Personaly I think my big hit peadels like a pile of crap. It bobs like crazt when i pedel it on anything not going downwards.
FSR vs Single pivot? What will I get or lose from each?
- Thread starter biker3
- Start date
BurlySurly said:
Kornphlake said:
i understand exactly what you're saying, however- my point wasn't that one is fully active vs. whatever, but rather those were old marketing terms because of pedaling performance.
To note: A lot of high-pivots pedal like crap because of sag. When you crank, the rear wheel will extend, then when you're off the cranks it will sag back to the original point. Am I wrong? They used to call this bio-pacing, and the early cannondale bikes were widely hated because the pivot was skyhigh and riding the bike was like riding something equipped with biopace chainrings (bob...bob....bob...bob...bob..etc)
This is why BCD et al use some sort of pully to reduce chain pull. That's not marketing hype, as far as I know. There are, apparently, two kinds of bob. Rider induced, and torque induced. IMO, both suck. The VPP works by countering rider bob with torque bob, knocking them both out.
From what I understand, horsts counter suspension bob. Riders who suck at pedaling in general can still make the bike suck at pedaling.
#2, fine, let's e-bitch for the rest of our online existances about what's a four bar and what's not. At least I tried. So much for trying to make some sense.
I felt my bighit didn't peddle very well, but now I contribute it more to rider style or my lack there of. Seriously it did bob like crazy but a "pushed" shock or a spv type would probably help this. I recently was also in the market for a new frame, threw the ideas around and got some really good replies from other people on here. After saying I wasn't going to stay w/ Special Ed I ended up getting a great deal on a left over Demo 9 pro and I love it pedals and handles great regardless of weight. And it's built like a tank. I find the lower stand over and low center of gravity is a real confidence booster, completly different ride then my BH at least in my opinion.
here is the old thread
http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95577
in better comparison to your second comment, what I'm saying is more along the lines of comparing peak HP to broad torque curve.
two different powerbands, two different goals.
Your high pivot...firm pedaler, lighter, generally stiffer, but sucks under braking and suffers kickback.
My multi-link...smooshy, generally heavier and more prone to breakdown, good pedaling and braking.
Your peaky, high HP engine. Great HP, but you have to be at 14,000 rpm to use it.
My broad torque band, high displacement engine. Perhaps less perfomance figures, but usable torque throughout the range from 3-7000 rpm.
They achieve different things. What are you gonna do with each? each has it's flaws and advantages, but in the real world they are very different things.
two different powerbands, two different goals.
Your high pivot...firm pedaler, lighter, generally stiffer, but sucks under braking and suffers kickback.
My multi-link...smooshy, generally heavier and more prone to breakdown, good pedaling and braking.
Your peaky, high HP engine. Great HP, but you have to be at 14,000 rpm to use it.
My broad torque band, high displacement engine. Perhaps less perfomance figures, but usable torque throughout the range from 3-7000 rpm.
They achieve different things. What are you gonna do with each? each has it's flaws and advantages, but in the real world they are very different things.
they aren't really bars though. Links really, and a triangle.binary visions said:
Who am I to argue, and what do I know. I've only watched the evolution of bicycle suspension since late 95. I'm just a ****ing moron who can't tell the difference between marketing jargon and real world effects. According to the infamous e-engineers, apparently.
Man, this forum is getting lame.
Alot of poeple I knowm are not posting here for that same reson. But I can tall you that some of my friends stoped because of some unamed respect cult members.
Care to name them? Go on! Some people dont half take some **** too personally and bitch about unimportant bull****! Each to their own..
Lets all lighten up, its non of these guys faults that the big 'S' is a corporate, overhyped/marketed, pile of money grabbing over-rated ****e run by men in suits who know ****all about bikes and are probably have their heads to firmly up their asses to ride/drive anything other than the latest (overhyped) prestige saloon, **** big companies!
Ummm are you drunk. You seem kinda bitter.
Ironically...you seem like the one that needs to lighten up...
Ironically...you seem like the one that needs to lighten up...
Roasted said:
Bighits (and SXs) rock! period.
Nope, why would I be bitter?? I'm not as bothered as all you guys seem to be. It matters not to me.Roasted said:
However; The reason I might appear bitter is because i'm a 'Straight Talker' by trade.
So I speak my mind, and bluntly too.I wish I was drunk, but at 9;30 am, thats a bit early even for me.
You're absolutely right. Despite having never met me, you've correctly deduced that:KleinMp99 said:
a) I'm just a curb dropper
b) I don't know how to correctly pedal a bike (years of XC will do that to me)
or
c) My actual experiences are "wrong"
Congratulations, your credibility has just gone through the roof.... of B12.
Now back to reality: yeah if you float on top of an FSR bike, it doesn't bob at all. If by that you mean, apply perfectly even force through the chain at all times, all the while not moving your CoG, then yes you are correct. However, even the worst-pedaling bikes won't move if you can do that (but nobody can, so it's a moot point - if we could, making efficient suspension systems wouldn't be a concern). Oh and please do get a video of your demo 9's suspension "only moving 1/4 of an inch" (and even better, same vid of a Bighit). Make sure it's with a non-spv/propedal shock too, just to prove that your bike really does pedal that well.
Wow, we're busting out the big guns tonight. Not that I think of myself as a good rider, but AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAKleinMp99 said:
See, that's the problem. The Horst link does nothing special to counter suspension bob. The bike pedals like a low, rearward single pivot. Which, in fact, doesn't bob much - so yipee, they have a design that doesn't bob. But it has little to do with that Horst link.Sandwich said:
Again, this is not to say that Horst link designs are bad, just that they are overhyped and have magical qualities attributed to them that just don't exist.
Yeah, that's what everyone is saying. That you're a ****ing moron. No, what's lame is not being able to enter into a discussion without taking offense. Even when a statement is prefaced with "Don't take offense" (in hopes that it would indicate that I was making a general rant and not trying to insult anyone in particular).If it's lame, then don't enter into the discussion. The rest of us will continue it without assuming that the other person thinks we're a moron.
Best post ever ^^^
I heard you bent your fork crown from dropping curbs :devil:thaflyinfatman said:
This is true. We have big curbs down here, and they sometimes put em on racetracks!Rik said:
Okay, I give up, single pivots suck and 4 bars rule. Fords are better than Chevys and Gateway is better than Dell. It would seem that certain people are attempting to participate in a discussion based on accepted engineering principles but refuse to accept the accepted principles, at this point I'm not sure which side of the fence I'm on. I concede I'm the one that's wrong.
testy testy...
KP-
you accuse me of succumbing to marketing hype, and that I don't know my sh.t, but I thought that for nearly ten years now, we've known that chain torque counters suspension movement on high pivot bikes. Maybe I'm way out west, but I thought that has been set in stone. My gt sts had some nasty kickback in the granny ring, and the pivot was just about parallel to the middle ring.
I'm not saying one is better than the other, but that the further you move from the BB, generally you see more pedal influence. Each has its merits, and you can find greatness and faults in either design. However, I think it's incorrect to assume that all high pivots are designed to counter rider bob with chain torque, and that's what you were saying. If the original question-asker (is that a word?) wants to know what to expect from both, I don't think it's wise to send him high pivot without knowing what it does. There are tradeoffs from each design. If high pivots pedalled so well, wouldn't we see more of these, and less of the VPP and DW?
And in reference to BV, why, if horst links don't do much at all, and are 90% hype, are so many riders enjoying them? Why would a company EVER pay for the patent, if the same results are easily acheived by a seatstay pivot? Why did Intense change the M1? Why does turner continue to use it on it's 5-spot, etc.? Why does everybody on this board like the RFX so much? It's not much different than a transition or kona, except for the horst link and build quality. Please elighten me, because maybe I can get hired as a consultant with said companies, and tell them that the horst link they're paying for does nothing special.
From what I understand, the horst link allows manipulation of the axle path, and this affects the suspension performance. You can't get that with a seatstay pivot, and this is why people use the horst. This is why I liked my lawill so much (another horst) and don't like my arrow that much. Similarly, the sts that I had pedalled well in every ring but the granny, because the pivot was too high. Properly designed vs. not properly designed, that is the question!
Just because I don't have 9 thousand posts, I'm not credible?
KP-
you accuse me of succumbing to marketing hype, and that I don't know my sh.t, but I thought that for nearly ten years now, we've known that chain torque counters suspension movement on high pivot bikes. Maybe I'm way out west, but I thought that has been set in stone. My gt sts had some nasty kickback in the granny ring, and the pivot was just about parallel to the middle ring.
I'm not saying one is better than the other, but that the further you move from the BB, generally you see more pedal influence. Each has its merits, and you can find greatness and faults in either design. However, I think it's incorrect to assume that all high pivots are designed to counter rider bob with chain torque, and that's what you were saying. If the original question-asker (is that a word?) wants to know what to expect from both, I don't think it's wise to send him high pivot without knowing what it does. There are tradeoffs from each design. If high pivots pedalled so well, wouldn't we see more of these, and less of the VPP and DW?
And in reference to BV, why, if horst links don't do much at all, and are 90% hype, are so many riders enjoying them? Why would a company EVER pay for the patent, if the same results are easily acheived by a seatstay pivot? Why did Intense change the M1? Why does turner continue to use it on it's 5-spot, etc.? Why does everybody on this board like the RFX so much? It's not much different than a transition or kona, except for the horst link and build quality. Please elighten me, because maybe I can get hired as a consultant with said companies, and tell them that the horst link they're paying for does nothing special.
From what I understand, the horst link allows manipulation of the axle path, and this affects the suspension performance. You can't get that with a seatstay pivot, and this is why people use the horst. This is why I liked my lawill so much (another horst) and don't like my arrow that much. Similarly, the sts that I had pedalled well in every ring but the granny, because the pivot was too high. Properly designed vs. not properly designed, that is the question!
Just because I don't have 9 thousand posts, I'm not credible?
High pivots vs low pivots is something you understand it sounds like but you're incorrectly assuming that adding a horst link will change the effect that chain torque has.
Your right though, not all single pivots are created equally but generally a high forward pivot will pedal better, meaning it will bob less under hard pedaling than a low rearward single pivot, while a low rearward single pivot will feel like it pedals smoother over rough terrain but might bounce around a bit more when sprinting on flat ground. This is assuming we are talking about high end modern bikes, not mediocre antiquated designs. Single pivot technology has come a long way since the late '80s. VPP and DW and all the other links are attempts to get the best of both a high and a low pivot, good bump sensitivity and firm pedaling.
Your right though, not all single pivots are created equally but generally a high forward pivot will pedal better, meaning it will bob less under hard pedaling than a low rearward single pivot, while a low rearward single pivot will feel like it pedals smoother over rough terrain but might bounce around a bit more when sprinting on flat ground. This is assuming we are talking about high end modern bikes, not mediocre antiquated designs. Single pivot technology has come a long way since the late '80s. VPP and DW and all the other links are attempts to get the best of both a high and a low pivot, good bump sensitivity and firm pedaling.
Please re-read my post and double check what we have been discussing. The Horst link has many different suspension characteristics than, say, a linkage setup a la Kona, but pedalling isn't one of them. That's what I've been trying to correct - you seem to be under the impression that the Horst link makes the bike pedal like gangbusters, and while the bike may pedal great, it's not because that particular pivot is causing it.Sandwich said:
What's with this hurt, hang-dog routine? Nobody is attacking your credibility. Nobody is calling you a moron. Are you seeing posts that I'm not? Stop acting like a martyr just because someone corrected an inaccuracy in your post.
IMO FSR MUST be the best suspension design that will ever be produced since it was incepted in mtb-full-sus-infancy, it is imposible to conceive of a suspension system that will perform equally well or better, regardless of the progression of the sport (different demands) and of designers and technology!
There is no such thing as 'neutral handling' the bike is a construct, the bikes we ride today are a mix of tradition and innovation, the tradition dictates that what 'we' understand as a bike is something with two wheels in line and something driving the rear wheel. This constitutes the playing field for the designers. Early full suspension designs looked (and functioned) a cartain way because they mimiced the profile of traditional double diamond framed rear triangles, there is no 'clean sheet' when designing bikes and there is no such thing as 'neutral handling' or 'neutral braking' there are tihngs that bikes have in common and there are things they don't, some you like and some you don't!
:
IMO the best bike in the world ever is the IH sunday, I have never seen one in the flesh much less ridden one, but I know 4 sho that is is the best design that will ever be made in the history of time, EVER! So whoever started this thread, buy the sunday!
(Yes i did spend too long on a reply that is not even funny or informative)
There is no such thing as 'neutral handling' the bike is a construct, the bikes we ride today are a mix of tradition and innovation, the tradition dictates that what 'we' understand as a bike is something with two wheels in line and something driving the rear wheel. This constitutes the playing field for the designers. Early full suspension designs looked (and functioned) a cartain way because they mimiced the profile of traditional double diamond framed rear triangles, there is no 'clean sheet' when designing bikes and there is no such thing as 'neutral handling' or 'neutral braking' there are tihngs that bikes have in common and there are things they don't, some you like and some you don't!
: IMO the best bike in the world ever is the IH sunday, I have never seen one in the flesh much less ridden one, but I know 4 sho that is is the best design that will ever be made in the history of time, EVER! So whoever started this thread, buy the sunday!
(Yes i did spend too long on a reply that is not even funny or informative)
I'm not sure what you'll lose, but I know what you will get from asking this question...
a headache...
a headache...
You'll probably loose a lot of money
I tried a 223 and an M1 for the first time a few weeks ago and they both felt very different bikes, but both felt fantastic.
Buy the one that looks the nicest or you can get the best deal on.
Buy the one that looks the nicest or you can get the best deal on.
Lumpy_Gravy said:
Thread is over, we have a winner. Now let's all be friends again.
I'm not refering to people on this thread.The Hitman said:
I will seriously try to tape my camera onto my seatstay or something to show you. I dont see why I have to do it with a bighit though, and with a non spv propedal shock? Hmm...I dont have one of those. The reason that it pedals well is because of the SPV....I thought I remembered saying something about that but I guess not. I have had all the air out of it before, and it bobs like crazy. So I guess I wasnt thinking straight when I said the bike pedals well, because its only due to the shock. All that I know is that my demo pedals well and I can get up hills even with it being a 50 pounder. Some of the longer roads and stuff that we have to bike/walk up to get to the trails I cant ride up with the demo due to its weight. I could pedal up the same hill all the way with my bighit comp when I had it, so that is why I thought that they pedalled really well also.thaflyinfatman said:
And yea, I apologize for calling you a curb dropper and whatever else I said.... I guess I am not in a good mood all the time. Plus I am quite loyal to specialized - if your loyal to any one company you might know how I feel (getting defensive if somebody says something negative about it). What kind of bikes do you ride anyway?
Lastly.....this is what I drive :love:
Is a Gemini considered a low pivot single pivot or what? And isnt the Demo "Fsr" technically more like a single pivot in its axle path then other Fsr due to the solid link thing or whatever?
thanks guys and its soo funny watchin this thread get out of hand...
thanks guys and its soo funny watchin this thread get out of hand...
definately low single pivotJm_ said:
(mac-strut)
I have yet to attempt that stair gap. Not that its big, you just have to start on their porch to do it 
neaky:
Soon....soon
And I will get some updated pics of the team van.
neaky: Soon....soon
And I will get some updated pics of the team van.
Vids of van doing stargap please, focusing on pedal bob in rear end.
