Well, It's a start! An important issue too. Good stuff.
http://www.kashar.net/complete.asp?id=1978
http://www.kashar.net/complete.asp?id=1978
If Bush uses the veto =
Frist does something good.
- Thread starter Changleen
- Start date
If it was going to be anyone that split from Bush I was hoping it was going to be him.
Isn't that for "surplus" embyo's from fertility clinics that would be disposed of anyway?
The words "surplus embryo" kinda bother me. Potential candidates who flip on moral issues based on what appears to be political expidiancy bother me too. However, if they can do it within those constraints I suppose I could perhaps support it.Andyman_1970 said:
That said, it is my understanding that ebryonic stem cells don't offer much other than potential accesibility over adult cells. If someone KNOWS otherwise please let me know.
He IS a dr. after all. maybe that pin-head president should listen to him. 
No way, that high flueten doctor got too much learnin' to be trusted....TN said:He IS a dr. after all. maybe that pin-head president should listen to him.
If anything it sounds more like political suicide to me especially for a Republican presidential hopeful.Damn True said:
So if the embyo's are going to be destroyed anyway, why not use them for some good? It's not like if this legislation isn't passed these embryo's that are "past their use by date" will be "saved".
Why is this a "moral" issue if the embryo's are slated to be destroyed anyway?
Why is this a "moral" issue if the embryo's are slated to be destroyed anyway?
5 dollars says that we eventually find out that either he or someone he cares deeply about was diagnosed with something that stem cell research may help in July.
Any takers?
Any takers?
i actually watched all of the c-span coverage fri night (re-air), and it seems the focus is on pluripotent cells, which are extracted from the embryonic stem cells. now if these cells can be extracted from the stem cells w/o destroying them, then this seems like a viable & scientifically dutiful path to go. question remains: does extraction then render the stem cell useless, and in essence ceasing a potential legacy?
found some good stuff @ google scholar of interest (to my dumbass, anyway)
ohio, i thought bush's hardline was not federally funding embryonic stem cell research through cells harvested for the purpose of destruction; this (i believe) was his stance to placate his constituency. it may also be his personal position.
found some good stuff @ google scholar of interest (to my dumbass, anyway)
ohio, i thought bush's hardline was not federally funding embryonic stem cell research through cells harvested for the purpose of destruction; this (i believe) was his stance to placate his constituency. it may also be his personal position.
Or bio-tech lobbyists got to him.Silver said:
Either way he did something that more politicians should do, create their own opinion instead of towing the party line.
Nope his stance that only the 72 lines that were existing in 2001 were okay. Any embryonic stem cell research beyond that could not be done with government funding, regardless of the source of the embryos.$tinkle said:
what i can't figure out from this latest "news", is what's all the hullaballoo? seems to me he's had this position for 4 years, and friday he merely added further clarification;
here's what he said 4 yrs ago:
there are 13 other press release results for search terms "stem cell research" on his website
here's what he said 4 yrs ago:
july 15, 2001 press release
there are 13 other press release results for search terms "stem cell research" on his website
can't find anything on the congressional record search tool or roll call to bolster your claim.
you have better access on this topic it seems; could you kindly point me to your source(s)?
you have better access on this topic it seems; could you kindly point me to your source(s)?
Let's be clear about two things this is a change in position on this bill.
1. A month ago Bill Frist said a month ago he did not support the expansion of the stem cell research funding to include embryonic research. This was in direct response to S471.
2. While he claim support of the bill, he also refused to have it brought up for a vote before the recess. Which means that September is the earliest this could come before the Senate. He also said he won't bring it up then either unless he can get agreement on "clean votes" on several pieces of legistlation on bioethical issues. Clean votes means no one adding amendments meant on killing the bills.
The second part brings into question exactly what his support means to the whole thing.
1. A month ago Bill Frist said a month ago he did not support the expansion of the stem cell research funding to include embryonic research. This was in direct response to S471.
2. While he claim support of the bill, he also refused to have it brought up for a vote before the recess. Which means that September is the earliest this could come before the Senate. He also said he won't bring it up then either unless he can get agreement on "clean votes" on several pieces of legistlation on bioethical issues. Clean votes means no one adding amendments meant on killing the bills.
The second part brings into question exactly what his support means to the whole thing.
20 seconds on Google news:
Again $tinkle, you're pursuing an irrelevance. The point is the Republicans as a whole were following a pretty tight party line on this issue, now an important player has diverged from that. Good. It's more democratic and it's sensible. So Frist has always personally believed Stem cell research is a good thing and now he's decided the Whoite House line is dumb and made a high profile statement to that effect. Good. What's your point?
Actually no the Republicans have not held a tight party line on this. This more than any other issue finds Republicans defecting all the time. Look no farther than the fact that his as already passed the house and probably had enough votes to pass the Senate without Frist's support.Changleen said:
A veto is part of the democratic process in the United States.Changleen said:Again, great! The Repubs doing something sensible for a change!Now all we need is for democracy to work and Bush not to veto it.
All they have to do is tack on a giveaway to a large industry with a decent PAC, and Bush won't veto it.DRB said:
What the hell does Bush care about PACs anymore?Silver said:All they have to do is tack on a giveaway to a large industry with a decent PAC, and Bush won't veto it.
No. You may not like it but that's the way the Constitution was written (and for very good reason).Changleen said:
Can't find the sound file for you but here is a little primer on the subject:
Boy: Woof! You sure gotta climb a lot of steps to get to this Capitol Building here in Washington. But I wonder who that sad little scrap of paper is?
I'm just a bill.
Yes, I'm only a bill.
And I'm sitting here on Capitol Hill.
Well, it's a long, long journey
To the capital city.
It's a long, long wait
While I'm sitting in committee,
But I know I'll be a law someday
At least I hope and pray that I will,
But today I am still just a bill.
Boy: Gee, Bill, you certainly have a lot of patience and courage.
Bill: Well I got this far. When I started, I wasn't even a bill, I was just an idea. Some folks back home decided they wanted a law passed, so they called their local Congressman and he said, "You're right, there oughta be a law." Then he sat down and wrote me out and introduced me to Congress. And I became a bill, and I'll remain a bill until they decide to make me a law.
I'm just a bill
Yes I'm only a bill,
And I got as far as Capitol Hill.
Well, now I'm stuck in committee
And I'll sit here and wait
While a few key Congressmen discuss and debate
Whether they should let me be a law.
How I hope and pray that they will,
But today I am still just a bill.
Boy: Listen to those congressmen arguing! Is all that discussion and debate about you?
Bill: Yeah, I'm one of the lucky ones. Most bills never even get this far. I hope they decide to report on me favourably, otherwise I may die.
Boy: Die?
Bill: Yeah, die in committee. Oooh, but it looks like I'm gonna live! Now I go to the House of Representatives, and they vote on me.
Boy: If they vote yes, what happens?
Bill: Then I go to the Senate and the whole thing starts all over again.
Boy: Oh no!
Bill: Oh yes!
I'm just a bill
Yes, I'm only a bill
And if they vote for me on Capitol Hill
Well, then I'm off to the White House
Where I'll wait in a line
With a lot of other bills
For the president to sign
And if he signs me, then I'll be a law.
How I hope and pray that he will,
But today I am still just a bill.
Boy: You mean even if the whole Congress says you should be a law, the president can still say no?
Bill: Yes, that's called a veto. If the President vetoes me, I have to go back to Congress and they vote on me again, and by that time you're so old...
Boy: By that time it's very unlikely that you'll become a law. It's not easy to become a law, is it?
Bill: No!
But how I hope and I pray that I will,
But today I am still just a bill.
Congressman: He signed you, Bill! Now you're a law!
Bill: Oh yes!!!
Boy: Woof! You sure gotta climb a lot of steps to get to this Capitol Building here in Washington. But I wonder who that sad little scrap of paper is?
I'm just a bill.
Yes, I'm only a bill.
And I'm sitting here on Capitol Hill.
Well, it's a long, long journey
To the capital city.
It's a long, long wait
While I'm sitting in committee,
But I know I'll be a law someday
At least I hope and pray that I will,
But today I am still just a bill.
Boy: Gee, Bill, you certainly have a lot of patience and courage.
Bill: Well I got this far. When I started, I wasn't even a bill, I was just an idea. Some folks back home decided they wanted a law passed, so they called their local Congressman and he said, "You're right, there oughta be a law." Then he sat down and wrote me out and introduced me to Congress. And I became a bill, and I'll remain a bill until they decide to make me a law.
I'm just a bill
Yes I'm only a bill,
And I got as far as Capitol Hill.
Well, now I'm stuck in committee
And I'll sit here and wait
While a few key Congressmen discuss and debate
Whether they should let me be a law.
How I hope and pray that they will,
But today I am still just a bill.
Boy: Listen to those congressmen arguing! Is all that discussion and debate about you?
Bill: Yeah, I'm one of the lucky ones. Most bills never even get this far. I hope they decide to report on me favourably, otherwise I may die.
Boy: Die?
Bill: Yeah, die in committee. Oooh, but it looks like I'm gonna live! Now I go to the House of Representatives, and they vote on me.
Boy: If they vote yes, what happens?
Bill: Then I go to the Senate and the whole thing starts all over again.
Boy: Oh no!
Bill: Oh yes!
I'm just a bill
Yes, I'm only a bill
And if they vote for me on Capitol Hill
Well, then I'm off to the White House
Where I'll wait in a line
With a lot of other bills
For the president to sign
And if he signs me, then I'll be a law.
How I hope and pray that he will,
But today I am still just a bill.
Boy: You mean even if the whole Congress says you should be a law, the president can still say no?
Bill: Yes, that's called a veto. If the President vetoes me, I have to go back to Congress and they vote on me again, and by that time you're so old...
Boy: By that time it's very unlikely that you'll become a law. It's not easy to become a law, is it?
Bill: No!
But how I hope and I pray that I will,
But today I am still just a bill.
Congressman: He signed you, Bill! Now you're a law!
Bill: Oh yes!!!
life starts at implantation... with that in mind, there is no problem with stem cell and such...Andyman_1970 said:
if you believe life starts with a fertilized egg (by any means without implantation), then you stem cell is a problem....
but the 2nd reasoning is invalid, as a fertilized egg in a dewar flask has as much chance of surviving and becoming a somewhat conscious human, as a brain dead person in a hospital bed with no eye reflexes (which we accept as dead today)...
with that in mind, what happens right after the instant sperm & egg are joined...suspended animation? you mean to tell me you believe that the only function which then takes place is seeking a perch upon which to "begin life"?ALEXIS_DH said:
i don't know, but i've got 2 hopkins contacts i'll bouce this off of.
$tinkle said:
well, if they meet in an inert medium (say outside an uterus), then they are gone for good...
as of today, there is absolutely no change for that egg to go beyond its present state if its not implanted.
so if it has 0 chance of survival. then its not-alive already (as current medicine says of brain dead people)
just the sperm and egg union is definately not enough... it has to implant itself in a uterus to have a chance of survival.
otherwise is a dead end road.
i think "life" as defined by different dna than your does matter...Changleen said:
if a cell doesnt have your same dna, then its not part of your body, and even if it has no "consciousness", its still not up to you to decide what to do with it (specially if we are talking about wiping out every cell with said dna), on the grounds that its not your body....
wacking off to tranny pr0n only kills your own cells (which are parts of your body) so no problem... but once you kill cells with other dna than yours, then its not really cool.
There is no beginning. It's a process that happens, about half the time it culminates in a human being, and the other half of the time the results go into the toilet (sometimes literally. God tosses about half of all conceptions, making him the abortion king! To truly perform in God's image, we'd have to abort the other half of pregnancies that He doesn't get.)
There's no magic moment of quickening or ensoulment or consciousness. (Except I'm not sure about the last one. I think it's a process, and not a light switch that gets turned on, but I could be wrong.)
There's no magic moment of quickening or ensoulment or consciousness. (Except I'm not sure about the last one. I think it's a process, and not a light switch that gets turned on, but I could be wrong.)