster sucks. You can't even buy one yet ($5000 downpayment with unknown delivery time), maybe Nick and StiHacka could give Elon Musk some tips on how to sell his company to RaceFace or OneUp. If they fixed that I'd definitely maybe buy one for sure.

Also, if they just offered black instead of various colors, that would instantly streamline production and allow zero wait times. No one is even going to buy the stupid red one except Flo33 and we already know he has bad taste.

 

[Happymtb.fr]

The amount of small details considered in the product design exceed my own level of pedanticness by a reasonable margin

Fair enough

 

[Nick]

Flo's posted explanation was good to read, and now learning that they farm out all of their manufacturing it now makes sense that they have less ability to decrease lead times, etc.

I think for people with zero experience to sit behind a keyboard and say "they need to get it together" just shows questionable development as a human. But then again, it's human nature to say things you can't afford or obtain suck

I don't remember anyone in this thread stating "these suck" because they can't buy them. But, you knew that. You seem to have a real problem having a discussion without making it or taking it personal. That's funny.

I hope one day to get to check these brakes out.

 

[Udi]

I don't remember anyone in this thread stating "these suck" because they can't buy them. But, you knew that. You seem to have a real problem having a discussion without making it or taking it personal. That's funny.

It's true, just report my post.