[Jr_Bullit]

we, as citizens, care about a war between nations, an adult war - when there's this kind of war happening in neighborhoods Why are we focusing so much bloody attention on the rest of the world, and leaving problems like this to underfunded, too busy police departments....At least here you can look online and get an "idea" of where they live

Serial paedophile flung boy's body down rubbish chute

By Jacqueline McGhie and Lucy Panton

A SERIAL paedophile sexually abused an eight-year-old boy before murdering him—then dumping his body down a garbage chute.

The pervert, Stuart Leggate, had THREE previous child sex convictions before he lured eight-year-old Mark Cummings into his flat and strangled him with his own jogging bottoms.

He was on the sex offenders' register yet nobody warned his victim's mother of the monster living in their tower block.

In a chilling confession Leggate told police: "The old me came back yesterday." He described strangling little Mark, adding: "It was like I actually heard myself saying, ‘You let the last one go, I'm not letting this one go'. I continued until he was dead."

Marching

Today, as 28-year-old Leggate began a life jail sentence for the murder, Mark's mum Margaret Ann called for parents to be told if their child is at risk from a dangerous pervert.

The News of the World is campaigning for a Sarah's Law giving parents the right to controlled access to information from police about high-risk predatory paedophiles living in their area

Margaret Ann said: "The whole system needs to be overhauled. This cannot be allowed to happen again. We have a right to know if perverts are living next door. There needs to be much tougher sentences.

"I've seen the hard work Sara Payne has done over the years and fully support the changes she's been fighting for. Hopefully, we can come together to change the system that failed us so badly."

Next week the 29-year-old mum plans to lead a protest march through the streets of her Glasgow home town to demand changes in the law which failed her son.

But we can reveal that Leggate is not the only pervert living in the five tower blocks which make up the Charles Street estate in Royston, Glasgow. EIGHT more child sex offenders lurk there.

Police broke the news to alarmed residents when they met with them after Mark's murder.

But cops admitted their records were not up to date and asked families to let them know where the beasts live.

Neighbour Mary Chambers, 35, said: "The police actually asked US if we knew how many perverts are in the area. Surely it's not down to us. On the one hand we're told we shouldn't have access to a sex offenders register and on the other we're asked to monitor sex offenders in our area.

"If they need our help keeping track of these animals, we have a right to know where police THINK they are?"

Last night a social worker expressed concern at the placing of eight paedophiles in five tower blocks. She said: "Normally the idea is to keep sex offenders apart, preventing them from making links with each other."

But we can also reveal that at least THIRTY paedophiles have been housed in an identical high-rise scheme in the city's Scotstoun area. Again residents have no clue that sex offenders have been dumped among them.

Anyone convicted of sex crimes is placed on the sex offenders register and must tell police where they are living. But their details normally aren't passed to officers at street level.

Unfair

Strathclyde police have ordered an immediate review of how they deal with perverts on their patch. Divisional commanders are expected to be urged to make sure patrolling officers know where sex maniacs like Leggate live.

A police source said: "The fact is that officers don't know exactly how many more such monsters are living in these areas.

"There are five in one of the blocks at Kingston Court, Scotstoun, although some may have decided to move for their own safety. Until recently there were another 23 rehoused in that area.

"It's not fair to keep families in the dark about who lives among them."

Last night Royston's MSP, Paul Martin, said: "We need to question the way in which convicted paedophiles are placed in high-rise estates simply because there happens to be cheap accommodation there.

"At the moment I'm in listening mode when it comes to pushing for a Scots Sarah's Law.

‘Anything that improves the current situation has to be considered so that more families don't have to go through this hell."

Leggate was released in September 1999 after serving two years of a four-year sentence for assaulting boys aged between three and ten. His activities were supposed to be monitored by police and social services.

But Chief Superintendent Kevin Smith, of Strathclyde police, said: "We cannot watch these people 24 hours a day. It would appear that it was an opportunity exploited within a very few minutes.

"At the end of the day the legislation is not about constant surveillance but about minimising the risk."

One tower block resident joining next week's protest march said: "The police told us a Sarah's Law wouldn't have helped, arguing it would drive these people underground. But we think it's a good starting point."

Agony

Mark's mum and her family had to relive the agony of his murder again this week as Leggate's confession was heard in court.

Margaret Ann recalled looking into the eyes of her son's killer in court to see if he felt remorse.

"There was nothing," she said, "He looked as if he didn't care. He's just not human at all."

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/story_pages/news/news4.shtml

 

[ncrider]

I feel your compasion about solving domestic problems. However, we must not forget that we are now living in a global economy. Problems abroad if gone unchecked, which may not seem to directly impact you, can have the amazing ability to ruin everybodies standard of living. So there's always more than one side to every story.

 

[Jr_Bullit]

This I do know darlin, I had high hopes of working for the US Foreign Service, till I interned there for a good period of time. My passion remains in International Politics, but there does often seems to be a lack of focus on domestic issues that, if addressed, might bring the sloth-like american populace out of their coma and back into a production mode that benefits more than simply our internal economy.

 

[Damn True]

"He was on the sex offenders' register yet nobody warned his victim's mother of the monster living in their tower block"

That kinda thing fries me.
IMO animals like that should'nt leave prisons unless its in a pine box.

 

[ncrider]

Why are we focusing so much bloody attention on the rest of the world,

coulda fooled me sweet heart.

What do you mean by "sloth-like America populace"? And what coma?
Lasted I checked America is the most productive country in the world. Producing almost twice as much as the closest compition (China).
Can we be more productive by changing certain domestic policy? Absolutly, but I don't think were any where near a coma.

 

[Jr_Bullit]

To backpedal quickly - let's just say I did what I do best and brought three separate issues into one conversation.
1) I do find the vast majority of the american populace to be slothlike - fat, obese, lazy, unwilling to work hard to get ahead, definitely willing to exploit any systems put into place to help those less fortunate, and more than willing to continue expanding these "benefits" or social improvement schemes to continue to support the lazy.
2) I do find the vast majority of the american populace to be in a coma - asleep about issues going on just around the corner. We seem to focus on an international world that will affect each individual directly in a very small amount, but ignore the issues that do affect our neighborhoods, our communities, and our families directly (take the our families bit with a grain of salt - my only dependent is a cat).

I find it disgusting that our next president (be it the incumbant or the new guy) will be elected based upon "perceived" family values, his position on how best to continue a war that takes more people away from our borders, and what happened 30 years ago in a previous war.

I find articles like this, about child abuse, about monsters living down the street, even articles about animal abuse, and all we seem to do is react to the problem - rather than committing to finding a national solution, it's left to the local community to "come up with something" in a day and age when most people have no idea who's running for city council, or don't care about what their mayor or governer (unless it's a movie star) might be able to do for them locally. We focus on a president, but not on our direct state representatives who represent our states' needs for the country.

We ignore that our personal freedoms are slowly being pissed away, we ignore that the average person is viewed as little more than cattle to feed on by the few wealthy and powerful, and instead focus on an unseen threat across the ocean out of fear it might just come and materialize as the bogeyman under our beds - when there are real, tangible, accessible monsters in our own communities.

Sorry for rambling, and for not posting statistics on production and such - I'll see what I can dredge up when I get home.

 

[zod]

IMO animals like that should'nt leave prisons unless its in a pine box.

 

[ncrider]

nicely cleared up jr_bullit. I guess your sloath/cattle view of the vast majority is very much like my cattle/sheep view of the majority.

 

[Andyman_1970]

To backpedal quickly - let's just say I did what I do best and brought three separate issues into one conversation.
1) I do find the vast majority of the american populace to be slothlike - fat, obese, lazy, unwilling to work hard to get ahead, definitely willing to exploit any systems put into place to help those less fortunate, and more than willing to continue expanding these "benefits" or social improvement schemes to continue to support the lazy.

2) I do find the vast majority of the american populace to be in a coma - asleep about issues going on just around the corner. We seem to focus on an international world that will affect each individual directly in a very small amount, but ignore the issues that do affect our neighborhoods, our communities, and our families directly (take the our families bit with a grain of salt - my only dependent is a cat).

While I think when anyone says "the vast majority" tends to be a generalization, I would agree with your general idea.

The deal is, these problems that you outline, are IMO a direct result of your TV/Microwave culture that we have developled over the last 20-30ish years. The whole concept of delayed gratification has been thrown out the window, and we as a culture are free to unduldge to excess whatever desire we wish, be it sex, food, drink, cars, SUV's..........you name it. And while these things are not fundamentally "bad" any of these in excess can be harmful to a culture.

Anyway, the problems you outline are IMO more a cultural issue and less a government, as from what I have seen government tends to have less of an influence on culture (at least ours) than say TV/Internet/movies.

 

[BurlyShirley]

People just want their piece of the pie. Nothing more in most cases. The majority of the people I know are willing to work for a living, and all they want to do is pay their bills and raise their kids as they see fit. Go to Florida on vacation, drive a nice car and own a house. Does that make them sheep because they're not revolutionaries? Does it make them sheep because they value tradition?

What do you guys want out of people?

 

[Andyman_1970]

What do you guys want out of people?

I agree.............what makes someone not a sheep/cow?

 

[DRB]

I agree.............what makes someone not a sheep/cow?

Agreeing with them maybe?

 

[Andyman_1970]

1) I do find the vast majority of the american populace to be slothlike - fat, obese, lazy, unwilling to work hard to get ahead, definitely willing to exploit any systems put into place to help those less fortunate, and more than willing to continue expanding these "benefits" or social improvement schemes to continue to support the lazy.

2) I do find the vast majority of the american populace to be in a coma - asleep about issues going on just around the corner.

Jr B, with all due respect, you realize this sounds awfully "elitist" (at least implied in your text)and "judgemental" (pretty blatant in your text)..............the same traits people critisize Christians for..............

 

[Jr_Bullit]

People just want their piece of the pie. Nothing more in most cases. The majority of the people I know are willing to work for a living, and all they want to do is pay their bills and raise their kids as they see fit. Go to Florida on vacation, drive a nice car and own a house. Does that make them sheep because they're not revolutionaries? Does it make them sheep because they value tradition?

What do you guys want out of people?

If that's everything, then it's cool - but to spout whatever bs you're fed turns you into a sheep. The ability to think for yourself, be satisfied with yourself, respect your body, your family, your community, and to participate in your community in some productive manner. The world doesn't need everyone to be a revolutionary - the world needs people who are capable of thinking for themselves.

Most tend to come to some conclusion in their younger years and then hold onto it desperately throughout their lives and deny anything that might contradict, challenge, or shake their world view.

If people sat back and said - I am happy with my life, all I want is this house, this family, my debts, my job and that's it...then great. They're still ship, but they're satisfied sheep. Are all those people you describe satisfied with their life? Or do they bitch and moan that they don't have enough - no one respects them, those darned liberals keep challenging their way of life..etc etc.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Agreeing with them maybe?

With who? The sheep/cows? That's pretty circular reasoning, who decides who's a sheep or a cow?

 

[Jr_Bullit]

Jr B, with all due respect, you realize this sounds awfully "elitist" (at least implied in your text)and "judgemental" (pretty blatant in your text)..............the same traits people critisize Christians for..............

You're quite right. I don't feel like apologizing for it right now though .

 

[Jr_Bullit]

While I think when anyone says "the vast majority" tends to be a generalization, I would agree with your general idea.

The deal is, these problems that you outline, are IMO a direct result of your TV/Microwave culture that we have developled over the last 20-30ish years. The whole concept of delayed gratification has been thrown out the window, and we as a culture are free to unduldge to excess whatever desire we wish, be it sex, food, drink, cars, SUV's..........you name it. And while these things are not fundamentally "bad" any of these in excess can be harmful to a culture.

Anyway, the problems you outline are IMO more a cultural issue and less a government, as from what I have seen government tends to have less of an influence on culture (at least ours) than say TV/Internet/movies.

We're in complete agreement - it's a choice we all make, does TV/microwave culture benefit me, or would I be better off spending 10 minutes more a day reading different new sources, picking up a book that might share some insight, and cooking my own dinner.

My parents and I are totally at odds on this - they're all about the "american pie", the white house, the enormous debts, the materialism, etc. I can't say I'm not like this, but I don't have TV, and I have nothing frozen in my freezer that could become a meal in a short amount of time.

It IS cultural - but perhaps its time our culture began evolving again - or devolving - into an enjoyment/appreciation for the outdoors vs. the nature channel, into the appreciation of good written words - rather than TV, into the appreciation of good, healthy, home cooked food, rather than the latest diet fad or microwaveable instant meals. Maybe slowing things down is a better answer than constantly coming up with "improvements' that will "give us more convenience".

Ya ya - liberal hippy - I have no doubt I'm labeled as such on a regular basis.

 

[Andyman_1970]

You're quite right. I don't feel like apologizing for it right now though .

No prob, I'll tuck this one away the next time you make a comment about "judgemental" Christians..................which you don't do very often, so I might have to hold on to it for a while............

 

[Jr_Bullit]

Most people judge others in some form or fashion. Makes it easier to get through life if we can all just package everyone into neat little boxes and categorize them as X or Y.

I don't deny that I judge people all the time - some of my "gut reactions" are embarrasingly not PC, but maybe being PC is a bigger example of those carefully trying to tell the world "I don't judge you...no really, I don't, so instead I'm going to put a pretty picture on things and pretend otherwise". No one wants to be a bad guy, and everyone apologizes for the parts of them that others judge as bad.

I am me - I judge those I feel don't think for themselves, those who follow the "norm", those who choose not to challenge themselves. Elitist? probably. Do I care? Not really. I live my life by the best example I can - for others my idea of what's right is horrible, for me, it works.

 

[Andyman_1970]

I am me - I judge those I feel don't think for themselves, those who follow the "norm", those who choose not to challenge themselves. Elitist? probably. Do I care? Not really. I live my life by the best example I can - for others my idea of what's right is horrible, for me, it works.

Just to clarify, isn't this contrary to the (for lack of a better word) Liberal philosophy of equality? Dr. King says:

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal." I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slaveowners will be able to sit down together at a table of brotherhood. I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a desert state, sweltering with the heat of injustice and oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice. I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

First, IMO any sort of "elitism" flies in the face of equality (at least on the philisophical level), the idea that "I'm more thoughtful/intellegent(implied)/educated on the issue" or whatever implies you're somehow better.

Second, instead of skin color replace with, "those who don't think for themselves" or "those who watch to much TV" or "those who don't excersize". How do you know they don't think for themselves? Have you asked all those you label as fat, slothful, lazy..........the cows/sheep? Your judgement of them is stemming from outward appearances rather than who these people really are........................isn't that called prejudice?

 

[pnj]

there are 34 registered level two and three sex offenders living in my zip code.

 

[DRB]

With who? The sheep/cows? That's pretty circular reasoning, who decides who's a sheep or a cow?

Isn't that the real problem? You know, that we have folks who think they get to decide who the sheep/cows are. OR is that everyone gets to decide who the sheep/cow is but the definition is different depending on who is making the decision.

 

[s1ngletrack]

we, as citizens, care about a war between nations, an adult war - when there's this kind of war happening in neighborhoods Why are we focusing so much bloody attention on the rest of the world, and leaving problems like this to underfunded, too busy police departments....At least here you can look online and get an "idea" of where they live

Serial paedophile flung boy's body down rubbish chute

By Jacqueline McGhie and Lucy Panton

A SERIAL paedophile sexually abused an eight-year-old boy before murdering him—then dumping his body down a garbage chute.

The pervert, Stuart Leggate, had THREE previous child sex convictions before he lured eight-year-old Mark Cummings into his flat and strangled him with his own jogging bottoms.

He was on the sex offenders' register yet nobody warned his victim's mother of the monster living in their tower block.

In a chilling confession Leggate told police: "The old me came back yesterday." He described strangling little Mark, adding: "It was like I actually heard myself saying, ‘You let the last one go, I'm not letting this one go'. I continued until he was dead."

Marching

Today, as 28-year-old Leggate began a life jail sentence for the murder, Mark's mum Margaret Ann called for parents to be told if their child is at risk from a dangerous pervert.

The News of the World is campaigning for a Sarah's Law giving parents the right to controlled access to information from police about high-risk predatory paedophiles living in their area

Margaret Ann said: "The whole system needs to be overhauled. This cannot be allowed to happen again. We have a right to know if perverts are living next door. There needs to be much tougher sentences.

"I've seen the hard work Sara Payne has done over the years and fully support the changes she's been fighting for. Hopefully, we can come together to change the system that failed us so badly."

Next week the 29-year-old mum plans to lead a protest march through the streets of her Glasgow home town to demand changes in the law which failed her son.

But we can reveal that Leggate is not the only pervert living in the five tower blocks which make up the Charles Street estate in Royston, Glasgow. EIGHT more child sex offenders lurk there.

Police broke the news to alarmed residents when they met with them after Mark's murder.

But cops admitted their records were not up to date and asked families to let them know where the beasts live.

Neighbour Mary Chambers, 35, said: "The police actually asked US if we knew how many perverts are in the area. Surely it's not down to us. On the one hand we're told we shouldn't have access to a sex offenders register and on the other we're asked to monitor sex offenders in our area.

"If they need our help keeping track of these animals, we have a right to know where police THINK they are?"

Last night a social worker expressed concern at the placing of eight paedophiles in five tower blocks. She said: "Normally the idea is to keep sex offenders apart, preventing them from making links with each other."

But we can also reveal that at least THIRTY paedophiles have been housed in an identical high-rise scheme in the city's Scotstoun area. Again residents have no clue that sex offenders have been dumped among them.

Anyone convicted of sex crimes is placed on the sex offenders register and must tell police where they are living. But their details normally aren't passed to officers at street level.

Unfair

Strathclyde police have ordered an immediate review of how they deal with perverts on their patch. Divisional commanders are expected to be urged to make sure patrolling officers know where sex maniacs like Leggate live.

A police source said: "The fact is that officers don't know exactly how many more such monsters are living in these areas.

"There are five in one of the blocks at Kingston Court, Scotstoun, although some may have decided to move for their own safety. Until recently there were another 23 rehoused in that area.

"It's not fair to keep families in the dark about who lives among them."

Last night Royston's MSP, Paul Martin, said: "We need to question the way in which convicted paedophiles are placed in high-rise estates simply because there happens to be cheap accommodation there.

"At the moment I'm in listening mode when it comes to pushing for a Scots Sarah's Law.

‘Anything that improves the current situation has to be considered so that more families don't have to go through this hell."

Leggate was released in September 1999 after serving two years of a four-year sentence for assaulting boys aged between three and ten. His activities were supposed to be monitored by police and social services.

But Chief Superintendent Kevin Smith, of Strathclyde police, said: "We cannot watch these people 24 hours a day. It would appear that it was an opportunity exploited within a very few minutes.

"At the end of the day the legislation is not about constant surveillance but about minimising the risk."

One tower block resident joining next week's protest march said: "The police told us a Sarah's Law wouldn't have helped, arguing it would drive these people underground. But we think it's a good starting point."

Agony

Mark's mum and her family had to relive the agony of his murder again this week as Leggate's confession was heard in court.

Margaret Ann recalled looking into the eyes of her son's killer in court to see if he felt remorse.

"There was nothing," she said, "He looked as if he didn't care. He's just not human at all."

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/story_pages/news/news4.shtml

I couldn't read that beyond the second sentence - if someone did that to my 7 year old I swear to f***ing God they they would never find the sack of sh1t - cause I would fvcking grind him into a fine paste and feed him to my dogs. WTF is wrong with our world (more specifically, our country) - when we are locking people away for selling a drug that is less destructive than the alcohol displayed so prominently on our t.v.s and magazines. Worthless sh1tbags like this are allowed to prey on children so that we can keep Johnny Scofflaw locked away for selling a few pounds of pot. I hope that worthless pile of sh1t is brutally gang-raped and left to die slowly bleeding to death on a concrete prison floor

 

[Jr_Bullit]

Just to clarify, isn't this contrary to the (for lack of a better word) Liberal philosophy of equality? Dr. King says:



First, IMO any sort of "elitism" flies in the face of equality (at least on the philisophical level), the idea that "I'm more thoughtful/intellegent(implied)/educated on the issue" or whatever implies you're somehow better.

Second, instead of skin color replace with, "those who don't think for themselves" or "those who watch to much TV" or "those who don't excersize". How do you know they don't think for themselves? Have you asked all those you label as fat, slothful, lazy..........the cows/sheep? Your judgement of them is stemming from outward appearances rather than who these people really are........................isn't that called prejudice?

Yes, it is called prejudice - and those who deny that they exercise prejudice on a regular basis are lying to themselves and to the public.

I believe in equality - as in - all men and women have the equal right to pursue enlightenment, to pursue greater quality of life, to pursue happiness. All men and women are given the same rights, and equal footing in the eyes of the law, regardless of color, race, creed, social status, $$ in the bank account and so on. All men and women are free to define their own moral values as they see fit. This doesn't mean everyone fits into the same box, or is required to live the same life. It also doesn't mean they have to have a cookie cutter opinion of everyone else.

To say prejudice doesn't exist is to deny that you're human. You prejudge everyone you meet based on their appearance, and then, if you are reasonably open minded, or try to be, you adjust your initial perception of a person through observation and getting to know them. It would be silly to say that one's initial perception of any person is correct - usually it has to be modified and changed. I would think it's better (and yes, I am judging here) to acknowledge that you prejudge people, to acknowledge you have some negative opinions towards groups of people and to work to improve/change that over time.

Those who work towards the improvement of their own minds and understanding, and are honest to themselves and to others as to who and what they are fall into the highest caliber of person - in my opinion. Those who put on a facade of "never prejudging" "never looking down on someone else" those who never think through their own understanding of reality really are sheep - because we can feed them whatever bs through media and they'll believe it's true - on the surface.

What good does it do anyone to never seek to improve themselves? For me - life and consciousness are a journey - to where I don't know...but I know I won't get anywhere if I deny to myself and to others my most basic instincts.

 

[BurlyShirley]

If people sat back and said - I am happy with my life, all I want is this house, this family, my debts, my job and that's it...then great. They're still ship, but they're satisfied sheep. Are all those people you describe satisfied with their life? Or do they bitch and moan that they don't have enough - no one respects them, those darned liberals keep challenging their way of life..etc etc.

I dont think its human nature to ever be 'satisfied'. I have never met a person, liberal or not, rich or poor who was satisfied with everything. And are liberals not, to some extent, trying to change the way of life in this country though? So would some of that be founded?

I tend to be a pretty informed person about the world, compared to most, I think. That is to say, I read the news every day from various sources and try to make sense of it all. I was only born a certain amount of IQ and certain physical attributes. If I draw the conclusions I draw, which happen to be somewhat conservative in nature, there is no amount of learning, or bringing me out of the dark that someone can do. I just mean there are fundamental differences in the way people view things. Labeling some people sheep because they have other priorities is just kind of closed-minded and elitist IMO.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Yes, it is called prejudice - and those who deny that they exercise prejudice on a regular basis are lying to themselves and to the public.

So just because everyone does it does that make it right? I think some people would disagree with this, esspecially a during the 60's.

Now if that statement is directed towards me, I would disagree with you and your assesment of those who don't prejudge. I try VERY hard not to prejudge people, and I would argue this is fundamental to being a follower of Jesus (not prejudging people). For me, prejudging people tended to place and arbitary "value" on people and I would tend objectify people, instead of seeing them a humans with value. For me and my faith, to deny a persons humanity and objectfy them is to ultimatly be disrespectful to God............again that's from the Christian worldview.

This doesn't mean everyone fits into the same box, or is required to live the same life. It also doesn't mean they have to have a cookie cutter opinion of everyone else.

With all due respect these two sentences contradict themselves.

To say prejudice doesn't exist is to deny that you're human.

We also have the propensity for hate and to kill people, I would say just like our propensity to prejudge it's not nessicarily a good trait we carry as humans, and I would argue not how we were intended to look at each other.

Those who work towards the improvement of their own minds and understanding, and are honest to themselves and to others as to who and what they are fall into the highest caliber of person - in my opinion. Those who put on a facade of "never prejudging" "never looking down on someone else" those who never think through their own understanding of reality really are sheep - because we can feed them whatever bs through media and they'll believe it's true - on the surface.

So do these people have more "value" than other people? If so, there goes the whole equality thing.

This whole philosophy of yours would seem to run counter to the whole buddism/karma deal you have going on.

For me - life and consciousness are a journey..........

I couldn't agree with you more.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Labeling some people sheep because they have other priorities is just kind of closed-minded and elitist IMO.

I agree Burly, these are the same traits that some critisize Christians like Pat Robertson (not that I'm sticking up for him) and the like, and yet it's "ok" or rationalized to have that attitude if you come from a certain philosophy - otherwise you're a bigoted redneck.

 

[DRB]

I agree Burly, these are the same traits that some critisize Christians like Pat Robertson (not that I'm sticking up for him) and the like, and yet it's "ok" or rationalized to have that attitude if you come from a certain philosophy - otherwise you're a bigoted redneck.

Its no so much rationalization as it is that some folk make themselves feel better by either 1) Blaming their problems on the actions/inactions of others. 2) Or telling themselves they are better or more worthwhile than that guy over there.

 

[Jr_Bullit]

Whoo boy - no offense, but your response got my blood boiling a bit I would guess that's healthy though .

So just because everyone does it does that make it right? I think some people would disagree with this, esspecially a during the 60's.

I'm not arguing right or wrong, I'm saying we do - and by acknowledging that we do, it gives a starting point for learning where you "prejudge" people and work on improving your knowledge in that area - thus preventing you from "prejudging in the future" Make sense? You rely upon faith that you do not judge others, I rely upon information and knowledge to help shape how I judge people when I meet them. I would rather say, yes I judge you, I may judge you to be very smart, a good dresser, a wealthy person, a poor slob - depends on what appearance you choose to put on. I accept that others judge me without knowing me as well - that is a part of life.

Now if that statement is directed towards me, I would disagree with you and your assesment of those who don't prejudge. I try VERY hard not to prejudge people, and I would argue this is fundamental to being a follower of Jesus (not prejudging people). For me, prejudging people tended to place and arbitary "value" on people and I would tend objectify people, instead of seeing them a humans with value. For me and my faith, to deny a persons humanity and objectfy them is to ultimatly be disrespectful to God............again that's from the Christian worldview.

Yes - you "try very hard", but don't deny that you do prejudge. You try hard not to prejudge negatively - that doesn't mean you don't judge others in some respect to help qualify how you interact with them. It's a bio-reaction, if you do not judge others - even other things, how do you survive?

With all due respect these two sentences contradict themselves.

In what way? They are two completely different sentences?? Sorry darlin - you may want to reread that, because they don't contradict each other. People are different creatures - variety and difference makes us a fun species. But because we're also all different from one another, we also all judge one another - for similarities, for differences, for the unknown (which tends to lead to a negative prejudice until you educate yourself a bit).

We also have the propensity for hate and to kill people, I would say just like our propensity to prejudge it's not nessicarily a good trait we carry as humans, and I would argue not how we were intended to look at each other.

I would argue that is a very good trait - at least in terms of survival. It's a trait we work on to improve our negative prejudices against others, but I don't know many people that work to do away with their positive prejudices. If you categorize others based upon what information you have about that person (don't worry, we all do it), then that is a form of prejudice.

So do these people have more "value" than other people? If so, there goes the whole equality thing.

For me, they do. For others, they may not. But in my personal world view and method in "categorizing" those that are in my life, those who are more open to new ideas, more open to self improvement, are more interesting to me as a person, and are safer to me as a person. But that is a very personal thing.

This whole philosophy of yours would seem to run counter to the whole buddism/karma deal you have going on.

Who the hell ever categorized me as a buddhist? Last I checked, I subscribed to no secular or definable religion - I go my own way. Did you prejudge me darlin?

 

[zod]

Most tend to come to some conclusion in their younger years and then hold onto it desperately throughout their lives and deny anything that might contradict, challenge, or shake their world view.

When I was young I was a liberal, an atheist, and I thought I was a revolutionist. Then I grew the f&ck up. :nuts:

 

[Jr_Bullit]

When I was young I was a liberal, an atheist, and I thought I was a revolutionist. Then I grew the f&ck up. :nuts:

yeah...people call me an idealist...like it's a bad thing. Liberal, Athiest, and Revolutionist aren't terms that define me though.

As for growing up...who wants to do that?

 

[zod]

I wasn't directing that towards you Jr Bullit, just showing that people who change from their "younger years" belief system don't always do so in a direction that MOST consider progressive. Talk about shaking your world view, try going from believing in nothing to believing in God. People have thrown the "learned it when you were young" title at me and believe me I am nothing like I was when I was young.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Whoo boy - no offense, but your response got my blood boiling a bit I would guess that's healthy though .

Well I sure did not intend that, all my statements are in the context of "with all due respect".

Yes - you "try very hard", but don't deny that you do prejudge. You try hard not to prejudge negatively - that doesn't mean you don't judge others in some respect to help qualify how you interact with them. It's a bio-reaction, if you do not judge others - even other things, how do you survive?

I don't think I ever asserted to not prejudge, the distiction I make is I don't justify it as an acceptable mindset..........some would also call this bigotry if they wanted to use inflamatory language.

I'm not an animal living on the African plain searching for my next meal, neither are you or most humans on this planet for the most part. Everything I have to survive is between my ears, I don't need instinct, I have reasoning.

In what way? They are two completely different sentences??

This doesn't mean everyone fits into the same box, or is required to live the same life. It also doesn't mean they have to have a cookie cutter opinion of everyone else.

Sorry darlin - you may want to reread that, because they don't contradict each other. People are different creatures - variety and difference makes us a fun species. But because we're also all different from one another, we also all judge one another - for similarities, for differences, for the unknown (which tends to lead to a negative prejudice until you educate yourself a bit).

If we all don't fit in the same box, why can't some have a cookie cutter approach, their obviously not in your box, which is ok.

Evidently you only like the variety you agree with or like, again your philosophy appears to contradict itself..........again with all due respect.

I would argue that is a very good trait - at least in terms of survival. It's a trait we work on to improve our negative prejudices against others, but I don't know many people that work to do away with their positive prejudices. If you categorize others based upon what information you have about that person (don't worry, we all do it), then that is a form of prejudice.

If you already know the person it's not a prejudge, it's an evaluation you have made based on knowing that person.

From Webster:

1 : injury or damage resulting from some judgment or action of another in disregard of one's rights; especially : detriment to one's legal rights or claims
2 a

(1) : preconceived judgment or opinion

(2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b : an instance of such judgment or opinion c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics

Prejudice has a negative conotation to it, I would argue there are no "positive" prejudices.

For me, they do. For others, they may not. But in my personal world view and method in "categorizing" those that are in my life, those who are more open to new ideas, more open to self improvement, are more interesting to me as a person, and are safer to me as a person. But that is a very personal thing.

Which is fine for you personally, but when it crosses a line of "these people have more 'worth'" then we are just a hop skip and a jump from putting poeple on trains to reeducation camps..............joke of course............

Who the hell ever categorized me as a buddhist? Last I checked, I subscribed to no secular or definable religion - I go my own way. Did you prejudge me darlin?

My apologies. I read a post several months ago that gave me the impression you subscribe to that in some way. I could very well be mistaken as it has been several months and I've had a baby since then, which has "damaged" my short term memory...........LOL But again, JrB, I apologize if I misrepresented you. BTW - it was not a prejudice, it was a faulty evaluation from suspect information.......................

 

[DRB]

I'm not an animal living on the African plain searching for my next meal, neither are you or most humans on this planet for the most part. Everything I have to survive is between my ears, I don't need instinct, I have reasoning.

That's a fine line between instinct and reasoning. Is it reasoning or instinct that causes you to jump out of the way when someone throws something at you?

 

[Silver]

When I was young I was a liberal, an atheist, and I thought I was a revolutionist. Then I grew the f&ck up. :nuts:

That's funny. I used to be a conservative and a believer. Then I learned to read...

 

[zod]

Yes, I know Silver, good for you. You made momma proud.

 

[BurlyShirley]

I don't think I ever asserted to not prejudge, the distiction I make is I don't justify it as an acceptable mindset..........some would also call this bigotry if they wanted to use inflamatory language.

Here Is where I disagree with you. If I see a lady with no teeth sleeping in a laundromat, Im likely not going to assume she'd be ok to "watch my wallet while I go to the bathroom"
God would even think you are a fool to trust everyone.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Here Is where I disagree with you. If I see a lady with no teeth sleeping in a laundromat, Im likely not going to assume she'd be ok to "watch my wallet while I go to the bathroom"
God would even think you are a fool to trust everyone.

I don't think prejudging people and being rational and evaluating the situation are the samething. If I don't trust her with my wallet, does that nessecarily mean she is "less of a person" or have less "value" as a human?

My whole issue boiled down is, and JrB was just the one that said it outloud today (and this is not directed at her specifically), but I know others on here hold the same views as her. If someone wants to be prejudiced that's fine, run with it as far as I'm concerned. The problem becomes when these same people, then scowl at Christians for their stand on homosexuality (for example) and refer to them as bigots because they have (from their point of view) "prejudged" a whole group of people - but these same people prejudge others, why in some cases is it acceptable and others it's not?

Let's be holistic in how we live, and not contradict ourselves with our philosophies and then act a different way (don't you guys rail on Christians for this very thing???) - anyway..................it's been fun today.............

 

[Silver]

Yes, I know Silver, good for you. You made momma proud.

Hey, at least I'm not bragging about starting to believe in Santa as an adult...

 

[zod]

I wasn't bragging, but I certainly am not ashamed of it..........