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Frankenbrakes and brake improvement discussion

maxyedor

<b>TOOL PRO</b>
Oct 20, 2005
5,496
3,141
In the bathroom, fighting a battle
So the Formulas seem to be a mixed bag as well. Leaning toward another set of MT7... if I have issues I’ll bastardize them with some shimano levers but to be honest I’ve never been super excited with ServoWave™️...

Dumb question time, what do you guys mean when you say “pad rollback” is this different from lad retraction??
Pad rollback is pad retraction, same thing, more accurate description of what's happening.


Had Mt5s for years, loved them. Lever ergonomics were wonky but you get used to it, swapping the brake to sit inboard of the shift made a big difference. The guy who bought my old bike still can't get over how good the brakes are. He's supposed to drop it off for new suspension bearings and a fork rebuild soon, I'll probably bleed the brakes while I'm at it as they're a touch spongey, but they haven't been bleed since god knows when, probably late 2016/early 2017. I'm a big believer in Magura brakes despite their weird egonomics, pulled a 2005 Louis FR out of the parts bin trying to get another friend's bike back workings, it has never been bleed, hasn't even been used in 5+ years, still feels perfect.

Have Cura 4s now, far fewer miles on them than the Maguras, I like them for sure, but the jury is still out. The pad roll back thing is a bit annoying, if you get then smoking hot, the rotor warps a bit and it sounds like there's a mouse living in your rear hub, squeek, sqeek, squeek. The factory bleed was crap, and they're a bit finicky to get all the trapped air out of, had to reblead a couple times to finally get them dialed in, and they seem to get a long lever in cold weather, but I haven't been able to ride in the cold enough to really say for sure. I've only had them 9ish months, way too early to say if they're reliable long-term.

Between the two, I'd buy the Maguras over the Curas, but the gap between Formula and Shimano or Sram is impossibly wide.
 

Leafy

Monkey
Sep 13, 2019
549
358
So its sounding like Magura levers are better as long as you can avoid smashing them into trees... I'm 0 for 8 in the last months for rides that I didn't clip trees.
 

Leafy

Monkey
Sep 13, 2019
549
358
More like piddly little birch saplings. And they like to grab the brake levers for me. I have half a mind to try a $12 set of ebay bark busters.
 

Flo33

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2015
2,067
1,306
Styria
On another note... I take it your R0Rs are still working well? Are they powerful? I was kinda keen on them before this One refurbishment project, but the bad review on PB put me off.
They are, went straight on my ancient 26" trail bike I use to pull my kids trailer. I had a problem with the rear brake suddenly starting to drag and ghost brake. Turned out to be a damaged hose which restricted fluid returning into the lever. Otherwise they are pretty stable and predictable. They lack in power compared to Shimano servo wave 4-pots but are way more linear, have a harder bite point and better modulation. For my 66kg the power is more than enough on my trail bike. The best brake pad combo for me are Trickstuff power at the front and Shimano Icetech sintered at the rear.
Lever ergonomics is pretty good, you can set them up however you like them, bite point far out or close to the bar. And they are dead stable. @HAB has also pretty good experience on them.

Regarding the PB review you might want to read the ones on nsmb, enduro-mag and bike mag as well.
 

Salami

Turbo Monkey
Jul 17, 2003
1,784
118
Waxhaw, NC
I am thinking about buying some Magura's before I die riding my Shimano SLX. My favorite part of the SLX is the shape of the lever blade and that I can dial them in very close to the grips. I have good size hands but greatly prefer the lever to stop about 1cm from the grips. The levers are pushed pretty far towards the stem so only the index finger can reach the lever.
The brakes will be going on my only bike, a 160/150 trail/do everything bike.

How does the shape on the MT Trail Sport and MT5 compare to Shimano and can either lever be adjusted in to engage close to the grips?
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,077
5,991
borcester rhymes
I am thinking about buying some Magura's before I die riding my Shimano SLX. My favorite part of the SLX is the shape of the lever blade and that I can dial them in very close to the grips. I have good size hands but greatly prefer the lever to stop about 1cm from the grips. The levers are pushed pretty far towards the stem so only the index finger can reach the lever.
The brakes will be going on my only bike, a 160/150 trail/do everything bike.

How does the shape on the MT Trail Sport and MT5 compare to Shimano and can either lever be adjusted in to engage close to the grips?
The MT5 blades are squarer and not anywhere near as ergonomic as the shimanos. The MT5s are able to get in close enough to the grips. I'll measure whether they're able to get in to 1cm, but I didn't have much of an issue on mine and I like them close as well.

The Trail sports appear to have the 1 finger HC lever in the MT5 lever body...this appears far superior from an ergonomics perspective.

For a while, I considered running Shimano levers with magura hoses/calipers, as I too love shimano ergonomics. I don't love servowave though. I think the trail sports might be the way to go, all things considered...HC lever with MT5 up front and a lighter caliper out back...and the maggies have consistency in spades, better than the formulas or any shimanos I've run.
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,077
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borcester rhymes
I am thinking about buying some Magura's before I die riding my Shimano SLX. My favorite part of the SLX is the shape of the lever blade and that I can dial them in very close to the grips. I have good size hands but greatly prefer the lever to stop about 1cm from the grips. The levers are pushed pretty far towards the stem so only the index finger can reach the lever.
The brakes will be going on my only bike, a 160/150 trail/do everything bike.

How does the shape on the MT Trail Sport and MT5 compare to Shimano and can either lever be adjusted in to engage close to the grips?
also, consider merlin cycles or starbike for cheap magura stuff. starbike gets free shipping over a certain limit.
 

Olly

Monkey
Oct 1, 2015
157
76
also, consider merlin cycles or starbike for cheap magura stuff. starbike gets free shipping over a certain limit.
Although bear in mind if they ship with DHL, you might find they can't send it across the pond right now. I had a couple of orders returned to the shops because DHL couldn't get it to Canadia.
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,077
5,991
borcester rhymes
I am thinking about buying some Magura's before I die riding my Shimano SLX. My favorite part of the SLX is the shape of the lever blade and that I can dial them in very close to the grips. I have good size hands but greatly prefer the lever to stop about 1cm from the grips. The levers are pushed pretty far towards the stem so only the index finger can reach the lever.
The brakes will be going on my only bike, a 160/150 trail/do everything bike.

How does the shape on the MT Trail Sport and MT5 compare to Shimano and can either lever be adjusted in to engage close to the grips?
hi

i can get the levers to engage AT the grip on my MT5s if I want to. I haven't bled them in a while and they aren't overbled or anything. They have maybe 15-20mm of throw? Hard to say without measuring. It feels very normal. I have them set to about 15mm away from the grip.
 

Salami

Turbo Monkey
Jul 17, 2003
1,784
118
Waxhaw, NC
also, consider merlin cycles or starbike for cheap magura stuff. starbike gets free shipping over a certain limit.
Yeap, saw that. Wound up ordering a set of Trail Sports, rotors, adaptors, bleed kit, fluid and a couple sets of brake pads on Saturday. Had to meet a minimum to get the free shipping from Merlin.



hi

i can get the levers to engage AT the grip on my MT5s if I want to. I haven't bled them in a while and they aren't overbled or anything. They have maybe 15-20mm of throw? Hard to say without measuring. It feels very normal. I have them set to about 15mm away from the grip.
Thank you for checking. Hopefully I can dial the Trail Sport levers in the same amount.



@Salami you're welcome to check out my curas sometime if you want to see what lever feel is like.
Thanks for the offer. Got a set of Magura's on the way. At some point I'm sure our paths will cross and I'll check them out. From what I read the 4 is probably the better of the two brakes. I was leaning towards by the 4's but I had trouble finding all the parts I needed without driving up the price significantly over the Magura's.
 

jstuhlman

bagpipe wanker
Dec 3, 2009
16,694
13,048
Cackalacka du Nord
Yeap, saw that. Wound up ordering a set of Trail Sports, rotors, adaptors, bleed kit, fluid and a couple sets of brake pads on Saturday. Had to meet a minimum to get the free shipping from Merlin.



Thank you for checking. Hopefully I can dial the Trail Sport levers in the same amount.



Thanks for the offer. Got a set of Magura's on the way. At some point I'm sure our paths will cross and I'll check them out. From what I read the 4 is probably the better of the two brakes. I was leaning towards by the 4's but I had trouble finding all the parts I needed without driving up the price significantly over the Magura's.
yeah man, we need to ride. it's been ages. hit wwc with vinny on sunday...planning for poston next sunday. 8:00. c'mon out!
 

maxyedor

<b>TOOL PRO</b>
Oct 20, 2005
5,496
3,141
In the bathroom, fighting a battle
Formula people, question for you. Specifically Cura4 riders.

Have you guys experienced your MC running dry as the pads wear?

I've been trying to track down a spongey brake issue, and haven't been able to figure it out, then had a minor epiphany today when I cracked open the MC bleed port and found it empty.

Every 10-20 rides the lever start pulling to the bars, and won't pump up. They do however get some feel back in them when they get hot or if you use a rubber band to old the lever depressed overnight. This happens to both the front and rear, bleeding seems to fix it, but I haven't gotten a single bubble out of the caliper end in the last 5-6 bleeds. I noticed last time before I bleed that simply pushing the pistons back in and shoving a bleed block brough them right back to perfect. Today they both pulled to the bars, I pulled the bleed screws and there was zero fluid in either, and no signs of leakage anywhere,but my pads are nearly shot. I used a syringe to put about 2ml of oil in each, and they felt absolutely perfect again. Is it possible that there simply isn't enough fluid capacity in the MC reservoir to account for pad wear? Seems impossible, but I can't think of any other possible reason this "fix" worked.

Thoughts? Try it nao? Moar Shimz?


Also, any US based online dealers selling pads for these things? LBS has fucked up ordering them like 5 times now.
 

chris_f

Monkey
Jun 20, 2007
390
409
@maxyedor I don't have enough time on them to say I've experienced this but this is concerning. They're decently powerful but I think I'll be swapping them over to my trail bike at some point.
 

dovbush66

Monkey
Aug 27, 2018
195
218
Ireland
damn that sounds pretty bad. haven't ridden my curas yet but on ROs I found the diaphragm and hose fitting o-rings giving me similar spongey lever issues.
any pics of how worn the pads are? this is worrying for me since i keep mine for a long time
 

Flo33

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2015
2,067
1,306
Styria
Check if the hose is damaged somewhere. I had issues with the R0s when I damaged the inner part of the hose in a crash and didn't instantly recognize it. Fluid started leaking inside the inner hose and the outer liner. Also swap the olive barb thing for a Hayes one piece design one, worked much better for me.
 

maxyedor

<b>TOOL PRO</b>
Oct 20, 2005
5,496
3,141
In the bathroom, fighting a battle
I can’t rule out a leak somewhere, but I’m like 99.999% sure there’s no leak. I ride in the dustiest dust I know of, the tiniest drop of oil anywhere collects brown silt and sticks out like a sore thumb, brakes are spotless.

Not sure how I’d check for a hose leak like Flo33 theorized, but no kinks or knocks anywhere, and it’s both brakes so they’d both have to have a tear internally and be leaking significantly but not bulging, seems unlikely unless it’s a manufacturing defect.

Pads are definitely clapped out, put my spare set on the rear, they measure .150”, old ones are .095” and .105”, so significantly worn. However this has been going on for quite a while, I just assumed I had trapped air somewhere because the factory bleed was kinda shitty, so I figured I’d just never gotten it quite right. I’ll keep track of wear when/if it happens to the new pads. I’ve worked on plenty of brakes work down to the backer and never had the MC run dry, but these do have a tiny MC.



Debating thicker rotors because I generally prefer them, and there’s a good bit of gap between the brand new pads and rotor when the pistons are fully squished into the caliper. That may alleviate the issue, but IME formula rotors are formula brakes should work together just fine.

If nothing else, I got my money’s worth out of the pads
B4AB8730-09D4-4AA8-B8DF-A27BE3734B63.jpeg
 

slimshady

¡Mira, una ardilla!
I have a friend who runs a bike shop down here, and the Cura 4s are a Royal PITA, period. As you say the MC is tiny and it seems it barely copes with the two-piston caliper's oil volume. When you add the volume of the extra set of pistons, they tend to run dry if you let the pads wear far than half their thickness.

He had a customer recently who bought a couple 4-piston calipers to replace the ones in his Cura 2 set, and on top of the first bleed being almost impossible to get right, they shat the bed once the pads were half worn.
 
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dovbush66

Monkey
Aug 27, 2018
195
218
Ireland
Can i get uuuuuuuh buyers remorse? Man those curas sound like pieces of shit. Wish i spent the cash on something better now, guess ill be swapping a new mc if they piss me off
 
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maxyedor

<b>TOOL PRO</b>
Oct 20, 2005
5,496
3,141
In the bathroom, fighting a battle
I'm curious on the math of Cura 4 vs Cura 2 also. Seems like they'd need a razor thin margin of error if the MC is okay for the 2s, but runs out of juice at the halfway point on the 4s, unless the 2s just have super tiny pistons.

Thinking about it, it was probably around the 50% wear mark on the pads that mine took a turn. Seems like it'll be no big deal if I just keep them topped up, but still stupid. They're still better than either Sram or Shimano, but I had high hopes for these long-term. Once this Corona blows over we'll see how much money I want to spend on something German, either Maguras or Trick Stuff.
 

maxyedor

<b>TOOL PRO</b>
Oct 20, 2005
5,496
3,141
In the bathroom, fighting a battle
Don't wear the button out, you'll have to use it again soon.
Honestly, a set of Magura Louise FRs from 2004 are one of the single most reliable items I’ve ever owned MTB or otherwise, still going strong on my old Yeti that I gave to my brother, still on the factory bleed. My MT5s on the intense are going on 4-5 years, and have only been bleed once. I feel pretty good about the probability of getting more than my money’s worth out of them again, hard to complain about bulletproof brakes for barely more than a set of tires

As for the formulas (which IIRC you rate as a good quality brake) since topping up the MC last week, they’re still fine. That’s the longest they’ve held a bleed in the last couple months, so I’m calling that a win.
 

dovbush66

Monkey
Aug 27, 2018
195
218
Ireland

about the brake booster part. might be some use for it on cura 4s :D

''
flag
x-rider (6 hours ago)
If you take into account where in the hydraulic system this so called "power bootser" sits, you really don`t need to be a genius to understand that this does have no effect at all.
1. every modern hadraulic disc brake uses two bypass bore for the medium to flow freely from the high pressure area into the reservoir, when you let go your brake. This is needed for pad wear adjustment and heat management.
2. it is like haveing a longer or a shorter brake hose - as soon as you dial the booster in, you would fill the reservoir, as the "free play" or bite point is only effected by the brake design (e.G. caliper: how the quad rings are angeled and on the lever how far the main seal sits before the reservoir bore)

I only see a use if you are miss matching brake calipers to different levers (Shimano levers on Magura MT7 Calipers) as the reservoir has not enough volume to compensate the pad wear. Appart from such a use case there isn't much I would use it for.

Trust me on that I have designed brakes for me living ''
 

Nick

My name is Nick
Sep 21, 2001
24,064
14,711
where the trails are

about the brake booster part. might be some use for it on cura 4s :D

''
flag
x-rider (6 hours ago)
If you take into account where in the hydraulic system this so called "power bootser" sits, you really don`t need to be a genius to understand that this does have no effect at all.
1. every modern hadraulic disc brake uses two bypass bore for the medium to flow freely from the high pressure area into the reservoir, when you let go your brake. This is needed for pad wear adjustment and heat management.
2. it is like haveing a longer or a shorter brake hose - as soon as you dial the booster in, you would fill the reservoir, as the "free play" or bite point is only effected by the brake design (e.G. caliper: how the quad rings are angeled and on the lever how far the main seal sits before the reservoir bore)

I only see a use if you are miss matching brake calipers to different levers (Shimano levers on Magura MT7 Calipers) as the reservoir has not enough volume to compensate the pad wear. Appart from such a use case there isn't much I would use it for.

Trust me on that I have designed brakes for me living ''
remember the original Hope closed systems? It seems like this device mimic that.
 

englertracing

you owe me a sandwich
Mar 5, 2012
1,581
1,076
La Verne

about the brake booster part. might be some use for it on cura 4s :D

''
flag
x-rider (6 hours ago)
If you take into account where in the hydraulic system this so called "power bootser" sits, you really don`t need to be a genius to understand that this does have no effect at all.
1. every modern hadraulic disc brake uses two bypass bore for the medium to flow freely from the high pressure area into the reservoir, when you let go your brake. This is needed for pad wear adjustment and heat management.
2. it is like haveing a longer or a shorter brake hose - as soon as you dial the booster in, you would fill the reservoir, as the "free play" or bite point is only effected by the brake design (e.G. caliper: how the quad rings are angeled and on the lever how far the main seal sits before the reservoir bore)

I only see a use if you are miss matching brake calipers to different levers (Shimano levers on Magura MT7 Calipers) as the reservoir has not enough volume to compensate the pad wear. Appart from such a use case there isn't much I would use it for.

Trust me on that I have designed brakes for me living ''
its boost brakes, soon to be followed by superboost hast to be better
 

Andeh

Customer Title
Mar 3, 2020
1,016
990
Anyone mated up Maguras to Shimano EV shifters (and Shimano dropper lever)? Not much info on this, and it sounds like Wolf Tooth thinks its impossible due to "geometry." But I did find one post on MTBR where someone said you can make the I-Spec II Shiftmix adapter work by shortening the bolt 1mm or so, it just doesn't have the full amount of adjustment you normally get with EV.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,995
9,655
AK
I LOVED those brakes. Nothing but fond memories of early Hopes. "Hope" you can stop in time! "Hope" my brakes don't shoot oil all over my new pads. "Hope" I can sell these soon.
My first were the first 4 piston opens. They only had 185 rotors back then and they weren't really sufficient. Power was low.

Then many years later I got Mono M4s. Weird though, at first they were decent, but as soon as I had to change pads I could never get anywhere near the same power out of them as original. I tried all sorts of stuff, bleeding, pads, rotors, etc. Was frustrating.

The one thing though was quality and lack of stupid leaks was always great.

On my latest, X2s on my fatbike, I over-rotored them with 8 and 7, which is definitely over-braked, but I also use the bike for training up and down roads with massive vert and grades, so slowing from 40+mph is great with them. Don't seem to suffer as much on the lack of power as those earlier brakes. I didn't get them for crazy off-road descending though, so I wouldn't even attempt that with these.

I'm considering over-rotoring some new hopes for my enduro bike when the shimano's die, like 220mm and 200...not sure though, open to others.
 

Andeh

Customer Title
Mar 3, 2020
1,016
990
Come again? :confused:
With 12-speed XTR / XT / etc. and the corresponding new brakes, Shimano changed their brake/shifter mate-up standard again, from I-spec II to I-spec EV (for Evolution). As far as I can tell, it's really similar to I-spec II, but it adds like 1.5mm more lateral movement and a lot more rotational movement.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,995
9,655
AK
With 12-speed XTR / XT / etc. and the corresponding new brakes, Shimano changed their brake/shifter mate-up standard again, from I-spec II to I-spec EV (for Evolution). As far as I can tell, it's really similar to I-spec II, but it adds like 1.5mm more lateral movement and a lot more rotational movement.
Can't wait for the next I-spec. :banana:
 

StiHacka

Compensating for something
Jan 4, 2013
21,560
12,505
In hell. Welcome!
With 12-speed XTR / XT / etc. and the corresponding new brakes, Shimano changed their brake/shifter mate-up standard again, from I-spec II to I-spec EV (for Evolution). As far as I can tell, it's really similar to I-spec II, but it adds like 1.5mm more lateral movement and a lot more rotational movement.
Fuckers...
 

6thElement

Schrodinger's Immigrant
Jul 29, 2008
15,968
13,220
Sounds like Shimano's 90th attempt at their i-spec "standard" whereas SRAM's mount has now been the same for 10+ years.
 

dovbush66

Monkey
Aug 27, 2018
195
218
Ireland
1590939078698.png


looks like i-spec ev can work with i spec II

shimano's i spec shit is ridiculous. I always buy the regular band clamp version of everything anyway, lets you run the shifter further away for comfier death gripping although adjusting stuff that way sucks if your grips aren't lock on
 

Andeh

Customer Title
Mar 3, 2020
1,016
990
So I started messing around with modifying the Magura Shiftmix I-spec II adapter, using my buddy's M800 dropper lever as a fit test (which is EV). Unmodified, it sorta works except the lever gets put really far under the bar. Modifications were pretty easy, no idea why Wolf Tooth says the geometry doesn't work. I basically used a Dremel to grind away the gusset on the type 2 piece, then hacksawed about 6-7mm from the end, then a file to slightly thin it down to fit. I used the piece I sawed off as a guide for shortening the Magura-supplied screw. I haven't fully test fit it on my bars, but it seems to be further back enough that I could easily do the full lever throw.
IMG_20200530_165841.jpg

(original piece slightly too far forward)

IMG_20200531_142613.jpg

(ground off the gusset, started filing down thicker part)

IMG_20200531_143459.jpg

(finished mod test fit)

IMG_20200531_145939.jpg

(finished modification)