[LordOpie]

Tench, think of it this way...

If you knew every single factor about a publically traded company, the economy, every investor, etc., then you would know exactly what it's going to be trading at tomorrow. It doesn't mean you were involved in anyway, you just knew everything. It doesn't mean Wall Street doesn't have it's own free will.

Did that analogy make sense?

Originally posted by Andyman_1970 (These thoughts I have are based on the Scriptures and how God has acted in the past, not my own random thoughts) [/B]

Of course they're not YOUR thoughts, you're not allowed to have any. You have no free thoughts

 

[Tenchiro]

Originally posted by LordOpie
Yeah, that made no sense. If G-d wasn't involved, then how do we not freely make our choices?

Imperfect analogy time (so don't bust my balls over it)

I guess it is like watching a movie, when you have already read the script. You personally had nothing to do with the outcome, but you still knew what was going to happen.

 

[Jr_Bullit]

Originally posted by Tenchiro
In this line of thought, condemning someone to prison for example would also be pre-determined.

Ah, yes, but as Kai pointed out...we learn from our past behaviors, so if we were to "decide" that everything was pre-determined, then we could eliminate our current judicial system and just put the dangerousones on an island to kill themselves in anarchical glee!

 

[Tenchiro]

Originally posted by Jr_Bullit
Ah, yes, but as Kai pointed out...we learn from our past behaviors, so if we were to "decide" that everything was pre-determined, then we could eliminate our current judicial system and just put the dangerousones on an island to kill themselves in anarchical glee!

But are we truly learning from past choices, or do we just think we are. If there were truly no free will, we would be nothing more than actors on a stage.

 

[Jr_Bullit]

But also...you only answered the 2nd part of two...

How can there be a heaven or hell if God already knows exactly what we are going to do?

How can there be any kind of afterlife judgement on our actions and decisions made in life, if in fact there is no true freewhile and everything is pre-determined rather than self-determined.

One cannot be denied everlasting peace and happiness and sent to hell if in fact one did not have a choice in his/her behavior during life...and also how could god provide us with heaven if our decisions are predetermined...when in fact he would never have any way of knowing if we were truly faithful to him...without self-determination, we have no choice in what we believe or don't believe...

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by Jr_Bullit
Ah, yes, but as Kai pointed out...we learn from our past behaviors, so if we were to "decide" that everything was pre-determined, then we could eliminate our current judicial system and just put the dangerousones on an island to kill themselves in anarchical glee!

Do I hear a Battle Royale III?

 

[Jr_Bullit]

Originally posted by Tenchiro
But are we truly learning from past choices, or do we just think we are. If there were truly no free will, we would be nothing more than actors on a stage.

True...and good point, so maybe we are predetermined to question this very thing which will lead to a life of pure anarchy until the human race has killed most of itself off

 

[Andyman_1970]

Originally posted by Jr_Bullit
How can there be a heaven or hell if God already knows exactly what we are going to do?

There is a difference between God knowing what is going to happen and God influencing what will happen.

Now, according to the Scriptures, God sometimes (not always) influences events on earth either through His own actions (flood, plauges, etc) or through the actions of His people.

This however does not change that in the history of the Bible story, humans have had the choice of whether to follow Him or not.

Originally posted by Jr_Bullit
...without self-determination, we have no choice in what we believe or don't believe...

Excellent arguement "for" freewill. God as revealed in the Bible does give humans a choice.

 

[Tenchiro]

Originally posted by Jr_Bullit
But also...you only answered the 2nd part of two...

How can there be a heaven or hell if God already knows exactly what we are going to do?

How can there be any kind of afterlife judgement on our actions and decisions made in life, if in fact there is no true freewhile and everything is pre-determined rather than self-determined.

One cannot be denied everlasting peace and happiness and sent to hell if in fact one did not have a choice in his/her behavior during life...and also how could god provide us with heaven if our decisions are predetermined...when in fact he would never have any way of knowing if we were truly faithful to him...without self-determination, we have no choice in what we believe or don't believe...

I always wondered how the choices we make in one lifetime, can merit an eternity of punishment. Well maybe someone like Hitler deserves that kind of punishment...

But for the average person, technially all they have to do for their eternity of fire and brimstone is not ask forgiveness for their sins.

In the case of god being omniscient and there being no true free will, maybe god is as powerless as we are to only act out pre-determined events.

 

[Jr_Bullit]

Originally posted by Andyman_1970
There is a difference between God knowing what is going to happen and God influencing what will happen.

Now, according to the Scriptures, God sometimes (not always) influences events on earth either through His own actions (flood, plauges, etc) or through the actions of His people.

This however does not change that in the history of the Bible story, humans have had the choice of whether to follow Him or not.



Excellent arguement "for" freewill. God as revealed in the Bible does give humans a choice.

Okay, but what I don't understand is...if god already knows what the outcome is...i.e. not influencing events, but knows how events will play out regardless...then how do we have freewill...we simply have a semblance of freewill and that is quite different. So how can he pass judgement on people if the events that do come to pass are already pre-determined?

 

[Andyman_1970]

Originally posted by Jr_Bullit
Okay, but what I don't understand is...if god already knows what the outcome is...i.e. not influencing events, but knows how events will play out regardless...then how do we have freewill...we simply have a semblance of freewill and that is quite different. So how can he pass judgement on people if the events that do come to pass are already pre-determined?

This is what I love about my faith, exploring these deep questions.

Anyway, He knows the choice you make, but if He does not influence it, then you have the freedom to accept or reject His way.

This raises some even more "disturbing" questions (not to turn the discussion that direction). Like if God says He desires all men to know Him, and He knows who will accept and reject Him, why does He allow them to be born? I have no clue.

 

[Andyman_1970]

This is a pretty decent explaination of the whole God's foreknowledge vs. freewill thing (mind you this is from a Christian perspective).

I found it on one of the website's I reference, it's pretty handy in dealing with Theological issues like this:


1.God knows every decision that I am going to make tomorrow.
A.Correct.

2. For sake of simplicity, let's assume that I am going to make only one decision tomorrow. My decision will be whether or not to go to my aerobics class at the gym.

A. decision is a choice about something that you want to do or believe. It is drawing a conclusion while considering the options. Your statement that you are going to make the decision means that you admit that you are the one making the choice. By definition then, you are freely choosing to do something. Therefore, to later say that you have no choice in what you are doing is a contradiction of your statement here.


3.God knows what decision I will make. He has it written on his "list."

A. There is no "list" that God has anywhere of the things that anyone is going to do. The knowledge of God is not a list. It is simply necessarily complete since He knows all things. This is because God's nature requires that He know all things since He is everywhere all the time: the past, present, and future.


4.His "list" can't be wrong. This is not an issue of the list being wrong. It is simply a fact that God knows all things. Whatever you choose to do is what God knows will happen. If you chose not to go to the class, then that is what God would have known would be your choice. So, whichever choice you freely make is the one God knows you will make.

A. Furthermore, the "list" will always be right. That is, it is always right because it is a list of the free will choices you want to make. Read below...


5. If his "list" says I am going to my aerobics class, I must go. The problem here is that the idea of a list introduces the error that there is a set list of things that the person must accomplish, because it is on a list for them to do. This is not the case. You do not go to the gym because it is on the list that you must fulfill. It is simply an advance recording of what you will do based on the choices you will freely make.

A. A better understanding of the "list" idea would be if God wrote a list of the things you did after you did them. He can do this since He is in the future and can look back from the future to see what you chose to do at any time. Time is relative to God. Because you have already done them freely (from God's future perspective looking backward), the list can be made accurately by God. Since He is also in the past and present, He can even show us this list in advance...only for Him it happened a long time ago as He watched you freely do what you wanted to do. So, since God is in all places at all time, He can look back in time to get the list, and then even reveal it in advance to you. It would be a list of things you freely chose to do -- or should I say, that you will freely choose to do.


6. The fact that "I must go" is incompatible with the statement that I am free to decide whether to go or not to go. There is no "must" in this situation. You will freely choose.

A.There is no incompatibility at all if we see that God simply knows what our choices are going to be before we make them since it is necessarily true that He knows all things.

B.Furthermore, this idea of God's knowledge and peoples' freedom is ultimately an unanswerable issue since it involves us working in time and God is outside of time. Our question deals with a situation from a perspective inside of time where God is outside of time. By default, our questions and answers concerning this issue cannot be complete. Past, present, and future are concepts and realities created for us, not God. say we have no freedom -- even if God knows all things.

 

[Tenchiro]

Originally posted by Andyman_1970
This is what I love about my faith, exploring these deep questions.

Anyway, He knows the choice you make, but if He does not influence it, then you have the freedom to accept or reject His way.

If that is the case, and god already knows the choice you will make you really have no freedom at all. Only the illusion of it.

 

[Jr_Bullit]

Originally posted by Tenchiro
If that is the case, and god already knows the choice you will make you really have no freedom at all. Only the illusion of it.

Exactly...but for these very reasons, I prefer my own way of looking at things....

Sort of an aside - I'm not a christian, but have read the bible, went to sunday classes, and agree with many of their teachings that overlap with my own personal belief system...My thoughts are still fledgling, and I will claim they are fledgling through the whole of my life

I don't believe in god...not in the christian sense...I believe in something...I think we use words like god to help bring the infinitessimal down to a bite sized chunk that makes it easier to comprehend and explain to others.
I do believe to some extent in fate...but in a different sense...perhaps you'll put a different term on this:

1) I believe we each live multiple lives, in each life we either move further up the food chain that is consciousness or down it. There comes a point when your stream of consciousness will take you into that which is known in some religions as Nirvana...from there you start the cycle over again, and you and your "soul" if you will continue to travel throughout different levels or plains of existence. I don't know where this current life is within that chain, but I do believe that the next one or Nirvana, could also be classified in a similar vein as Heaven or Hell (depending on which direction you go when your consciousness gets there), I simply don't believe that either of these "places" are actual destinations or stopping points.

2) I believe that each person has a series of things they are challenged with in life in order to advance themselves and their understanding of the world around them. We each have a specific group of other "souls" we know from previous lives that help us move further along. These things are predetermined, but loosely so. They are determined only because of what you must learn in order to move further along in your own understanding of life. You have the freewill to choose a path when each obstacle or event is presented to you, the path you choose will lead to a certain series of events...and it will continue to split as you move forward. If the path you choose does not lead to an advancement of your own understanding of life, does not benefit you as a human being, as a soul, as a creature on this rock then you do not move forward, or even backwards, but simply stay stagnant and will repeat events until you either make a different kind of decision or repeat a similar existence in another life.

I think we are all at different stages of consciousness, I don't believe any one person can really understand where they are. I also don't believe there is an end or a beginning, but simply a cycle.

That's my take on freewill...yes you have it, but certain events are destined to place themselves in front of you that only have so many options and can only take you down so many paths. You can choose to learn or not learn from previous experience in order to move further along.

 

[$tinkle]

Originally posted by Jr_Bullit
1) I believe we each live multiple lives, in each life we either move further up the food chain that is consciousness or down it. There comes a point when your stream of consciousness will take you into that which is known in some religions as Nirvana...from there you start the cycle over again, and you and your "soul" if you will continue to travel throughout different levels or plains of existence. I don't know where this current life is within that chain, but I do believe that the next one or Nirvana, could also be classified in a similar vein as Heaven or Hell (depending on which direction you go when your consciousness gets there), I simply don't believe that either of these "places" are actual destinations or stopping points.

is this buddhism?
is the act of moving up or down equivalent to being held to account for actions, or lack thereof?

 

[Jr_Bullit]

Originally posted by $tinkle
is this buddhism?
is the act of moving up or down equivalent to being held to account for actions, or lack thereof?

I have to admit that my beliefs come from studying lots of others...I lived with a Zen Buddhist family in Japan for a year, and they had a lot of influence on me.

I spent a lot of time studying what I guess is called "occult" religions as well...and those had a lot of influence

I spent time studying Shinto and other earth-based religions...and those are ones I identify with the easiest.

I've spent most of my time studying christianity in several forms, in an effort to reconcile my own wandering mind with the beliefs of my parents and family.

I've also studied tons of philosophy, and still go back to it on a frequent basis.

I guess I should say that part of what makes me tick is that I finally came to the understanding that it is to each his own. So long as it is not damaging, not angry, not hurtful...it's fine. If you believe that heaven is the final stop in your destination, then so be it...you will be happy there and if you firmly believe that is where you are going, then you will.
To me, there are others like me who's minds can never be satisfied with that, who will always yearn for another life, another chance to learn more...and for those like me, we will live it again and again learning more each time until you move on and up into another plain of consciouness, or down...
To me it's just a cycle, one where you learn best when you pay attention to the harmony that is natural and inherent to life and you work to understand it and move with it. This, is not easy and so far I believe impossible for humans because we outthink ourselves rather than accepting and simply living as do simple creatures.

I also very much dislike the idea of preaching or forcing ideas on others, because to me, it's all about the journey and each person should be enouraged to travel their own path and make their own decisions. I do however have way too much fun discussing and theorizing and challenging when among common company of people who appreciate the same things. I respect Andyman a lot, because I think for him, his journey has led him to Christianity and that is a path he has chosen for himself. But he doesn't preach or force, but does seem to enjoy the theorizing based upon his own understanding of how the world works.

Lol and after that long ramble, I still didn't answer the question of moving up or down...
I think you can make decisions that move you "down" if there is a down, or backwards in your own consciousness if you harm others or move outside the balance of harmony and willfully act to work against a natural code of conduct. Creatures (including humans) are generally built with an inherent and learned code of conduct...we're born with instincts of what is right and what is wrong...sometimes there are those who go against this "code" that is natural. Those who go against, I believe harm themselves by moving outside the understanding of how the world works. They are focused internally, and not externally, and don't see a larger picture. You lack understanding of the world when your sole focus is yourself, rather than how you fit into a much larger world or picture.

 

[Tenchiro]

Wow, you sure have thought about it. Personally I don't have any clue as to what could be waiting for us in the afterlife. But an eternity of anything is bound to be boring.

 

[Jr_Bullit]

Originally posted by Tenchiro
Wow, you sure have thought about it. Personally I don't have any clue as to what could be waiting for us in the afterlife. But an eternity of anything is bound to be boring.

hehe, no choice in the matter really...my parents insisted I at least make educated decisions about my life and think about my questions carefully...never to accept a simple or given answer. But when I started experimenting with other beliefs as a kid, my mother wouldn't hear of it unless I could justify it. I'm not very logical/sequential in my answers to things, but I do think about my own questions to life a lot.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Originally posted by Jr_Bullit
I respect Andyman a lot, because I think for him, his journey has led him to Christianity and that is a path he has chosen for himself. But he doesn't preach or force, but does seem to enjoy the theorizing based upon his own understanding of how the world works.

Awwwwwwww, bless your heart. Thanks for the props.

 

[Jr_Bullit]

Darnit! the conversation stopped...lol...I seem to be the "thread killer" the past few days...

just cuz I'm all peace love and happy doesn't mean the debate should stop!

 

[golgiaparatus]

Originally posted by $tinkle
"decided", or "knows"?

i can see strong & sound arguments for both, but not sure which one is "correct". I s'pose that's what this thread is about.

just please don't bring Calvinists into this. My head will pop.

If god has a PLAN that he made up at the creation of the universe then he both made the plan and also knew he was going to make the plan before he ever made it. Regardless, by this theory, we dont REALLY have free will god's pan has alreay decided how chit is gonna turn out.

Heres an interesting one, a little OT but... lets say you have the best person in the whole world... she has the strongest morals and tries with all her might to help every person she sees because she truly has a beautiful heart and bends over backwards inorder not to hurt/harm anyone even in the smallest way. However, this person has decided that Christianity is far too mythical and unbelevable to accept and she has never had an experience to tell her otherwise... acording to most protistant christian thinkers this person is going to be condemned to hell to burn and suffer for eternity because she didnt "accept JC as her personal savior"... This was in gods divine plan, so he planned for it/knew it was going to happen/let it happen... what a prick eh.

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by golgiaparatus
If god has a PLAN that he made up at the creation of the universe then he both made the plan and also knew he was going to make the plan before he ever made it. Regardless, by this theory, we dont REALLY have free will god's pan has alreay decided how chit is gonna turn out.

Heres an interesting one, a little OT but... lets say you have the best person in the whole world... she has the strongest morals and tries with all her might to help every person she sees because she truly has a beautiful heart and bends over backwards inorder not to hurt/harm anyone even in the smallest way. However, this person has decided that Christianity is far too mythical and unbelevable to accept and she has never had an experience to tell her otherwise... acording to most protistant christian thinkers this person is going to be condemned to hell to burn and suffer for eternity because she didnt "accept JC as her personal savior"... This was in gods divine plan, so he planned for it/knew it was going to happen/let it happen... what a prick eh.

You're making some HUGE assumptions there. First, just cuz G-d has his devine plan, doesn't mean it's ALL encompasing. It doesn't mean that it controls all the players. Sure, he could if he wanted to, but have you ever played a video game in G-d mode? Get's boring, eh?

The other thing is -- an no offense to the Christians -- who says that you HAVE to accept JC as the savoir? And if he is, perhaps you can accept him after you die

 

[Jr_Bullit]

Originally posted by golgiaparatus
If god has a PLAN that he made up at the creation of the universe then he both made the plan and also knew he was going to make the plan before he ever made it. Regardless, by this theory, we dont REALLY have free will god's pan has alreay decided how chit is gonna turn out.

Heres an interesting one, a little OT but... lets say you have the best person in the whole world... she has the strongest morals and tries with all her might to help every person she sees because she truly has a beautiful heart and bends over backwards inorder not to hurt/harm anyone even in the smallest way. However, this person has decided that Christianity is far too mythical and unbelevable to accept and she has never had an experience to tell her otherwise... acording to most protistant christian thinkers this person is going to be condemned to hell to burn and suffer for eternity because she didnt "accept JC as her personal savior"... This was in gods divine plan, so he planned for it/knew it was going to happen/let it happen... what a prick eh.

Ah yes, but this will only happen to that wonderful lady you describe if in fact this is actually the way the world runs...for which there is little "hard" evidence. If she however believes this to be her fate, then perhaps it willb e so. But if she cares not for what this dogma states, then perhaps her own personal beliefs will dictate what happens to her after her life here.

 

[brock]

Originally posted by Jr_Bullit
I respect Andyman a lot, because I think for him, his journey has led him to Christianity and that is a path he has chosen for himself. But he doesn't preach or force, but does seem to enjoy the theorizing based upon his own understanding of how the world works.

I have from the sidelines read just about everything he has ever typed on this board and I agree wholeheartedly with this statement.

I have in my lifetime known very few people of faith who made Christianity such a major part of their life and at the same time remained inoffensive in the eyes of someone like myself who does not follow any religious teachings.

 

[golgiaparatus]

Originally posted by Jr_Bullit
Ah yes, but this will only happen to that wonderful lady you describe if in fact this is actually the way the world runs...for which there is little "hard" evidence. If she however believes this to be her fate, then perhaps it willb e so. But if she cares not for what this dogma states, then perhaps her own personal beliefs will dictate what happens to her after her life here.

Personally I dont buy what I wrote, I was kind of going off of what I have learned about christian beliefs, I was bending it toward an evangelical bias as well, just for the sake of argument.

I truly hope, and have thought many times before that it would be great that if what you believe personally is what happens to your conciousness after life in your current body expires. I can't accept this either though... I have to go back (as always) to the impossibility of an accurate understanding of what the outcome will be. All I know for sure is that I'm either going to find out, or Im not, and currently I have accepted and can deal with that.

What gets me about a lot of religious people is when they are stubborn in their beliefs/have closed their minds and say that they 'KNOW something', because in all reality, they dont know anything at all, no one does and I dont think anyone should say that they do... People that do show much presumptousnesstude .

 

[$tinkle]

Originally posted by Tenchiro
But an eternity of anything is bound to be boring.

uh...you must be a roadie, or a trackrat.

Originally posted by golgiaparatus
...evangelical ...

i hate that word.

i picture folks who get out of church & go to the mall to hand out tracts, or randomly knock on doors to convert the unwashed masses. Folks who i have a lot in common with, but nonetheless make me cringe.

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by $tinkle
uh...you must be a roadie, or a trackrat.i hate that word.

WTF is wrong with being a roadie!? :angry:

 

[$tinkle]

Originally posted by LordOpie
WTF is wrong with being a roadie!? :angry:

when i was a child, i rode like a child

 

[Just Lookin'...]

just like me to turn up late when all the party goers are either drunk or gone home...

okay, this thread, while intelligently pursued (by some) has a few fallacies that i'd like to address.

some of us think that god is essentially a human with great magical powers and deep and mysterious knowledge. we add the adjectives of 'all' and 'ultimate' etc to make this magician seem even bigger and more potent.

we then pretend that we can 'figure him out'.

this is what some theologists call 'small god thinking'.

if god is really GOD, not GOD then i (and many others) postulate that GOD is not just a powerful 'superhero' type human.

a good analogy is a microbe 'looking' at a human and trying to 'understand' it.

now, a man looking at GOD and trying to understand IT is similar.

which is why the whole good/vs/evil thing is such barking madness.

in the first place - there is no definition of either that can wholly encompass every example - each of those extremes can only be 'judged' in by those who are observing (and by observing - changing)

however, just for the sake of argument, let's say there is measurable and quantifiable examples of good and evil in the world.

now, another small thought rotates around the idea of 'future knowledge'. I have issues with this from both the 'yes' and 'no' sides. i'll start with the 'no' vote: if there is anything in all of existence that knows the future, then the future is done. it's already over. that means that every action in the future is fore-ordained and already decided upon.

in that case, there's a problem with thinking that you have 'options' and that you can, in fact, 'change your mind'.

there can't be any random actions because they're already completed - we just haven't passed through enough time to get there yet.

this is a good description of 'fate' and 'destiny' etc. which means there is no free will. there never was and there never will be.

qed: i think - in fact i strongly believe this is impossible. flat out. if there is a GOD, then this entity does not 'know' the future because it doesn't exist.

[disclaimer] persecuting peoples opinions and beliefs based on passages in the bible is common, but ultimately stupid. in the first place, the bible was written by humans, interpreted by other humans, and translated by some more humans, and so on. i think we can agree that it is somewhat 'flawed'.

so please don't bash me because something i say is contrary to the bible. i'm not a bible scholar, anyway.[/disclaimer]

now, according to the old testament, GOD created man in 'his own image'. well, the concept of 'image' is an 'interpretation' of another object. so, taking the old testament at its' word, GOD made mankind the way GOD wanted it to look, think, act. kinda the way an artist does a self portrait.

back to the whole evil thing. and free will. while i believe in the latter, the former is purely subjective and can't be quantified.

why is there suffering in the world? because many many people have not learned the lessons that life on earth is teaching us.

look at what religious intolerance has done for the world. how much misery do we have to suffer before we'll learn that lesson? obviously, humanity has a huge tolerance for misery because it seems easier to create and suffer from it than to learn not to do either.

people keep saying if GOD is perfect, how can IT have put imperfections into the world?

if man is imperfect, then GOD is imperfect? wtf??

where does anyone (anyone important in the scheme of things, that is) say that humanity was supposed to be perfect?

hell, heaven, etc: primitive human fantasy. it makes it easier for us to live in the world, but come on, really. we need to come up with something more believable.

 

[Tenchiro]

Originally posted by Jr_Bullit
hehe, no choice in the matter really...my parents insisted I at least make educated decisions about my life and think about my questions carefully...never to accept a simple or given answer. But when I started experimenting with other beliefs as a kid, my mother wouldn't hear of it unless I could justify it. I'm not very logical/sequential in my answers to things, but I do think about my own questions to life a lot.

My problem is that there are so many onflicting religions that all insist they are the "right" one, it leads me to beleive that each one is just as silly as the next and none are probably right. Just scared people trying to make sense of something that can never really be known.

But I am open minded enough to think that their might be something, even though I kind of doubt it.

 

[Tenchiro]

Originally posted by $tinkle
uh...you must be a roadie, or a trackrat.i hate that word.

Pfft, asphalt sucks.

 

[Tenchiro]

Originally posted by Just Lookin'...
...

Personally, I think it was man that created god in his image, and not the other way around. Therefor it is not so presumptous to try and under stand the idea of god.

 

[Just Lookin'...]

well, if you're going to be atheistic about it...

sure. man has always created the gods.

duh.

but that wasn't the topic of discussion.