[MikeD]

So, just wondering what people's thoughts were on some issues:

1. If an illegal alien comes here and commits fraud to stay here, say, assuming the ID of an American or legal immigrant (dead or alive), and gets away with it for 20-30 years, should he be prosecuted and/or deported for it?

2. If the same alien brings his/her family into the country by way of this same fraud, should the family be allowed to stay?

 

[Slugman]

#1 - prosecuted and deported
#2 - family prosecuted and deported

Seems fairly simple to me

 

[MikeD]

#1 - prosecuted and deported
#2 - family prosecuted and deported

Seems fairly simple to me

Have you considered applying to be an Assistant US Attorney?

 

[Slugman]

Why?

Dude, come here illegally - prosecute and deport. No big debate on that one.

Now the issue is the multi-year wait to get lagal status or even a work permit...

 

[LordOpie]

Illegal immigration is a victimless crime, so I'm for amnesty.

 

[$tinkle]

hmmmm....

first, the oracle needs to see pix

 

[jimmydean]

If they are holding a job (paying taxes on assumed SSN) and at least trying to gain legal status, I'm cool with that.

But if they come here to traffic drugs and have no intention of paying taxes, then just shot them and be done with it.

 

[LordOpie]

traffic drugs is on the same level as "tax evasion"?

Let's not forget, most illegals make so little that they might qualify for paying no income taxes. And obviously, they pay sales tax wherever they live.

Another reason why removing the income tax system and going strictly consumption tax is a good idea.

 

[$tinkle]

would a proper analogy to this thread be what judgment shall be imposed upon a proper u.s. citizen being on the lam for any other crime, then caught years later (i.e., non-violent cold case)?

or an awol gi caught overseas after many years?

 

[MikeD]

Illegal immigration is a victimless crime, so I'm for amnesty.

I think you're being sarcastic, but if you're not:

This isn't about the act of immigration, legal or not, it's about fraud.

Let's say you were a legal immigrant who went to naturalize and were almost arrested b/c someone had stolen your ID and naturalized in it already. Besides almost being arrested, your naturalization is delayed/screwed up and so are your credit and taxes.

But there are judges and prosecutors who think that since someone's been getting away with a crime for 20-30 years, and since their families are here, too, they should decline to prosecute.

Of course, not all cases are as malign as the one above...sometimes, the victim of the fraud (aside from the US gov't) is dead or otherwise unaffected. However, in my opinion, the hard line should be fraud=prosecution and prosecution of an illegal should always end in deportation after or in lieu of a criminal conviction/sentence.

If they are holding a job (paying taxes on assumed SSN) and at least trying to gain legal status, I'm cool with that.

But if they come here to traffic drugs and have no intention of paying taxes, then just shot them and be done with it.

Would you be cool with it if it was your SSN they were using, or if it was your dead infant brother's name?

Why?

I was agreeing with ya.

would a proper analogy to this thread be what judgment shall be imposed upon a proper u.s. citizen being on the lam for any other crime, then caught years later (i.e., non-violent cold case)?

or an awol gi caught overseas after many years?

Well, maybe if you believe in actually prosecuting them. Many people think that it's wrong to prosecute someone who's embedded himself and his family in a stolen or invented identity once they've established themselves in it.

Me, I think all fraud should be prosecuted, all the time. It sucks, honestly, when you're facing an old guy who works 16 hours a day, 7 days a week to support his family and seems like a decent dude, and you're having to confront him with the truth and get him to admit it...but in the end, if he regretted doing it, he had the choice over his 30 years of lies to tell any and everyone the truth. Start building a house on a foundation of bull**** and it'll sink eventually...in the end, they're simply reaping what they've sown, and the example of his ruin and misery WILL in fact be a deterrent to others. People only do this because they think there won't be consequences.

 

[LordOpie]

I think you're being sarcastic, but if you're not:

This isn't about the act of immigration, legal or not, it's about fraud.

My comment was strictly about people being here illegally and just trying to start a life.

Stealing someones ID and ruining their credit or such stuff is a seperate issue. Taking my SS# strictly for the purposes of getting a job and NOTHING else actually helps me as they contribute (albeit very little) to my SS acct.


Stealing a non-citizens "ID" who is in the process of getting naturalized sounds way too complicated for anyone but a sophisticated criminal who's selling that to an illegal that has more money than patience. That's NOT your typical illegal.

I'm guessing you know someone personally who got screwed?

 

[LordOpie]

...be a deterrent to others. People only do this because they think there won't be consequences.

Huh? How would 99% of illegals find out about these consequences BEFORE they come here illegally?

Are you going to advertise on TV *in* Mexico?

Deterrents don't work if people don't know.

 

[MikeD]

My comment was strictly about people being here illegally and just trying to start a life.

Stealing someones ID and ruining their credit or such stuff is a seperate issue. Taking my SS# strictly for the purposes of getting a job and NOTHING else actually helps me as they contribute (albeit very little) to my SS acct.

The thread was specifically about the fraud nexus, not immigration on its own.

Are you willing to hand your ssn out to illegals? You think they should be able to use other people's numbers without consequence?? That's showing a lot of faith. You have no way of controlling what someone does with that number, willingly or accidentally.

And fraud is simply morally wrong. I don't want an "honest" person coming to this country if his honesty involves lying as a precondition for being here.

Stealing a non-citizens "ID" who is in the process of getting naturalized sounds way too complicated for anyone but a sophisticated criminal who's selling that to an illegal that has more money than patience. That's NOT your typical illegal.

I'm guessing you know someone personally who got screwed?

Buying a stolen green card with a photo that looks like you isn't that sophisticated. Getting naturalized in the identity and bringing your whole family over is easy.from that point.

However, I do see cases of dizzying amounts of fraud that I can barely follow, much less imagine myself conceiving and executing. Some of these guys are really brilliant. Many of them prey on their own immigrant ethnic communities as well.

I deal with these issues day in and day out.

 

[MikeD]

Huh? How would 99% of illegals find out about these consequences BEFORE they come here illegally?

Are you going to advertise on TV *in* Mexico?

Deterrents don't work if people don't know.

Do you not think that people communicate back to their home countries via family and friends to say what's working and what's not??? Much of this stuff is passed word-of-mouth. Or various document vendors in the home country convince people that they can do XYZ to get into America illegally...if someone knows a friend or cousin who got popped for it, they're going to reconsider the rosy image that the guy who wants their $4000 is presenting.

Are you racist enough to think Mexicans or Pakistanis can't use a telephone or *gasp* email?

 

[LordOpie]

Are you racist enough to think Mexicans or Pakistanis can't use a telephone or *gasp* email?

Isn't that why they come here?

 

[$tinkle]

Huh? How would 99% of illegals find out about these consequences BEFORE they come here illegally?

Are you going to advertise on TV *in* Mexico?

Deterrents don't work if people don't know.

hope they don't read teh funny pages, as published by the mexican gov't

 

[ohio]

People only do this because they think there won't be consequences.

Or because the consequences 30 years from now after a life as a pseudo-legal seems a better option picking strawberries as an illegal for the rest of your life.

 

[ohio]

Some of these guys are really brilliant. Many of them prey on their own immigrant ethnic communities as well.

Then nail the guys orchestrating and encouraging the fraud, not the ones that are sold on this being their best option (which it probably is).

 

[$tinkle]

Or because the consequences 30 years from now after a life as a pseudo-legal seems a better option picking strawberries as an illegal for the rest of your life.

not possible; their backs are only good for 5-7 yrs

Then nail the guys orchestrating and encouraging the fraud, not the ones that are sold on this being their best option (which it probably is).

impeach bush?
tell me more...

 

[MikeD]

Then nail the guys orchestrating and encouraging the fraud, not the ones that are sold on this being their best option (which it probably is).

Oh, geez, I hadn't thought of that.

 

[MikeD]

Or because the consequences 30 years from now after a life as a pseudo-legal seems a better option picking strawberries as an illegal for the rest of your life.

Seriously, though. If you knew of several people whose lives had collapsed after 30 years, saw the anguish and pain it caused, you'd think twice about heading down the same path. If you knew several people who'd lived and died in the US, consequence-free, and brought their families over here successfully, you'd wonder "why can't I do that, too??"

Best option of all is not immigrating illegally OR committing fraud. NO ONE forces people over the border except themselves. They may see more opportunity here, but they have no inherent right to come here because of that. Nor does their illegal presence here somehow make fraud they commit in support of it legitimate or honorable. They run the risks and I don't feel at all bad that they face the consequences.

I do think it's a travesty that a simple, legal guest worker program (not a path to permanent residence) with mutual benefit for all hasn't been managed. I had a good plan on that one like last year.

 

[LordOpie]

Why do you hate freedom?

Ok, no, seriously, why is the issue so important to you?

Sure, fraud is wrong, but wouldn't you do everything in your power to improve your family's situation so long as it didn't directly injure someone else?

 

[ATOMICFIREBALL]

DEPORT THEM ALL. Friggin spanish printed on everything. Demanding rights when they aren't even legal citizens.ETC,ETC.

THIS SUBJECT IS NOT EVEN WORTH DEBATING .
If i lived close to the border i would be having some good sniper practice shooting legs. But then,they would sue America for descrimination after the free visit to the emergency room.!

 

[LordOpie]

DEPORT THEM ALL. Friggin spanish printed on everything. Demanding rights when they aren't even legal citizens.ETC,ETC.

THIS SUBJECT IS NOT EVEN WORTH DEBATING .
If i lived close to the border i would be having some good sniper practice shooting legs. But then,they would sue America for descrimination after the free visit to the emergency room.!

hey, dhracist has lost his proud position amongst us monkeys.

May I present... ATOMICRACIST.

 

[MikeD]

Why do you hate freedom?

Ok, no, seriously, why is the issue so important to you?

Sure, fraud is wrong, but wouldn't you do everything in your power to improve your family's situation so long as it didn't directly injure someone else?

I was just asking as more of a public opinion poll...shouldn't have begun opining myself. Was just wondering if I was taking crazy pills or if it's just the geographic area I'm working in. There's just a big division in opinion here where most people think that since someone's gotten away with fraud for an extended period, we might as well just forget it, with a minority that thinks "Good lord! 30 years of fraud without repenting? String him up!"

I've never said I didn't understand why people do it. But it doesn't make it right, doesn't make it harmless, and doesn't mean criminals shouldn't face consequences. Nor should we allow any method of crossing our borders without our knowledge or control.

 

[LordOpie]

Build a wall.

We'll keep out them dam Mongolians yet!

 

[MikeD]

Build a wall.

We'll keep out them dam Mongolians yet!

Gonna need a lot of Mexicans to build a wall that big...

 

[LordOpie]

Gonna need a lot of Mexicans to build a wall that big...

or one really pissed off Chinese restaurant own.

 

[ohio]

Oh, geez, I hadn't thought of that.

Obviously...

But why punish the little people? Squeeze 'em for info, sure, but I don't think it's a fraud worthy of deportation. Maaaaaybe serious fines... enough to get them to always cut deals for info.

 

[LordOpie]

Obviously...

But why punish the little people? Squeeze 'em for info, sure, but I don't think it's a fraud worthy of deportation. Maaaaaybe serious fines... enough to get them to always cut deals for info.

Fines should obviously be used strictly to get info.

My PROBLEM with the whole issue is that we seem to be spending a lot more money on "fixing" it than the problem causes.

 

[ohio]

I do think it's a travesty that a simple, legal guest worker program (not a path to permanent residence) with mutual benefit for all hasn't been managed. I had a good plan on that one like last year.

Bingo. Ounce o' prevention = pound o' cure.

By the way, my old roomate's dad (Italian) was deported at roughly age 65, after living in the US for ~40 years, marrying a US citizen, and having kids here. So as far as I know this is enforced, and not forgiven just because someone has been here for many many years.

 

[jimmydean]

Would you be cool with it if it was your SSN they were using, or if it was your dead infant brother's name?

Last I checked, you couldn't buy my SSN for $20 at the bus station in Woodburn, but it's been a few years. They were selling "recycled" socials. I'm not saying it's right, but neither is the system.

I get just as mad when I see things like CEO's who draw a $1 salary to avoid paying taxes.

 

[MikeD]

Obviously...

But why punish the little people? Squeeze 'em for info, sure, but I don't think it's a fraud worthy of deportation. Maaaaaybe serious fines... enough to get them to always cut deals for info.

Because I can? If they have something better to offer me, I'm all ears. But in the meantime, "He told me it was a good idea" isn't much of a defense. And typically, we get great stories like "this guy in an ice-cream truck showed up one day and started selling fake documents out the side. No, seriously." No one remembers a thing, because they know I won't shoot them in the kneecaps for squealing.

We do push vendor cases whenever possible...but I'm also charged with doing very specific things, and immigration violations alone, as well as broader sorts of fraud, are nice...but not what the big bosses want to see in the end.

And I can't simply charge into Mexico and start arresting document vendors/facilitators there. Nor are the Mexicans eager to do/support that themselves... there's too much money in bribes, I'm sure, and the government itself pretty much supports illegal crossing into the States.

And deportation is not a serious punishment. Hell, it's not even a punishment at all...it's administrative, based on a lack of legal status in the US. Some districts decline prosecution altogether and simply deport non-violent, first-or-second time offenders. Some, like in the idiotic "sanctuary" cities, prosecute and take a plea on a misdemeanor possession of false ID charge (18 USC 1028) which leads to a $25 fine and a year or two of probation.

But when legal authorities have legal custody of someone with no legal standing in the country, IMHO, that person should be deported as soon as legal proceedings are complete, or lieu of them if they're declined.

 

[ohio]

There's just a big division in opinion here where most people think that since someone's gotten away with fraud for an extended period

I AM of that opinion, though not exactly in the words you put it. But if someone has proven themselves a productive member of society in that time, then yes, I'm willing to forgive the fraud. Your arguments against it are:
1. that it's inconvenient to someone who's had their identity co-opted... I know bureacracy sucks, but that's a minimal issue to sort out in my mind.
2. It's fraud and always will be. Agreed it's a crime, but to me it's a minor one and fits into the "stealing bread for the starving child" category of crimes. Punishable, but not justification to destroy lives and tear apart families.

Of course, if it means that ATOMICASSFACE and I need to learn Spanish, then that just goes too far and we should string them all up.

 

[MikeD]

Bingo. Ounce o' prevention = pound o' cure.

100%

By the way, my old roomate's dad (Italian) was deported at roughly age 65, after living in the US for ~40 years, marrying a US citizen, and having kids here. So as far as I know this is enforced, and not forgiven just because someone has been here for many many years.

Depends on where you are. Sometimes/places it happens, other times not. Sometimes it happens, but only with lots of pushback from the system that is supposed to be facilitating it.

 

[ohio]

And deportation is not a serious punishment. Hell, it's not even a punishment at all...it's administrative, based on a lack of legal status in the US. Some districts decline prosecution altogether and simply deport non-violent, first-or-second time offenders. Some, like in the idiotic "sanctuary" cities, prosecute and take a plea on a misdemeanor possession of false ID charge (18 USC 1028) which leads to a $25 fine and a year or two of probation.

Sure it's not technically a punishment, but we know it still is one, especially for someone who has lived here a long time. Why not just make the fines far more extreme, and if they can't pay up deport them? Say $100,000 or so?

 

[MikeD]

Using someone else's identity in the commission of certain crimes, including forms of immigration, social security, and document fraud, is punishable under the aggravated identity theft statute (18 USC1028 A, different than the regular 1028 statute) is a (ed) MANDATORY(ed) TWO YEAR JAIL TIME offense. So I think we're going pretty easy on people. Some districts are actually using the law (god forbid) and have seen a huge drop in certain types of fraud, which were previously almost consequence-free.

I'm for a fraud-free society. Period. "Productive members of society" aren't liars and cheats.

 

[MikeD]

Sure it's not technically a punishment, but we know it still is one, especially for someone who has lived here a long time. Why not just make the fines far more extreme, and if they can't pay up deport them? Say $100,000 or so?

So you think it's more moral to let rich illegals stay and axe the poor ones? Sort of goes against the underdog/hooray-for-the-little-guy approach you seem to advocate.

Any illegal who can afford $100k is probably involved in illicit activities, too. Can't say I think this is a brilliant solution.

Saying mere deportation is punishment is like saying returning stolen property to the owner is a punishment for the thief.

 

[MikeD]

Last I checked, you couldn't buy my SSN for $20 at the bus station in Woodburn, but it's been a few years. They were selling "recycled" socials. I'm not saying it's right, but neither is the system.

Yes, I'm sure the criminal gangs who vend fake documents are seriously interested in making sure they screen the stolen/invented SSNs they sell to ensure a nobility and moral purity to their cause. They'd never sell someone's SSN if they were alive. Simply wouldn't be American.

 

[LordOpie]

"Productive members of society" aren't liars and cheats.

You're eliminating a good chunk of humanity with that statement.