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Frankenbrakes and brake improvement discussion

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Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,918
1,213
Yeah, I think I spoke a little too soon too. Mine are a ton better with the Formula pads, but it's not 100% gone.
Are you using ice tech rotors?
It's a known issue as they wear. You can try fresh rotors or a different brand.

Has anyone put Shimano lever assemblies on Magura MT6 Next brakes... or other 2-piston MT Next series? (either Shimano Servo Wave or non-SW versions? Being just a 2-piston affair I'm not sure how servo wave would affect things.)
Yes it should work fine, you can use the servo wave levers. I would buy the cheapest SW levers (eg. Deore with SW) so it's not a big investment if you don't like it for some reason. SLX and Zee should work fine too.

The number of pistons don't matter at all, only the total slave area, and from memory the MT 2-pot series are the same or very close to the Shimano 2-pot calipers anyway. The data should be in my spreadsheet in post #1 of this thread.
 

HAB

Chelsea from Seattle
Apr 28, 2007
11,592
2,028
Seattle
Are you using ice tech rotors?
It's a known issue as they wear. You can try fresh rotors or a different brand.
Yes, but they're very new. <10 rides. I put new rotors and the Shimano pads on at the same time, replacing old ice tech rotors and Formula pads that had been quiet. Going back to Formula pads on the new rotors made the issue vastly better, but not 100% gone.
 

woodsy

Chimp
Aug 5, 2017
2
0
Are you using ice tech rotors?
It's a known issue as they wear. You can try fresh rotors or a different brand.



Yes it should work fine, you can use the servo wave levers. I would buy the cheapest SW levers (eg. Deore with SW) so it's not a big investment if you don't like it for some reason. SLX and Zee should work fine too.

The number of pistons don't matter at all, only the total slave area, and from memory the MT 2-pot series are the same or very close to the Shimano 2-pot calipers anyway. The data should be in my spreadsheet in post #1 of this thread.
Fantastic, thanks for all your research here -- talk about a data-rich thread! :clapping:
 

toodles

ridiculously corgi proportioned
Aug 24, 2004
5,857
5,227
Australia
I had a pair of 755s that I used forever, then sold to a friend who still uses them on her Glory. Easily 15 years of regular use.

Shimano is going to sell a million of these.
Yeah I'm just being a prick. Had heaps of mates have problems with leaking newer-model XTs. I reckon if they sort that issue, these things will be awesome. I miss the days of Shimano brakes being the most reliable option around.
 

StiHacka

Compensating for something
Jan 4, 2013
21,560
12,508
In hell. Welcome!
My Saintgura frankenbrakes are great performers, too. I even scored a spare pair of MTS for $25 shipped, including a few sets of new pads.
 

marshalolson

Turbo Monkey
May 25, 2006
1,774
532
@kidwoo (and anyone else) what is your cura take-away? Remind me why you swapped levers? Is that vital? Or just make them a little more punchy?

Still trying to find some real feedback on those brakes...
 
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Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,858
7,107
borcester rhymes
I had planned to mate MT5 calipers to my Zee/Deore levers over the next weeks,
Still, the full set of MT5s with levers is only a bit more expensive than one XT caliper, so i might stil go through with it.
jack_Nicholson_nodding.gif

What's the difference between zees and xt 4 pots? seems to me that nobody complains about shimano power, just reliability.
 

Sandro

Terrified of Cucumbers
Nov 12, 2006
3,228
2,541
The old world
What's the difference between zees and xt 4 pots? seems to me that nobody complains about shimano power, just reliability.
Probably the just the logo, same as Zee and Saint that also only have different levers from what i understand. I haven't had too many problems with my Shimano brakes, but my childlike forearms and womanly hands wouldn't mind more power. The Magura piston has a 10% larger surface area than the Saint/Zee one and 19% larger than (old) XT/SLX/XTR.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
My chinese non ceramic pistons were waiting for me when I got home. I ordered 4 'units' and got 4 pistons.......so one pair of brakes. Just fyi in case anyone else wants to maybe try and salvage some shimano brakes.

Unfortunately I screwed up my back pretty badly saturday so won't be able ride them for a while. Might install them anyway just to see if they leak sitting there.
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,918
1,213
:hmm: All the XT line would need is an 83 spindle crank
Yeah I've been wishing this for a decade now.
It would be awesome if they gave them the steel pedal inserts too, they did it on the Hone "double" years ago and it only added ~15g or something. Mine are still going strong. Dreaming though, Shimano don't do anything good anymore apart from respraying old junk different colors.

I've wondered if the boost version could be made to work on an 83mm frame, they don't come in 165 yet (the normal ones do, not sure why that PB article made it out to be a new thing) but maybe soon.

What's the difference between zees and xt 4 pots?
See above RE: respraying old junk.
 

iRider

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2008
5,720
3,187

slyfink

Turbo Monkey
Sep 16, 2008
9,801
5,633
Ottawa, Canada
yo
My chinese non ceramic pistons were waiting for me when I got home. I ordered 4 'units' and got 4 pistons.......so one pair of brakes. Just fyi in case anyone else wants to maybe try and salvage some shimano brakes.

Unfortunately I screwed up my back pretty badly saturday so won't be able ride them for a while. Might install them anyway just to see if they leak sitting there.
you can replace just the pistons? Can you link to said item? I slightly damaged one of my pistons trying to push it back in with a screw driver (rookie sleep-deprived dad mistake...). It's on the edge that pushes the pad, so I don't think it will have immediate impacts, but it might score the bore-hole (is that even a word)...
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,918
1,213
There is a solution for running XT cranks on a 83 mm BB: http://forums.mtbr.com/downhill-freeride/83-mm-bottom-bracket-xt-cranks-sort-440229.html (CAUTION: Emptybeer link!)
Then you could use these: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001PTCKJO?tag=MBTRForums-VigLink-Convert-20
Voila, you did what Shimano couldn't.
Yeah, was aware of that (although not that they came in 165mm, wonder how common that is in that big-gear version..) - but it looks like a huge fiasco I cbf with.

The Gravity Light 7050 hollow forged cranks (which come 165/83 natively) are 90g heavier than XT and 70g lighter than Saint, so probably a good "easy" intermediate option (+ have chromo pedal inserts). I ran them years ago and had no problems - same twin-pinchbolt interface as Shimano (big fan). Might run again.
 

maxyedor

<b>TOOL PRO</b>
Oct 20, 2005
5,496
3,141
In the bathroom, fighting a battle
They might use a slightly lighter casting on the xt stuff.

But yeah......not sure the point other than just saying you have the same logo as your drivetrain or something for a build kit.

You must have missed the release of e-bike specific cranks in the same press release. E-bikes, goddamn dentists on e-bikes are going too fast and weight too much so regular XT brakes can't slow them down.
 

Inclag

Turbo Monkey
Sep 9, 2001
2,779
462
MA
So have we root caused that the ceramic pistons are the problem with Shimano brakes? I'd be interested if anyone has a surface profilometer and could quantify the rms or microinch surface texture of the ceramic. Seems to me just looking at them that they are far rougher than a metal piston....
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
So have we root caused that the ceramic pistons are the problem with Shimano brakes? I'd be interested if anyone has a surface profilometer and could quantify the rms or microinch surface texture of the ceramic. Seems to me just looking at them that they are far rougher than a metal piston....
Might be seals or just the way they interact with the ceramic.

It's the only thing unique about the shimanos so I've just assumed that was the reason since I really don't know of any other brakes with this issue.

@atrokz: a month ain't gonna do it. They all work great at first. If you notice when you leave your bike unridden for a few days that your pads seem a little squeaky and you need to burn them in for them to grab again.......that's when you'll know it's starting.
 

Lelandjt

adorbs
Apr 4, 2008
2,639
998
Breckenridge, CO/Lahaina,HI
Has Shimano come out and said what if anything is different between XT 4 piston and Zee calipers? I'm betting just color.

Since I made a post anyway I might as well come out and say I don't understand what you guys are getting on about. All my 2 piston Shimano brakes (SLX 7000, XT 8000, XTR Trail 988, and XTR Race 9000) works flawlessly and have plenty of power. 4 piston brakes always seem like more hassle cuz it's twice the number of pistons to get moving and retracting the same distance. And it's not just me, at our shop we see a lot of brakes and all the mechanics love Shimano and bitch about Guides. For what it's worth my Formula The Ones and R1s also work perfectly but the pads sit so close to the rotors that they often get a little rub.

The only thing I can think seperating my experience from the rest of you is that I have so many bikes that the use gets spread out, but some of my bikes are 4+ years old so you'd think problems would have shown up by now.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
I've owned multiple iterations of every 'era' of shimano brakes since 2003. Ever since the ceramic pistons came out, every single pair of them has done what's been described ad nauseum here. My buddy's bike shop has a box in the back specifically for placing their warranty shimano brakes to go back for the week/month. Shimano is well aware of the problem which makes it even worse because they don't fix it. They just take the shitty trek frame approach and replace them.

But even my trusty old 810 calipers finally started doing it, although it took about 4-5 years.

I think you're right about usage (cuz duh) accelerating the process. I typically have two bikes I descend on (IE not a hardtail) and am usually riding 4-6 days a week. I've pretty much settled into getting about a season's worth out of a pair of newer ones before they get wonky.

The reason I and udi make such a big deal about it is because it's fucking dangerous. Burning off the oil from your pads is no big deal because it's typically not much, but if you let it go long enough, you will eventually get a dead pull on your brakes, hopefully not somewhere serious. I almost went off a cliff from that shit a few years ago and you don't forget that kind of stuff. Other brakes don't do this. And every single pair of shimanos I've had the last 6-8 years eventually exhibits this problem.