[biker3]

For this next season Im having trouble on deciding between a single pivot or FSR. Im in debate between a Trek Diesel (if available still), Gemini Dh, or a demo8. Last season I was on a gemini so I know what a single pivot is like. I want to know what the difference will be from an FSR. I know brake jack and all that but is there any difference in suppleness and overall suspension performance. I had a 5th E on my gemini so I know that helped a lot but does anyone have some kind of comparison they can give? I dont really have the oppurtunity to test out a demo 8 so i don't really have a clue how it will perform. Ive heard things about FSRs being overly plush and sort of wallowing in their travel is this true? I really like the snappiness of the single pivot when it comes to picking lines will I lose some of that with an FSR? i tried to search but I couldn't really find any overall info. Im really into racing so im looking to make the more race worthy choice of the 3 bikes. I like the fact that the gemini DH comes with the floater but I was one a gemini last season so I kinda want to try something new. Any thoughts would be sweet.

thanks

 

[Roasted]

I would definately do a search. I am definately not a search nazi but there have endless technical discussion on merits of each over the last 2 years. Lots of great information to read through.

 

[Repack]

This EXACT thread topic came up less than a month ago. OK, it may have been called "Four-bar vs. single pivot".
But yeah, use the search function. (I'm not trying to be a dick. You'll get more info faster by searching)

 

[BMXman]

Search

 

[Zark]

The "wallowing" in the travel comment sounds like a long travel FSR before platform shocks. 2000-2001 M1's I've heard described that way. I don't think you'll find this a problem on a demo, the demo 9 I've tried out pedaled like an enduro.

The biggest FSR advantage IMO is the active braking, a floater on a single pivot can solve this. The activity under pedaling is less of an issue in DH, and only comes into play while pedaling in over really choppy ground. FSR's deliver tons of traction during climbing because of this, but that doesn't matter for DH.

 

[Bicyclist]

FSR for sure... and the Demo is way nicer in terms of parts. IMO pedal kickback is really annoying. Do a search and you'll find lots of info. And just don't buy a Trek.

 

[Carbon Fetish]

Specialized has a really good tech info on most of the designs on the market. I don't like single pivots unless you use some type of tunable shock (5th Element or Manitou Swinger) to reduce pedal bob.

http://www.specialized.com/sbc4Bar.jsp?a=b

 

[thaflyinfatman]

Specialized has a really good tech info on most of the designs on the market. I don't like single pivots unless you use some type of tunable shock (5th Element or Manitou Swinger) to reduce pedal bob.

http://www.specialized.com/sbc4Bar.jsp?a=b

That Specialized propaganda is the biggest heap of **** I've read in a long time. Not so much their analyses of other suspension setups, but the outright BS in touting their own suspension systems as the best in every conceivable situation. Please don't be so naive as to believe somebody (eg Specialized) who has a vested interest in slagging off every other system so as to promote their own. FSR is not perfect, especially the way Specialized always configures theirs; I've never ridden a single Specialized that I thought pedalled "well".

 

[Jesus]

I prefer a FSR to a single pivot. I just feel they are more plush, and the suspension still works when your laying on the brakes.

If you are super fast like the pro's, it wouldn't matter that much. Most of those guys would still do well on a Huffy. But for someone like me who uses they're brakes a lot, FSR is the way to go.

A floating brake on a single pivot does help, but from people I have talked to, it doesn't completely solve the problem most of the time. So it's FSR for me!

 

[KleinMp99]

That Specialized propaganda is the biggest heap of **** I've read in a long time. Not so much their analyses of other suspension setups, but the outright BS in touting their own suspension systems as the best in every conceivable situation. Please don't be so naive as to believe somebody (eg Specialized) who has a vested interest in slagging off every other system so as to promote their own. FSR is not perfect, especially the way Specialized always configures theirs; I've never ridden a single Specialized that I thought pedalled "well".

FSR is the best suspension design. If you have never ridden a single specialized that you thought pedalled well, then you obviously havent ever ridden one at all. Jump on your xc bike and lets race up a hill....dont be suprised when I beat you on my demo 9.

 

[zstyle_22]

Get the demo 8 for sure, I've ridden the gemini and the demo 9 and the demo 9 gets way better small bump absorbtion. That is the disadvantage of single pivot designs, they have bad small bump absorbtion, regardless if it is an Orange, Trek, or Cannondale. You will be much happier with a multipivot design.

 

[SebringMGB]

Get the demo 8 for sure, I've ridden the gemini and the demo 9 and the demo 9 gets way better small bump absorbtion. That is the disadvantage of single pivot designs, they have bad small bump absorbtion, regardless if it is an Orange, Trek, or Cannondale. You will be much happier with a multipivot design.

I feel that this fact is what keeps me off fsr bikes. I dont like bikes that absorb every bit of the trail. they tend to feel doggy to me. slow and unresponsive. If or not they are is questionable, but I dont like the feeling in any case. and while single pivonts may not completly absorb every small bump, the suspension does react.

And it seems to me, that all performance dirtbikes are a single pivot with a linkage actuated shock. And dirtbikes have had many more years of development.

 

[TheMontashu]

I would say go with the gemini. It has a floater so theres no brake jack. The demo is realy heavy. The cannondale is also realy strong couse if its single pivot. What ever you do i wouldent go with the trek though.

 

[D_D]

FSR is the best suspension design. If you have never ridden a single specialized that you thought pedalled well, then you obviously havent ever ridden one at all. Jump on your xc bike and lets race up a hill....dont be suprised when I beat you on my demo 9.

Unfortunatly my xc bike has barends so you lose.

To actually be helpfull, go ride as many bikes as you can. If there was a perfect design out there we would all be riding it. It's all about the compromises in the design and how they affect you. The best way to work all that out is to just go and ride different bikes and pick one you get on with. Some people like FSR some people like single pivots, some people get on with pretty much anything.

 

[Sandwich]

I feel that this fact is what keeps me off fsr bikes. I dont like bikes that absorb every bit of the trail. they tend to feel doggy to me. slow and unresponsive. If or not they are is questionable, but I dont like the feeling in any case. and while single pivonts may not completly absorb every small bump, the suspension does react.

And it seems to me, that all performance dirtbikes are a single pivot with a linkage actuated shock. And dirtbikes have had many more years of development.

but dirtbikes don't have pedal bob or a moving chainline. With no change in the torque force from the chain, and no up and down while applying that torque, you could use a URT and get good suspension performance. I ride a concentric (Arrow ds3) and I think it sucks for pedaling. It's nice on everything else, and has a great feel with no kickback, but when my lanky ass goes to sprint, it is less than ideal on long travel. I think a motobike is pretty similar in design (pivot on or very near the chainline).

anyways, I think it comes down to preference. I like overly complicated 4bars (lawill, vpp, etc.) but I'm sure that a good rider could be just as fast on a single or multi pivot bike. Are you satisfied with what you have? Stick with it, there's a good chance you'll lose money if you try and sell. Not so happy? Get something else. I've always ridden 4 bars (never a single pivot except for my arrow, which is KIND OF a single pivot) and I probably wouldn't switch unless I got my hands on a SUNN. but that's just me.

 

[Zark]

I would say go with the gemini. It has a floater so theres no brake jack. The demo is realy heavy. The cannondale is also realy strong couse if its single pivot. What ever you do i wouldent go with the trek though.

So you've weighed the Demo 8, which isn't even available to the public yet, to make this informed statement?

I'll deduct -10 yards for blatent e-speculation and rumor spreading, FSR maintains possession of the ball

The '04 Demo9 is a hefty 13.5 pounds (but pedals like much less) But the Demo 8 is a new frame and will "probably" be much lighter than that.

 

[TheMontashu]

the demo 8 is 40 pounds with there light race build

 

[Zark]

the demo 8 is 40 pounds with there light race build

And that is "really heavy"
Did you weigh this yourself or is this more e-speculation?
What the hell is light then? A 35 pound freeride bike?

 

[Sherpa]

the demo 8 is 40 pounds with there light race build

****, biker3 would be thrilled to have such a badass bike at 40lbs. (Were riding buddies). We shuttled today and i rode his Gemini and he rode my bighit, he loved the bighit and think hes going to get a Demo 8.

-TS

 

[The Kadvang]

the demo 8 is 40 pounds with there light race build

Which is light...

 

[Bicyclist]

If you don't like small bump sensitivity (Isn't that what you want out of a DH bike???) then you can firm up the shock. And FSR isn't designed to reduce pedal bob, it's designed to be plush. That's where the SPV shock is nice on the Demo. Just get an FSR.

 

[TheMontashu]

Which is light...

you could drop 4 or 5 pounds off that build and its still not the lightest frame

 

[TheMontashu]

If you don't like small bump sensitivity (Isn't that what you want out of a DH bike???) then you can firm up the shock. And FSR isn't designed to reduce pedal bob, it's designed to be plush. That's where the SPV shock is nice on the Demo. Just get an FSR.

the FSR is to prevent brake jack wich a floater ememinats go with the Cdale

 

[The Kadvang]

you could drop 4 or 5 pounds off that build and its still not the lightest frame

A 35 pound downhill race bike... Riiiight

 

[TheMontashu]

I know a guy with a 36 pound gemini DH and he can still drop weight ion his wheels

 

[Sandwich]

actually the purpose of the horst-link (fsr for marketeers) was invented by horst leintner for AMP Research bikes to improve pedaling performance. I'm sure he never considered brake activity when he designed it on his 80mm travel mac strut tiny shock equipped XC frame.

I'm pretty sure it was designed to eliminate pedal bob, in the same way the lawill bikes did. Specialized bought his design, outmarketed him and then patented it.

NOWADAYS, we have the extreme interpretation of it in the form of the m1 and specialized bikes. Horst links simply work better, otherwise, why would every company pay Special ed for the patent? More companies are switching to a seatstay pivot, but probably not because they want to (jamis), they just can't justify the patent cost. Modern horsts do feature independant braking, pedaling and a slightly modified axle path, all good things while riding, but often at the cost of higher maintenance, higher weight, and higher cost.

Not that you can't get away with something simpler (cheaper). I think the winning pro was on a seatstay pivot/swingarm kona and the other top riders were on a mishmash of swingarms and etc. You can be fast on either, i believe it comes down to preference and how much a little bob or brake jack bothers you. Since I'm slow, I need all the help I can get.

 

[The Kadvang]

I know a guy with a 36 pound gemini DH and he can still drop weight ion his wheels

Build? Way light...

 

[TheMontashu]

yup compleat

 

[The Kadvang]

yup compleat

Sweet. Whats on it?

 

[TheMontashu]

its heath sherats its a gemini DH, shermen breakout plus, Hope mini manos, WTB laser disc DH hubs and wheels, anwser carbon bars i think, Sram X9 shifter X0 RD, evil guide, housfellers cranks, wtb tires with stans, and BB i dont know the rest though. there is still room for some weight drop on that bike too.

 

[Sherpa]

its heath sherats its a gemini DH, shermen breakout plus, Hope mini manos, WTB laser disc DH hubs and wheels, anwser carbon bars i think, Sram X9 shifter X0 RD, evil guide, housfellers cranks, wtb tires with stans, and BB i dont know the rest though. there is still room for some weight drop on that bike too.

WTF? Hope Mono Minis on a DH bike. Puhlease. Sounds like the guy never rides and just likes to have a light bike.

 

[The Kadvang]

WTF? Hope Mono Minis on a DH bike. Puhlease. Sounds like the guy never rides and just likes to have a light bike.

They are good enough for Peaty...

Nice build... Supah light.

 

[LukeD]

They are good enough for Peaty...

Nice build... Supah light.

but he hardly ever brakes and is a world cup champion ...he did switch to a 4 in the front though from what i've seen as of late.

 

[The Kadvang]

but he hardly ever brakes and is a world cup champion ...he did switch to a 4 in the front though from what i've seen as of late.

Haha true that. Still, I think Minis would be adequate for DH. How much weight would you save, anyway?

 

[LukeD]

Haha true that. Still, I think Minis would be adequate for DH. How much weight would you save, anyway?

not enough to make much of a difference i dont think. off of the hope website...
minis: Weight: 375g (inc. lever, hose, 160mm disc, caliper, pads, fluid & all fixing bolts)
m4: Weight: 430g (inc. lever, hose, 180mm disc, caliper, pads, fluid & all fixing bolts)
that's just for one wheel. lol when it comes to braking i dont think it really matters how heavy they r...i mean afterall if i have to decide between saving my ass from hitting a tree with a heavier caliper and more power and lightweight caliper with less power...i'll take the extra braking power any day. lol

 

[The Kadvang]

not enough to make much of a difference i dont think. off of the hope website...
minis: Weight: 375g (inc. lever, hose, 160mm disc, caliper, pads, fluid & all fixing bolts)
m4: Weight: 430g (inc. lever, hose, 180mm disc, caliper, pads, fluid & all fixing bolts)
that's just for one wheel. lol when it comes to braking i dont think it really matters how heavy they r...i mean afterall if i have to decide between saving my ass from hitting a tree with a heavier caliper and more power and lightweight caliper with less power...i'll take the extra braking power any day. lol

Thats for sure.

 

[TheMontashu]

WTF? Hope Mono Minis on a DH bike. Puhlease. Sounds like the guy never rides and just likes to have a light bike.

He rides for cannondale and like 4 or 5 other companies

last I saw wich was this morning he had minis on it

 

[thaflyinfatman]

FSR is the best suspension design. If you have never ridden a single specialized that you thought pedalled well, then you obviously havent ever ridden one at all. Jump on your xc bike and lets race up a hill....dont be suprised when I beat you on my demo 9.

hahahahaha "best suspension design". FSR a good compromise between all the major suspension features, but it's not outstanding in any given area TYPICALLY. They rarely pedal particularly well, the suspension action isn't *that* plush, they're not inherently stiff laterally, etc. However, they usually do all of the above FAIRLY well, and as such don't suffer a lot in any given area.
BTW, anyone who honestly believes in a "best suspension design" (of any kind, be it Lawwill, FSR, DW-link, singlepivot, VPP, whatever) is, IMO, of far-below-average intelligence.

Oh, and I've ridden:
Enduro (2)
numerous Bighits (at least 3 or 4)
the old s-works DHer
one of the 02 FSR-XC bikes (not sure which one it was, stumpjumper maybe)
None of them pedalled well. Not one. The Bighits in particular bobbed and shat and bogged down quite badly.

Oh not to mention the two FSR bikes I've owned in the past (Norco Atomik and Team DH) as well as the FSR bike I own now (Iron Horse SGS), and the numerous other, non-Specialized, FSR bikes I've ridden (Intense M1 and Tazer, Craftworks DHR205/208 and FRM125).

Yeah, clearly I've got no experience to back up my opinion... :nuts:

 

[Roasted]

hahahahaha "best suspension design". FSR a good compromise between all the major suspension features, but it's not outstanding in any given area TYPICALLY. They rarely pedal particularly well, the suspension action isn't *that* plush, they're not inherently stiff laterally, etc. However, they usually do all of the above FAIRLY well, and as such don't suffer a lot in any given area.
BTW, anyone who honestly believes in a "best suspension design" (of any kind, be it Lawwill, FSR, DW-link, singlepivot, VPP, whatever) is, IMO, of far-below-average intelligence.

Best statement yet. There is no best and fsr is a great comprimise. It comprimises in the best ways for my riding which is why I like it anyways...and I definately agree with plushness. Hopped on my buddies gaint dh comp...feltlike a sofa compared to a rocking chair. Although the dh comp wouldn't do what I wanted anyways.

Although I find the bighit really stiff laterally, and I definately put weight into my bike at 270 without gear on.

 

[Konaowner]

So how does the Kona Stinky rear linkage design compare to these? What is it called? Horst? Single pivot or Four bar? Is it stiff laterally, good on pedaling, and small bump sensitive compared to say FSR?

Cheers KO