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Frankenbrakes and brake improvement discussion

Balgaroth

Chimp
Oct 22, 2021
33
21
Alsace (FR)
Quick follow-up, today I was a bit bored and the miss wasn't around so I took a bit of time to do some A-B testing. TRP Slate T4 lever vs M745 lever. Same caliper, same pads, same bike, same disc. Both MC are 10mm so theoretically, only the lever blade shape should come to play since hydro ratio is identical.
Result is pretty underwhelming if you ask me, as I doubt I could differentiate either combo in a blind test and didn't either in a none blind test. This is quite disappointing considering that swaping the M745 caliper for the Saint caliper was night and day. Thing is, the lever swap should give the same difference (+/-30%) than the caliper swap did if Mech leverage was as important as Hydro leverage. At least this cleared the fear I had that only the swap for a MT5/7 caliper would yield decent power with the Salte T4 levers and my M810 calipers might go back to service for full season next year.
 

Boozzz

Chimp
Sep 12, 2019
30
38
Quick follow-up, today I was a bit bored and the miss wasn't around so I took a bit of time to do some A-B testing. TRP Slate T4 lever vs M745 lever. Same caliper, same pads, same bike, same disc. Both MC are 10mm so theoretically, only the lever blade shape should come to play since hydro ratio is identical.
Result is pretty underwhelming if you ask me, as I doubt I could differentiate either combo in a blind test and didn't either in a none blind test. This is quite disappointing considering that swaping the M745 caliper for the Saint caliper was night and day. Thing is, the lever swap should give the same difference (+/-30%) than the caliper swap did if Mech leverage was as important as Hydro leverage. At least this cleared the fear I had that only the swap for a MT5/7 caliper would yield decent power with the Salte T4 levers and my M810 calipers might go back to service for full season next year.
That's the main disclaimer about the mechanical leverage: we aren't calculating any leverage curve, so calculating it from the two simple measurements we take might not always be precise. Hydraulic leverage on the other hand is a very simple calculation.

Aside from that, might it not also be that the Saint caliper had much better pads? That's what a night and day difference would say to me.
 

Balgaroth

Chimp
Oct 22, 2021
33
21
Alsace (FR)
That's the main disclaimer about the mechanical leverage: we aren't calculating any leverage curve, so calculating it from the two simple measurements we take might not always be precise. Hydraulic leverage on the other hand is a very simple calculation.

Aside from that, might it not also be that the Saint caliper had much better pads? That's what a night and day difference would say to me.
M745, Slate T4 and M810 calipers all use the same brake pad shape, so like I said all this has been done with the same disc/pad combination and only swaping the calipers. And when I mean the same, I literally mean the same, so even pad break-in period is not a factor.
 

Boozzz

Chimp
Sep 12, 2019
30
38
M745, Slate T4 and M810 calipers all use the same brake pad shape, so like I said all this has been done with the same disc/pad combination and only swaping the calipers. And when I mean the same, I literally mean the same, so even pad break-in period is not a factor.
Alright. That info was a bit buried in your original post, tl;dr ;) We need to work on that mechanical leverage calculation.
 

Balgaroth

Chimp
Oct 22, 2021
33
21
Alsace (FR)
Alright. That info was a bit buried in your original post, tl;dr ;) We need to work on that mechanical leverage calculation.
Spent a bit of time look in the car world and found the following in Wilwood's website:
"The Wilwood 10:1 pedal is designed for off-road race vehicles using non-boosted brakes with large piston area calipers. The rough terrain often causes brake pad knock-back, and a large-bore master cylinder pumping greater fluid volume moves the caliper pistons back into place quickly. Unfortunately, this necessitates a big pedal ratio to produce good line pressure without power brakes or a tremendous amount of leg effort."
So the way I see it is that mech lever is there to mitigate the choices you need to make with your hydro lever and seemingly comes second. Not sure if the final power output is the same with big MC and long pedal as this is offroad and what is deemed adequate is far from what is adequate for tarmac going car.
 

HAB

Chelsea from Seattle
Apr 28, 2007
11,319
1,704
Seattle
Anyone got any feedback on Galfer Pro vs Galfer Advanced pads?
I really like the Pros. Good power, very good heat management, quiet (even when wet). They don't last very long though.

Their "standard" pads have pretty decent performance — notably a little less bite than the Pros, and a little noisier — but are much harder wearing.
 

Cerberus75

Monkey
Feb 18, 2017
418
156
I really like the Pros. Good power, very good heat management, quiet (even when wet). They don't last very long though.

Their "standard" pads have pretty decent performance — notably a little less bite than the Pros, and a little noisier — but are much harder wearing.
Agreed. I was running them in m8000 4pots before I switched to the Dominions. The Pro drastically changed how well my brakes felt. Great stopping power. Great when wet. Handles park speeds well. I'll probably get them for the Dominions if available.
 

toodles

ridiculously corgi proportioned
Aug 24, 2004
3,878
2,434
Australia
Anyone got any feedback on Galfer Pro vs Galfer Advanced pads?
Just ran this experiment. Galfer Advanceds were removed after one day of wet muddy steeps and binned (replaced with standard sintereds). Galfer Pros - very good in all conditions. Not as much wear as anticipated either.
 

Happymtb.fr

Turbo Monkey
Feb 9, 2016
1,395
737
SWE
Me too.
I tried already to make the monkeys speak but they were only interested in the old stuff...
 

toodles

ridiculously corgi proportioned
Aug 24, 2004
3,878
2,434
Australia
Me too.
I tried already to make the monkeys speak but they were only interested in the old stuff...
Yeah hard to find any info on them. I did see Adam Brayton was running those T4 levers with E4 calipers. Not sure if thats a personal preference for the E4 (unlikely IMO) or an indication that the new lever is optimised to work with the E4, or simply ups the power enough to make them a DH worth brake.
 

Happymtb.fr

Turbo Monkey
Feb 9, 2016
1,395
737
SWE
Be patient my friend! By the look, I would say that they are still prototypes but since we see them more and more, they might get released soon-ish (6 to 12 months maybe? )
Anyhow, I assume that a seasoned biker like yourself would not consider being an early adopter of such a key component, or would you?
 

toodles

ridiculously corgi proportioned
Aug 24, 2004
3,878
2,434
Australia
Anyhow, I assume that a seasoned biker like yourself would not consider being an early adopter of such a key component, or would you?
My problem is I love my Hopes but more and more gotta start admitting they're falling behind in the power/short throw stakes. I just did a 10 day riding holiday with a mate who has the Dominion A4s and managed to steal his bike for a few laps. Pretty much left my brakes for dead, even at the end of 5-6 minute steep braking chutes. At the end of the trip they still felt the same as the first day too.

I wouldn't mind trying the T4 levers if you could buy them separately. If they did any weird stuff, swapping a lever back to a T3 would be easy anyway.
 

Happymtb.fr

Turbo Monkey
Feb 9, 2016
1,395
737
SWE
Dominions don't really have short throw, don't they? At least not mine nor the one on a buddy's bike...
Cura have.
Hope, I don't know. I have tried a few a long time ago but cannot recollect that details...
 

toodles

ridiculously corgi proportioned
Aug 24, 2004
3,878
2,434
Australia
The Dominions aren't crazy short throw, but it didn't seem to change at all on the runs I did which is just as important to me. Their bite is pretty mental, the only real downsides I picked up one were slightly agricultural finish as well as the hassle of finding pads and spares over here in Oz.

I rode a set of the Shigura hybrids as well, with XT levers on MT calipers (not sure if 5s or 7s). That's an awesome setup and seemed to have more power than the full Magura option as well. The Magura lever screws look like they belong in the timber section of a hardware store, and both guys running full Magura brakes seemed to have issues by the end of the trip.
 

Happymtb.fr

Turbo Monkey
Feb 9, 2016
1,395
737
SWE
Then we are on the same line about the A4.
I have shigura "trail" on my trail bike. I like them with trickstuff pads. I just change the lever sooner than later.
 

toodles

ridiculously corgi proportioned
Aug 24, 2004
3,878
2,434
Australia
Looks like the T4s need an updated bleeding kit. $$$ :twitch:
Ah you can just open reservoir bleed em like the T3s I imagine. If anything the kit would just be a new reservoir lid with the bleed funnel port. Fuck I wish they'd just put a port on the normal lid with a plug screw in it. I fuggen hate putting the reservoir lid and diaphragm on and off to do a bleed. Always gets DOT on something and requires a clean up.
 

Boozzz

Chimp
Sep 12, 2019
30
38
The Dominions aren't crazy short throw, but it didn't seem to change at all on the runs I did which is just as important to me. Their bite is pretty mental, the only real downsides I picked up one were slightly agricultural finish as well as the hassle of finding pads and spares over here in Oz.
Agricultural finish is quite the understatement ;) Could live with that if it were all fashion, but function can also suffer from their finishing quality, as was the case with mine. Glad to be rid of them.

The Hope T4 lever seems to pivot on bearings, so that's a good start. Hopefully they've done something about that stiff return spring, to make the lever feel lighter. If they've made the MC a bit smaller and reworked the lever curve a bit for that, they may have a winner, as their build quality is about a 1000 times better than Hayes. Wait and see I guess for the specs.
 

Balgaroth

Chimp
Oct 22, 2021
33
21
Alsace (FR)
I have shigura "trail" on my trail bike. I like them with trickstuff pads. I just change the lever sooner than later.
It could be worth considering a TRP lever, they seem to be much more durable over time than the shimano. You won't have the very agressive bite point but you should have the same total power.


I rode a set of the Shigura hybrids as well, with XT levers on MT calipers (not sure if 5s or 7s). That's an awesome setup and seemed to have more power than the full Magura option as well. The Magura lever screws look like they belong in the timber section of a hardware store, and both guys running full Magura brakes seemed to have issues by the end of the trip.
It would make sens since Magura master cyclinder is 10.5mm and Shimano (and TRP) are 10mm so you would gain some power from hydraulic leverage.
 

Happymtb.fr

Turbo Monkey
Feb 9, 2016
1,395
737
SWE
It could be worth considering a TRP lever, they seem to be much more durable over time than the shimano. You won't have the very agressive bite point but you should have the same total power
Thanks for the heads up! Trp has indeed some levers with a 10mm mc but they don't seem to sell the levers separately. Not in Europe from what I could find...

Another option would be getting trickstuff levers, I just find them to be too pricey for my budget
 

Flo33

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2015
1,579
856
Styria
I sold off all my Hope brakes in favor of the Hayes A4 and second choice is Formula Cura. For DH I get much less arm pump and better performance with those two.
When are you finally going to try the good stuff, the one shot addicted for life stuff, the trick stuff?
 

Flo33

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2015
1,579
856
Styria
Ok, so what kept you from running them on all your bikes? Availability or in case you got to try the Maxima too much power?
 

buckoW

Turbo Monkey
Mar 1, 2007
2,513
2,087
Champery, Switzerland
Ok, so what kept you from running them on all your bikes? Availability or in case you got to try the Maxima too much power?
Just the cost. As long as I am happy with the Hayes then I will buy other stuff first like AXS derailleurs, 4130 steel tubing and seat reamers. I have a lot of hobbies and interests….
I love the power and they are the only brake I feel is better than the Hayes. I really like these kind of brakes with a super light lever pull and incredibly progressive for arm pump on long runs. I did see Paul Aston when those were on my bike and he said they needed a bleed and his felt better and less spongy. So maybe mine didn’t get a fair test?

I agree about the looks but I want my brakes to work and don’t mind what they look like.

A well bled Dominion A4 with a 220mm Formula disc is a damn fine setup for what I do so I’m good!
 

shmity

Chimp
Oct 6, 2004
41
5
Anyone here running a half length finger? I just took the top off one of my index fingers (modt of the nail is gone) and am considering how to adapt my brakes to suit the shorter finger. I'm running Cura 4s on my DH bike and XT 2 pots on my trail bike. It looks like magura HC3s have good blade adjustment so would look at doing a lever swap on both sets.
 

shmity

Chimp
Oct 6, 2004
41
5
That's more or less what I was expecting, but post surgery the doc re mom's he managed to smush a bunch of skin and flesh around and kept most of the length on the finger so we will see what I've got to work with one the cast comes off.
 

Cerberus75

Monkey
Feb 18, 2017
418
156
The new Hayes Dominion K2 brake lines are out of stock everywhere. They have a larger inner diameter than both S brands. Any idea to what could work with them?