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French Hostages Urge End to Head Scarf Ban

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
French Hostages Urge End to Head Scarf Ban
Associated Press | Tue Aug 31 | ELAINE GANLEY

PARIS - The French government prepared for crisis talks Tuesday to save the lives of two journalists held hostage in Iraq, while aides to rebel cleric Muqtada al-Sadr called for the release of the reporters as a deadline set by their kidnappers neared.

Christian Chesnot and Georges Malbrunot were shown on a video released by Al-Jazeera television late Monday pleading with President Jacques Chirac to save their lives by giving in to militants' demands to rescind a ban on head scarves in French schools.

France has ruled out lifting the ban, and Muslim leaders in France and abroad have criticized the kidnapping of the journalists.

"We believe such acts defame Islam and Muslims in general," Ali al-Yasiri, an al-Sadr representative in Baghdad, said Tuesday. "To fight in a battlefield is OK, but to kill a civilian or journalist is blasphemy."

"I call upon the kidnappers to immediately release the French journalists," another al-Sadr official, Sheikh Youssef Al-Nassiri, told Al-Jazeera.

Al-Sadr commands strong support among poor Iraqi Shiites and helped broker the Aug. 22 release of U.S. journalist Micah Garen after nine days in the hands of Shiite militiamen. But al-Sadr has little influence with Sunni Muslims, and the group that has said it seized the French reporters, "The Islamic Army of Iraq," is believed to be a Sunni group.

The European Parliament called for the immediate release of the two Frenchmen and more than 160 EU lawmakers had signed a petition by Tuesday morning demanding their freedom.

"I call on the kidnappers to release their hostages," EU assembly President Josep Borrell said in a statement. "Whatever its origin, terrorism has but one goal; to kill freedom of expression and thought. Democrats around the world have to fight this."

In a video broadcast Saturday, the group gave the French government 48 hours to overturn the ban, but mentioned no threat against the men's lives. A militant group with a similar name was believed to have killed an Italian freelance journalist last week after Italy's government rejected a demand that it withdraw its 3,000 soldiers in Iraq.

Al-Jazeera on Monday said the group holding the two Frenchmen had extended its deadline by 24 hours, to late Tuesday.

In Monday's video, the two unshaven men, missing since Aug. 19, sat together in front of a gray, mud wall with a small window above them.

"I appeal to the French people to go to the streets ... because our lives are threatened," journalist Georges Malbrunot said in English on the video. Speaking in French, fellow hostage Christian Chesnot called on Chirac and his government to drop the ban, according to an Al-Jazeera newsreader, who interpreted his remarks into Arabic.

Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin called an emergency meeting of his top ministers for late Tuesday morning, as Foreign Minister Michel Barnier began the second day of emergency diplomacy in the Middle East to free the journalists.

"Every tool of the State is mobilized today," Culture and Communications Minister Renaud Donnedieu de Vabres told LCI television before the meeting started. "The government, like the French people, is mobilized, united and concerned."

While the law bans all "conspicuous" religious apparel, such as Jewish skullcaps and large Christian crosses, it is aimed at Muslim head scarves in public schools. Many French fear their secular nation, which has the biggest Islamic population in western Europe with 5 million Muslims, is under threat from a rising tide of Islamic fundamentalism.


The kidnappers called the ban "an aggression on the Islamic religion and personal freedoms." But Muslim leaders at home and abroad rallied around France with statements of support and calls for the two reporters to be let go.

The measure's passage in March triggered protests by Muslims, as well as turban-wearing Sikhs, around the world, who argued it is discriminatory.

But Muslim activists in the Middle East appealed to the hostage-takers Monday and offered praise for France's anti-war stance on Iraq.

"Because of France's distinguished position in rejecting the Anglo-American occupation of Iraq, we appeal to the people who kidnapped the journalists to spare their lives," said the Islamic Action Front, Jordan's largest opposition group.

French Foreign Minister Barnier was in Jordan on Tuesday after meetings in Cairo, Egypt on Monday with Egyptian officials and the secretary-general of the Arab League, Amr Moussa.
 

Toshi

butthole powerwashing evangelist
Oct 23, 2001
40,224
9,112
the headscarf ban does seem like a supremely stupid piece of legislation.
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,022
3
Denver
Toshi said:
the headscarf ban does seem like a supremely stupid piece of legislation.
ironically, jews aren't allowed to wear their head-wear either.

And yet, I don't recall jews taking hostages. I'm sure I'm wrong tho.
 

Slugman

Frankenbike
Apr 29, 2004
4,024
0
Miami, FL
Wow.... the french actually tooka stand on something!

Lets see how long this last.

They'll probably end up leaving France to avoid any confrontation...
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
290
VT
LordOpie said:
ironically, jews aren't allowed to wear their head-wear either.

And yet, I don't recall jews taking hostages. I'm sure I'm wrong tho.
The legislation is fair:

No religious items are allowed - no head scarfs for muslims, no caps for jews, no crosses on necklaces for Christians.

Separation of church and state is a good thing...
 

Skookum

bikey's is cool
Jul 26, 2002
10,184
0
in a bear cave
LordOpie said:
thanks, it's scientifically proven to damper all cultish religions (except mormonism for some really weird reason nobody can figure out). it absorbs religion particals that collect in the stomach and colon as it works it's way healing you while also supplementing your diet in a wholesome and nutricious way.
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,022
3
Denver
syadasti said:
The legislation is fair:

No religious items are allowed - no head scarfs for muslims, no caps for jews, no crosses on necklaces for Christians.

Separation of church and state is a good thing...
I didn't say it wasn't fair, just commented that no other groups are taking even remotely as drastic measures.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
56,400
22,481
Sleazattle
LordOpie said:
I didn't say it wasn't fair, just commented that no other groups are taking even remotely as drastic measures.
I don't think it is very fair to say that the kidnappers represent any group other than themselves. Even that freak Al-Sadr asked them to be released. Kidnapping is just the latest fad in trendy Iraq.
 

Toshi

butthole powerwashing evangelist
Oct 23, 2001
40,224
9,112
LordOpie said:
I didn't say it wasn't fair, just commented that no other groups are taking even remotely as drastic measures.
i agree that kidnapping + murder is "drastic" and that no other groups are doing so. however the legislation clearly seems aimed at muslims. i'd highly doubt whether christians who wear crucifixes on necklaces OUTSIDE of their shirts or fundamentalist jews who don't cut the four corners and wear yarmulkes constantly come close to the number of muslim women who always wear the hijab...
 

LeeOz

Monkey
Aug 20, 2003
111
0
NYC
Slugman said:
Wow.... the french actually tooka stand on something!

Lets see how long this last.

They'll probably end up leaving France to avoid any confrontation...
woa you seem to have a pretty good knowledge of France. you know we have a shortage of teachers in NYC, you could teach kids history.
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,022
3
Denver
Toshi said:
i agree that kidnapping + murder is "drastic" and that no other groups are doing so. however the legislation clearly seems aimed at muslims. i'd highly doubt whether christians who wear crucifixes on necklaces OUTSIDE of their shirts or fundamentalist jews who don't cut the four corners and wear yarmulkes constantly come close to the number of muslim women who always wear the hijab...
it's not the number affected, it's the consistency of policy execution.
 

Slugman

Frankenbike
Apr 29, 2004
4,024
0
Miami, FL
LeeOz said:
woa you seem to have a pretty good knowledge of France. you know we have a shortage of teachers in NYC, you could teach kids history.
You're right... I'm sorry - they'll just surrender.
 

Toshi

butthole powerwashing evangelist
Oct 23, 2001
40,224
9,112
LordOpie said:
it's not the number affected, it's the consistency of policy execution.
the numbers affected do matter, tho, because they make the legislation seem targeted/aimed/[insert synonym here] at muslims, and that in turn is why these kidnappers are pissed off.
 

LeeOz

Monkey
Aug 20, 2003
111
0
NYC
Slugman said:
You're right... I'm sorry - they'll just surrender.
Well unless you're posting from Iraq or Afghanistan, you're just another big mouth couch warrior talking sh!t

Peeps like you are funny... go ride
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,022
3
Denver
Toshi said:
the numbers affected do matter, tho, because they make the legislation seem targeted/aimed/[insert synonym here] at muslims, and that in turn is why these kidnappers are pissed off.
ah, well, as long as they have a good reason then, cool.
 

Ciaran

Fear my banana
Apr 5, 2004
9,841
19
So Cal
Toshi said:
i agree that kidnapping + murder is "drastic" and that no other groups are doing so.
They are not doing so right now. Most religious groups have been just as violent at some point in their history. (Remember the crusades? The Inquisition? Jewish persecution of early Christians.) I do agree that there really are no other mainstream religious groups today that seem to be as violent and as extreme as Islam is. Capitalism may be the answer. Nothing gets people away from religion faster then bright shiny objects and lot's of stuff.

I do agree that seperation of church and state is a very cery good thing, but I think France is wrong on this one. Telling (forcing) people what to do never works out well.
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
Toshi said:
the numbers affected do matter, tho, because they make the legislation seem targeted/aimed/[insert synonym here] at muslims, and that in turn is why these kidnappers are pissed off.

So if that ligitimizes it then why not use it as a tool to change laws that one opposes in the US..?
 

Ciaran

Fear my banana
Apr 5, 2004
9,841
19
So Cal
LeeOz said:
Well unless you're posting from Iraq or Afghanistan, you're just another big mouth couch warrior talking sh!t

Peeps like you are funny... go ride

This seems to be needling you... are you french, perchance?
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,022
3
Denver
Ciaran said:
Most religious groups have been just as violent at some point in their history. (Remember the crusades? The Inquisition? Jewish persecution of early Christians.) I do agree that there really are no other mainstream religious groups today that seem to be as violent and as extreme as Islam is.
well, as long as we're keeping score, then GO ISLAM!

K - I - D - N - A - P - P - E - R - S... Jets Jets Jets!
 

Slugman

Frankenbike
Apr 29, 2004
4,024
0
Miami, FL
LeeOz said:
Well unless you're posting from Iraq or Afghanistan, you're just another big mouth couch warrior talking sh!t

Peeps like you are funny... go ride
Hmmm... which French divisions are in Iraq and Afganistan?




Chill man... recognize jokes when they happen. :rolleyes:
 

Toshi

butthole powerwashing evangelist
Oct 23, 2001
40,224
9,112
Ciaran said:
I do agree that seperation of church and state is a very cery good thing, but I think France is wrong on this one. Telling (forcing) people what to do never works out well.
i'm a die hard atheist, and also think that separation of church and state is good. two points tho: a) france is not america (does their constitution/bill of rights have a similar clause?); b) i think separation of church and state has been interpreted to mean that the govt in question will not force any particular religion on the people (have a state religion). it doesn't mean that they can or should force non-observance, which this headscarf/headwear :rolleyes: ban amounts to.
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
290
VT
Toshi said:
i'm a die hard atheist, and also think that separation of church and state is good. two points tho: a) france is not america (does their constitution/bill of rights have a similar clause?); b) i think separation of church and state has been interpreted to mean that the govt in question will not force any particular religion on the people (have a state religion). it doesn't mean that they can or should force non-observance, which this headscarf/headwear :rolleyes: ban amounts to.
Thats true, but some areas interpret the laws differently and allowing public expression causes the law to float in different directions.

In the US - Southern State had the 10 Commandments at the court house, Xmas tree or minorah(sp?) on city property, kids getting in trouble for not saying the pledge cause of under god etc...

The most popular religion tends to find its way into government sponsored areas even though the law is there - if its banned all together in public this wouldn't happen...
 

LeeOz

Monkey
Aug 20, 2003
111
0
NYC
Ciaran: yes I am... donno if it's a chance or not. As long as I have my Evil, I could be an Eskimo I wouldn't care.

Slugman: my bad then; just that those jokes get annoying after a while.


And please let's not be hypocrit about Iraq, a ****load of countries was doing business with Iraq before (60's-later 80's) they invaded Koweit. Some had bigger deals than others (france, germany, USSR) but does that really matter. If you were selling technology or goods to Iraq, no matter for how much $$$, u were still dealing with a fu**ed up regime. No one was crying about mass graves and the rights of people there at the time.

Now 9/11 happened (and don't give me **** about it, I was 7 blocks away from the WTC when that happened) and saddam was the devil himself. Man some peeps need to be shown the pics of Rumsfeld's trip in baghdad when he met with saddam in the 80's. Also the WMD show, the best soap opera ever on TV.

JMO, wich doesn't mean anything to anyone but to me
 

LeeOz

Monkey
Aug 20, 2003
111
0
NYC
Slugman said:
Hmmm... which French divisions are in Iraq and Afganistan?QUOTE]



Firstable, there's French Special Forces units in Afghanistan right now working with US SF.

"Furthermore, it is now confirmed that French Special Forces are in action in Afghanistan alongside their U.S. and allied comrades. French Special Forces were reported as fighting al Qaeda forces as part of a multinational effort in the Shahikot mountain range near Gardez" (Link)

check your sources before posting...

French Division Daguet was in Iraq in 1991 when the first invasion was approved by the UN.
 

dante

Unabomber
Feb 13, 2004
8,807
9
looking for classic NE singletrack
LeeOz said:
Slugman said:
Hmmm... which French divisions are in Iraq and Afganistan?QUOTE]

French Division Daguet was in Iraq in 1991 when the first invasion was approved by the UN.
Hey Lee, think about it this way... the whole "anti-french" thing really is only kept up by redneck conservative types, who refuse to believe that the french might've actually had a REASON to think that WMD didn't exist. French jokes are funny, till you stop and think that France isn't involved in a quagmire in Iraq with 1000 dead soldiers and 7000 wounded in action. Maybe if we'd listened to them instead of to Cheney's hand-drawn "evidence" of WMD trucks, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in now. Hard to fault them for asking for more evidence when I would've done the exact same thing... :think:
 

LeeOz

Monkey
Aug 20, 2003
111
0
NYC
dante: thanks for your post man

actually french jokes might have been funny if it was coming from people that know what they talking about or have some knowledge about french history.

There's 2 notions that people tend to mix up:

1) that we surrender cuz we wanted the germans to invade our country (yea right :rolleyes: ). Of course everyone likes to be invaded... and german is such a nice sounding language :)

2) that a large part of the population was trying to work something out and sympathise with the nazis when they saw that the situation was hopeless in order to save their asses. I can hate them for their actions but I can't judge them, I don't know what I would have done... Do you?

(I'm not even talking about french right-wing bastards that wanted to have a regime based on the nazi one, but just regular people)

That whole french surrender thing is like arabs telling iraqis that they're cowards because they surrendered to an invading force 50 times stronger than them.
40.000 french people died during those 5 years. A LOT of resistants were tortured and killed (youngest were 12-13). So don't give me your bull**** when your hardest struggle in life is to do a "180".

But anyway who cares... let's enjoy 18 years old suckas talking about bravery in combat and honor.