Now you know why I'm so depressed.
Fraud and illegal immigration
- Thread starter MikeD
- Start date
"Sir...Sir...you dropped your rose colored glasses...I think they'll help you out in the near future..."
Of course you don't. You don't have Down's Syndrome, which seems to be a bonafide job requirement over at immigration...
i like how you post that from work
By the way, 2 more things while my feet are still in the stirrups:
1) We're focusing on Mexicans. But there are lots of other ethnic groups and nationalities doing this. In fact, many of them can't get in without papers like many Mexicans can, so the frauds get more elaborate. Marriage fraud is huge among southeast and south Asians, especially. Anyone going to argue for them, or just the poor day laborers?
2) If you'd negotiated the Byzantine immigration system to become an American, and saw people stealing their way in through crime, you might be pissed, too. Silver may not feel this way, but I dunno. Plenty of former Mexicans are pissed.
1) We're focusing on Mexicans. But there are lots of other ethnic groups and nationalities doing this. In fact, many of them can't get in without papers like many Mexicans can, so the frauds get more elaborate. Marriage fraud is huge among southeast and south Asians, especially. Anyone going to argue for them, or just the poor day laborers?
2) If you'd negotiated the Byzantine immigration system to become an American, and saw people stealing their way in through crime, you might be pissed, too. Silver may not feel this way, but I dunno. Plenty of former Mexicans are pissed.
fvckin' stalker.
EDIT: ah got your point... posting from work is a form of lying/fraud.
Yes. Maybe $100k is high, but if they've made good use of their time they can either afford a harsh fine, or they'll spill the beans. If they can afford it through ill-gotten gains, they should be prosecuting for the ill-getting, and the act of coming up with that kind of cash probalby makes it more traceable. In my opinion the fine should be high enough that it's not payable... my goal isn't punishment but getting to the higher rungs on the ladder.
If they (plus their friends and offspring) can't afford it and they're not willing to squeal... they're probably not contributing much to society and like you said, deportation is not punishment it's returning stolen goods.
So yes, I'm a fascist, but only for people that have broken the law.
Marc,
I'm not sure I'm following you here. Flipping a subject to report on a document vendor is accomplished by many means, but requires the subject to want to flip. This fine-or-deport isn't going to work on the non-established workers, who have often previously been deported and will just walk right back in the week after they go home. For those long-time residents, possibly with families, who have been here 20 years and might have amassed a bit of wealth, their document vendor, if any, is no longer applicable...we won't find the person who sold them a doc 20 years ago, possibly in another country, and if we do, it's out of the statute of limitations.
Believe me, law enforcement flips every witness it can through a variety of means, despite the fact that the justice system pushes back by making it incredibly laborious to do body wires and consensually monitored communications, and keeping funding minimal for this stuff (unless you're chasing the Mob or known terrorists...).
But this started out with you basically pointing at the perpetrators of fraud as victims both of unscrupulous vendors and the criminal justice system. This proposal doesn't really address either of those things, except perhaps allowing some very wealthy illegally-and-fraudulently-present aliens stay in the country while the poor get deported.
I'm not sure I'm following you here. Flipping a subject to report on a document vendor is accomplished by many means, but requires the subject to want to flip. This fine-or-deport isn't going to work on the non-established workers, who have often previously been deported and will just walk right back in the week after they go home. For those long-time residents, possibly with families, who have been here 20 years and might have amassed a bit of wealth, their document vendor, if any, is no longer applicable...we won't find the person who sold them a doc 20 years ago, possibly in another country, and if we do, it's out of the statute of limitations.
Believe me, law enforcement flips every witness it can through a variety of means, despite the fact that the justice system pushes back by making it incredibly laborious to do body wires and consensually monitored communications, and keeping funding minimal for this stuff (unless you're chasing the Mob or known terrorists...).
But this started out with you basically pointing at the perpetrators of fraud as victims both of unscrupulous vendors and the criminal justice system. This proposal doesn't really address either of those things, except perhaps allowing some very wealthy illegally-and-fraudulently-present aliens stay in the country while the poor get deported.
I'm not really pissed, but that's because I didn't have a lifelong dream of coming to America. My wife is American, I love her, ergo I'm here. I'm not going to pull up the ladder just because I'm on board. Nothing makes me laugh more than an American who was naturalized during the last amnesty ranting about illegals. Plus, I don't like white people very much. Another thing that plays into it is that we could afford a good lawyer...which is not cheap and not something everything can do. Without that, I wouldn't have been able to see my grandmother before she died...nice, eh?
Oh snap, you used my real name. Gloves off, beeyotch.
I'll try to reduce my position, because I think I'm obscuring it with all this flopping about.
- I think the fraud is a function of a crappy immigration process, an opportunistic 3rd party, and to a lesser extent criminal intent of the emigree.
- Whether it's officially a punishment or just "fixing the glitch" I feel uprooting an otherwise (that is, other than this one instance of fraud) upstanding person seems disproportionate to me.
- Therefore, I am trying to find solutions that are both a more proportionate action AND will facilitate law enforcement and a better immigration system. I'm no expert in this area, so the ideas I tossed out are probably crappy ones.
Understood, but there's this presumption of an inherent right to emigrate to the US under one's own terms in your thinking. Crappy as the immigration system may be, it's representative of the laws and order of this land, and if you want to come here, best not to establish yourself here by your very first act being breaking the law and deceiving the government.
Not to mention the far larger issue of any gaps in the border/control system being wholly exploitable by criminals, terrorists, and other assholes. So we need to close those gaps, and closing them nets lots of not-quite-as-malicious people who are sneaking through as well. Screw 'em.
If you're going to play with fire, know the consequences and don't be sad when you're burned, and your family along with you.
"Otherwise upstanding" to you means "other than being, foremost, a criminal" to me.
Not to mention the far larger issue of any gaps in the border/control system being wholly exploitable by criminals, terrorists, and other assholes. So we need to close those gaps, and closing them nets lots of not-quite-as-malicious people who are sneaking through as well. Screw 'em.
If you're going to play with fire, know the consequences and don't be sad when you're burned, and your family along with you.
"Otherwise upstanding" to you means "other than being, foremost, a criminal" to me.
ha, ha. you spell it like a black grrrl
I shoplifted a Snickers when I was 10 years old and never got caught. Can we still ride together?
L
luelling
Guest
I'm not for illegal immigration and I'm against fraud, that being said....I think they should clamp down the border and completely reform the legal immigration system, its cumbersome and takes forever to get citizenship.
The reality is that hispanic immigrants do an excellent job of integrating into society and I know many first generation latino americans that have graduated college and they come parents that work the fields. Give me another ethnic group that has done that? I grew up with many Indian friends and watched them all drop out of school and do nothing.
The reality is that hispanic immigrants do an excellent job of integrating into society and I know many first generation latino americans that have graduated college and they come parents that work the fields. Give me another ethnic group that has done that? I grew up with many Indian friends and watched them all drop out of school and do nothing.
I don't understand why you construe a strong stance against fraud and identity theft to be bitterness.
Ohio (sic
),I think we both agree that there's a huge difference between stealing a snickers bar and stealing someone's identity. Plus, you realize there's a moral wrong in stealing a snickers bar. You knew it then and you know it now. Perpetrators of fraud are only sorry once they're caught, and only because they've been caught, not because of what they've done.
So yeah, the ride's on. Want to hit Joaquin Miller this weekend?
I thought you meant "Marc" for like 5 minutes. I was confused.
because of your extreme black-and-white, yes-or-no, right-or-wrong view of the subject. You allow for no grey.
If a guy absolutely lied to get here, lied to get his family here, and then busted his ass to make something of life, sent his kid to college who discovered the cure for AIDS, cancer, and why people still 'like' Twinkies cakes -and- the guy has a few months left to live cuz he's like 110 years old, but is completely supported by his rich, brilliant child.
You'd kick his sorry ass back to Pakistan.
WTF?
Well, yeah...he's a terrorist, right?
Okay, how about as a struggling college student I committed credit card fraud and got away with it. I feel bad about it, but I'm also not about to turn myself in and risk all the success I've built since then. NOW can we still go riding together?
(Also, my truck got stolen this weekend, so getting to trailheads is a bit tough right now...)
you'd think w/ a handle like yours, you'd have easily offered up asiansluelling said:
maybe i'm pronouncing it wrong?
i did
he could swap the 'c' for a 'q' for more street cred
think i'm starting to channel dhracist...
Well, if you did that, I've lost a hell of a lot of respect for you. And I seriously doubt you did...although it's possible, of course. But I can pick you up at any east bay BART if you want to ride. Because some flaming asshole took what isn't his. I hope you hadn't fixed the suspension yet.
Do you feel sorry for the ****head who stole your truck? I'm sure he feels justified in doing it. Would you feel sympathy if he stole your bike, too? You very well might, or at least will say you do for the rhetorical point here. I don't feel a bit of it, myself. Not that car theft is the world's worst crime, mind you, or that you're suffering irrepairable damage from it, but it's still a lame thing to do.
I'm not saying anyone who commits a wrong is forever a pariah, nor that they should be executed or something ridiculous like that. I'm saying that people who are caught committing fraud should pay the appropriate penalty, that's all. And removal from the country in which you're illegally present isn't even itself a punishment; it's just a restoration of the proper order of things.
However, lots of US attorneys are forbidding the deportation of illegal aliens being prosecuted for fraud unless they're also violent criminals, and sometimes even if they are. (Whereas some decline prosecution on the fraud and just deport instead, if the person's not a criminal of some other kind.) Depends on where they are.) And the penalties for fraud, when it's prosecuted, are often extraordinarily minor. (Often charged as a felony and plead to a misdemeanor possession of false documents charge, with 1-2 years probation and a $25 fee.) I never said that fraud is the most heinous crime on the face of the earth or anything.
Do you feel sorry for the ****head who stole your truck? I'm sure he feels justified in doing it. Would you feel sympathy if he stole your bike, too? You very well might, or at least will say you do for the rhetorical point here. I don't feel a bit of it, myself. Not that car theft is the world's worst crime, mind you, or that you're suffering irrepairable damage from it, but it's still a lame thing to do.
I'm not saying anyone who commits a wrong is forever a pariah, nor that they should be executed or something ridiculous like that. I'm saying that people who are caught committing fraud should pay the appropriate penalty, that's all. And removal from the country in which you're illegally present isn't even itself a punishment; it's just a restoration of the proper order of things.
However, lots of US attorneys are forbidding the deportation of illegal aliens being prosecuted for fraud unless they're also violent criminals, and sometimes even if they are. (Whereas some decline prosecution on the fraud and just deport instead, if the person's not a criminal of some other kind.) Depends on where they are.) And the penalties for fraud, when it's prosecuted, are often extraordinarily minor. (Often charged as a felony and plead to a misdemeanor possession of false documents charge, with 1-2 years probation and a $25 fee.) I never said that fraud is the most heinous crime on the face of the earth or anything.
One other thing:
We need to get rid of birthright citizenship. We're not going to enslave blacks again (which sucks, because I need to get my house painted, I can't bother to learn enough Spanish to get a Mexican to do it) so it's not something that we really need to have. That's a first step...
We need to get rid of birthright citizenship. We're not going to enslave blacks again (which sucks, because I need to get my house painted, I can't bother to learn enough Spanish to get a Mexican to do it) so it's not something that we really need to have. That's a first step...
L
luelling
Guest
Its my last name, and Welsh I might add. Original spelling was Llewellyn, much easier to pronounce
One thing about most illegal immigrants is that they hold jobs that most if not all legal residents run from. seriously, if the borders clamped down hard the price of fruit would skyrocket for instance. I've spent most of my life working in orchards and besides my brother I have never once seen or met anyone but mexican nationals in orchards.
as far as fraud goes, I would prefer if migrant workers could openly work in the USA on a seasonal work permit. It would prevent the stealing ID issue.
without the illegal immigrant labor force life in the US would be drastically different
as far as fraud goes, I would prefer if migrant workers could openly work in the USA on a seasonal work permit. It would prevent the stealing ID issue.
without the illegal immigrant labor force life in the US would be drastically different
yum yum...and for the record I entered Canada totally illegally and stole someones social insurance number
I totally agree... I went and picked cabbage and strawberries with some of my relatives when they first arrived...and doubt many citizens would take those jobs after trying them out for a day...D
So if one enters illegally, pretends to be someone else and uses that person's social security number, does one pay tax and stuff for the person you are impersonating?
Depends exactly how the fraud is perpetrated. Sometimes there's no real intersection between the victim and the imposter; oftentimes people use someone's SSN without other aspects of their identity, and the Social Security system doesn't catch this. Edit: This leads to what Opie was talking about, someone paying into your SS account without your knowledge, and not too many people reconcile their annual (or less?) statements from Social Security with their salary... (ed) It's an archaic system, but they're trying to tighten some of this stuff up.
Sometimes people assume an identity wholesale and mess up the person's credit and taxes. Oftentimes people will enter, work under an assumed SSN (fake, living, or dead), pay taxes under a separate taxpayer ID number, and then buy a set of documents belonging to/stolen from a true person, most often living, and apply separately for a US passport in this identity to try and secure de facto citizenship in the fake name. If they're successful with this, there are all kinds of derivative fraud which take place to get the family in, sometimes involving applying for a delayed-issue birth certificate for children (often in their teens) to give them a new last name to match the assumed identity's, and subsequent false visa applications to bring them in to the US.
I don't know if you're being sarcastic, too, but that would solve a LOT of problems...citizenship should be contingent on parent's long-term legal status in this country, not geographical place of birth.
Nope, totally serious.
You're born in Canada to two parents with American citizenship and no residency? You're American.
Born in the USA to two parents with Mexican citizenship and no residency? You're American.
Helen Keller could see the draw that's going to cause...
Resurrecting this thread because I thought there were some great ideas in here, immigration reform has major implications on other issues, from security, to economy, to healthcare, and ****it's election season.
Let me outline what I see as the ridemonkey immigration policy recommendation (RIPR):
- Constitutional amendment to remove birthright citizenship - highly contentious and on the outside quite conservative, but facilitates many of the following items. I would limit it to birthright citizenship for parents/mothers who are in country legally and fully-documented (with long-term status. i.e. guest workers would not qualify). In exchange, I'd also like to remove the natural born requirement for presidency. There's no reason a full citizen, from someone adopted from overseas at 2yo all the way up to Ahnold, should be excluded from the process for birthplace alone.
- Institute guest-worker program - large enough to fill needs currently filled by illegals, and fast enough to allow for seasonal work. Requires full documentation (ID with image and RFID, fingerprinting for background and cross-check if possible). Can only be applied for via US embassies in-person.
- Strict deportation/prosecution policy - per MikeD's rec, any illegal or undocumented will be imprisoned and/or deported. Looking for some way to decrease return illegals, and decrease financial burden on American prisons at same time. Open to suggestions.
- Massively increased immigration and visa quotas - again, must originate in-person at US embassies, but ease and open the process for the path to legal documented guest workers and immigrants.
- Temporary amnesty (1 yr?, 2yrs?) to facilitate current in-country illegals to apply for proper documentation which requires the trip back and forth to apply in a US embassy.
Did I miss anything? Aside from this being political suicide, would it work? It strikes me as fair, non-partisan, and functional (at a high-level... obviously without the specifics and the number crunching it's pretty worthless).
Let me outline what I see as the ridemonkey immigration policy recommendation (RIPR):
- Constitutional amendment to remove birthright citizenship - highly contentious and on the outside quite conservative, but facilitates many of the following items. I would limit it to birthright citizenship for parents/mothers who are in country legally and fully-documented (with long-term status. i.e. guest workers would not qualify). In exchange, I'd also like to remove the natural born requirement for presidency. There's no reason a full citizen, from someone adopted from overseas at 2yo all the way up to Ahnold, should be excluded from the process for birthplace alone.
- Institute guest-worker program - large enough to fill needs currently filled by illegals, and fast enough to allow for seasonal work. Requires full documentation (ID with image and RFID, fingerprinting for background and cross-check if possible). Can only be applied for via US embassies in-person.
- Strict deportation/prosecution policy - per MikeD's rec, any illegal or undocumented will be imprisoned and/or deported. Looking for some way to decrease return illegals, and decrease financial burden on American prisons at same time. Open to suggestions.
- Massively increased immigration and visa quotas - again, must originate in-person at US embassies, but ease and open the process for the path to legal documented guest workers and immigrants.
- Temporary amnesty (1 yr?, 2yrs?) to facilitate current in-country illegals to apply for proper documentation which requires the trip back and forth to apply in a US embassy.
Did I miss anything? Aside from this being political suicide, would it work? It strikes me as fair, non-partisan, and functional (at a high-level... obviously without the specifics and the number crunching it's pretty worthless).
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No, that looks about right.
edit: Massive fines and prison terms for companies that hire illegal workers unless they can prove they were the victims of fraud by said worker. "We lost all the forms. Oopsie!" is not to be considered a valid defense. That should help regulate the demand side of the equation quite nicely.
It would never pass. Pisses off everyone.
<GOP>Amnesty for wetbacks? A President who was born in Thailand? Over my dead body. USA! USA! USA!</GOP>
<DNC>Guest workers take jobs from Americans! Deporting people is wrong! USA! USA! USA!</DNC>
edit: Massive fines and prison terms for companies that hire illegal workers unless they can prove they were the victims of fraud by said worker. "We lost all the forms. Oopsie!" is not to be considered a valid defense. That should help regulate the demand side of the equation quite nicely.
It would never pass. Pisses off everyone.
<GOP>Amnesty for wetbacks? A President who was born in Thailand? Over my dead body. USA! USA! USA!</GOP>
<DNC>Guest workers take jobs from Americans! Deporting people is wrong! USA! USA! USA!</DNC>
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Been saying virtually the exact same thing for a while now.
I don't care either way about the presidential issue but I do think Business (large and small) could push something along these lines through. I'll go as far to say that, given time, we will be forced to implement such a plan.
My only addition would be that the visas include a tax ID# that gets paid into by employers for both income tax and payment into a guest worker health plan.
I don't care either way about the presidential issue but I do think Business (large and small) could push something along these lines through. I'll go as far to say that, given time, we will be forced to implement such a plan.
My only addition would be that the visas include a tax ID# that gets paid into by employers for both income tax and payment into a guest worker health plan.