Frankenbrakes and brake improvement discussion
- Thread starter Udi
- Start date
I hope your German (or Google translate) is up to speed.
Pinkbike and...?
implementing a new ERP system but no mention of a buyout
I forget the other one, I think it was NSMB.
Great news. I'm sure they'll benefit from the support and ramp up mfg.
hopefully ramping up manufacturing doesn't come with the typical price tag of reduction in quality.
Agreed.
The engineering is done, and DT has the benefit of knowing how to mfg at scale. So long as they don't replace CNC hours and high end sub components with stamped, rough parts, and with a lot of focus on a global distribution network, and a little bit of good luck ....
I still might be able to buy a pair by 2023
i'd like to think both entities realize that one of the reason TS has gained the popularity they have is because of their extremely high quality. any sacrifices to that will likely kill the brand.Agreed.
The engineering is done, and DT has the benefit of knowing how to mfg at scale. So long as they don't replace CNC hours and high end sub components with stamped, rough parts, and with a lot of focus on a global distribution network, and a little bit of good luck ....
I still might be able to buy a pair by 2023
agree with that too.
I wonder if DT having a brake line might be a precursor to them developing drivetrain parts
Remember what they did with Pace? Bought them, initially relabelled their forks, starting to develop new models...and where are they now? More niche than Pace IMO, or at least I see them less on the trail.
i remember biopace
Ahead of their times with oval chainrings!
Imagine placing an $$$$ order 12 months ago, only to watch the company change ownership and receiving a DT-mass made set 6 months down the road.
reading the press release, it sounds like TS will be maintaining its own manufacturing, but DT will provide support more with the back end business infrastructure, stuff like ERP (which they are already in the process of updating), etc.
Wasn't the issue that they didn't actually have their own manufacturing in the first place and had to schedule out runs around other people's schedules at machine shops?
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that's part of it. even when you're outsourcing components / subcomponents you still need an in-house QC team to inspect everything and make sure its within spec, then techs / engineers for final assembly & testing. and you still need a good ERP system to manage it. If anything, having DT backing may help them get a little bit of leverage with their suppliers.
I had forgotten that DT Swiss actually manufactures stuff. Very cool.
Has anyone tried pairing a set of TRP DH-R Evo levers to MT7 or Cura 4 calipers? According to NSMB, the MCs have 9mm pistons and are compatible with mineral oil. A TRP/Formula pairing would put it at the very top for hydraulic leverage.
I'm also looking for some brake recommendations.
I've been off a mtb for a while. My last DH bike ('07 26 inch) had Magura Gustav M's with 210F/190R rotors. I remember them having so much initial bite that it was nearly unridable unless I was pointed down hill and I absolutely loved it. I also recall liking the on/off feel of the first gen Saint brakes. I recently got a new bike (27.5) that came with Code RSC 200F/180R. Based on everything I've read online, they're supposedly "powerful" brakes, but I can't get them to work for me. I've tried 2 different sets of rotors and 3 different types of pads. They just don't have the bite I'm looking for.
What do you guys think would get me closest to that old Gustav feeling?
A little math tells me the equivalent 210/190 mm rotors on my 27.5 bike would be 220F/200R which I have on order.
I'm also looking for some brake recommendations.
I've been off a mtb for a while. My last DH bike ('07 26 inch) had Magura Gustav M's with 210F/190R rotors. I remember them having so much initial bite that it was nearly unridable unless I was pointed down hill and I absolutely loved it. I also recall liking the on/off feel of the first gen Saint brakes. I recently got a new bike (27.5) that came with Code RSC 200F/180R. Based on everything I've read online, they're supposedly "powerful" brakes, but I can't get them to work for me. I've tried 2 different sets of rotors and 3 different types of pads. They just don't have the bite I'm looking for.
What do you guys think would get me closest to that old Gustav feeling?
A little math tells me the equivalent 210/190 mm rotors on my 27.5 bike would be 220F/200R which I have on order.
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What do you guys reckon about phenolic/plastic or aluminium pistons for the calipers, when not looking at heat transfer but just at reliability/strength?
The reason I ask is, that on my trials bike I seem to go through phenolic pistonned brakes at a somewhat alarming rate. Rear brake in trials sees massive forces, think constant wheel lockups where the brake can barely hold on and sometimes slips even with max lever pressure, lots of hard rocking forwards as well as backwards. So far, two sets of Formula T1 (long time ago) both started leaking massively their first ride. Magura MT5 faired better and started seeping slowly past the pistons in about 1,5 years. Still manageable, but replaced it anyway. Now a Hope V4 two months in and massive leak past one of the smaller pistons. Funny thing is that when cleaned up afterwards and clamped down hard overnight on a bleed block, they remain perfectly dry.
Aluminium pistonned Hope Trial Zones I used on my old bike never had these issues, neither did my very old Hayes Stroker Trails, but I only used the latter ones when just starting out with trials, so maybe not very relevant.
Just coincidental bad luck, or is there anything in it that aluminium pistons could be more reliable, maybe deform less, or perhaps finished smoother?
The reason I ask is, that on my trials bike I seem to go through phenolic pistonned brakes at a somewhat alarming rate. Rear brake in trials sees massive forces, think constant wheel lockups where the brake can barely hold on and sometimes slips even with max lever pressure, lots of hard rocking forwards as well as backwards. So far, two sets of Formula T1 (long time ago) both started leaking massively their first ride. Magura MT5 faired better and started seeping slowly past the pistons in about 1,5 years. Still manageable, but replaced it anyway. Now a Hope V4 two months in and massive leak past one of the smaller pistons. Funny thing is that when cleaned up afterwards and clamped down hard overnight on a bleed block, they remain perfectly dry.
Aluminium pistonned Hope Trial Zones I used on my old bike never had these issues, neither did my very old Hayes Stroker Trails, but I only used the latter ones when just starting out with trials, so maybe not very relevant.
Just coincidental bad luck, or is there anything in it that aluminium pistons could be more reliable, maybe deform less, or perhaps finished smoother?
It's always worth double-checking that you were using semi-metallic pads, NOT organic. IME, time and time again, that's where the biggest "bite" problem usually is.
Anybody have both the Zee and Saint levers? Was wondering if there's any difference in metal thickness between the two lever blades. Friend of mine is convinced the Saint is the stronger of the two, with more material in the lever blade, but I can't see anything different in online pics.
For a trials Shigura experiment, so the more durable/tougher the lever the better.
For a trials Shigura experiment, so the more durable/tougher the lever the better.
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Interesting scenario. May be worth looking at older Shimano calipers, the M800 and M810 (not M820) have alloy pistons. Maybe getting too old now to find a good / NOS set, but those calipers lasted longer than the new ones and M810 can allow powerful pairings. I would also guess this is an application where Trickstuff will offer significant advantage - stainless pistons in a 7075-T6 caliper bore should wipe the floor with current mainstream options. From what you said though, I'd just re-purchase the MT5.
Unsure on thickness but with regard to internal build quality they're equally terrible and I'd definitely run the cheaper Zee levers + replace them more often. Regular lever/MC replacement is the best thing you can do for Shimano brakes (which obviously stop very well when working correctly).
Google is your friend 
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they should be marked someone on the caliper body.
New kids on the block. with MOAR things
Edit - claimed 30% moar powa. If they manage that without increasing the lever throw then I'm keen.
What pads are you using on your Hopes?
At the moment I've got my froth on for the green Galfer Pros on the Mega V4s. I wanna try a set of those on the Smuggler E4s next.
My mate with the Dominions sends me a link to buy Hayes probably once a week the smart ass.
Yeah those Hayes were very impressive. Just hard to get them or parts for them here at the moment. Plus I gotta save for plane tickets now we can finally leave.
Anybody here got any experience of Hayes dominion A2 (2 piston) brakes?
Would be for a UK Enduro bike (steep but relatively short descents) so more interested to hear about consistency and power than any issues you'd only find in long alpine DH use.
Would be for a UK Enduro bike (steep but relatively short descents) so more interested to hear about consistency and power than any issues you'd only find in long alpine DH use.
I've mine on a 27.5 DH bike - most of the time I just session shit and trails here are short and steep too. Happy out with them, lever feels great and power is good, no reliability issues really.
The sintered pads get glazed a bit quickly and finish and paint quality on the mc is a bit shit for the price. The semi-sintered ones are still pretty good power wise though, but are a bit less grabby in the wet. Pads are a bit hard to find, but so are most things these days.
Maybe the A4 might be a better shout since there's aftermarket pads for them. I got the A2s way cheaper which is why I dont have A4s.
Thanks. Reason I ask is I've been offered A2s at an absolute steal. If I were to take them they'd be to replace a recently overhauled (new pistons) set of Guide RS which suit me really well.
As I'm in the UK I run sintered all year round on all my bikes and with Guides don't glaze on me at all.
I'll probably just stick with the Guides as i have 3 bikes with them so it makes spares handy and interchangable.
Yeah. If it were the A4 I think it'd be a no brainer.
As I'm in the UK I run sintered all year round on all my bikes and with Guides don't glaze on me at all.
I'll probably just stick with the Guides as i have 3 bikes with them so it makes spares handy and interchangable.
Yeah. If it were the A4 I think it'd be a no brainer.
The latest Downtime podcast has two guys from Magura on it talking the company, their tech etc. Couple of interesting points - I didn't realise Magura doesn't do metallic/sintered pads at all. The other thing was how much of a deal they made of the correct bedding procedure - going as far as to say that if pads were simply bed in through a normal trail ride that they'd be unsavable and you'd need to replace them to get peak performance.
Out of interest, a quick google shows Magura brakes having the most bonkers break in recommendation I've ever seen - 30-50 stops at ~30kph all the way to a standstill. Pretty much every manufacturer I googled was way less.
Both Shimano and SRAM recommend a series of slow dragging brakes, then several fast ones and very specifically - all without locking the wheels at any stage.
Various Youtube tutorials recommend using water on the pads and rotor. Hope's bed in procedure advises against this.
I've pretty much always just chucked pads in and done a few sprints and stops and then gone for a trail ride.
Out of interest, a quick google shows Magura brakes having the most bonkers break in recommendation I've ever seen - 30-50 stops at ~30kph all the way to a standstill. Pretty much every manufacturer I googled was way less.
Both Shimano and SRAM recommend a series of slow dragging brakes, then several fast ones and very specifically - all without locking the wheels at any stage.
Various Youtube tutorials recommend using water on the pads and rotor. Hope's bed in procedure advises against this.
I've pretty much always just chucked pads in and done a few sprints and stops and then gone for a trail ride.
I really have to wonder about this. One of the primary reasons for a break-in for auto brakes is to get you up to "full braking" as soon as possible, as you will have reduced braking at first...but then, if your bike is sitting there occasionally being test ridden, before you buy it, are the pads/rotors shot from the get-go because it was ridden without the "break in"? No one does this with an auto, it sits there at the dealer till you buy it. The break-in procedure is just to get you up to max faster. Literally all you are doing is depositing some material on the rotor to help make for a smooth consistent surface. I've noticed a lot of difference in how brakes work over the years, but I can't say it was ever due to break-in, as in if the brakes overheat, it's not because break-in was done right or not. Max power? Haven't really found that to be linked. Different pads (like going to organic) and previous deposits from different pads can be a bit of an issue, but you can usually scrub the rotor fairly easily to get it back enough.