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Future Of Geometry? Grim F@#$IN DONUT

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Turbo Monkey
Feb 9, 2016
2,066
1,437
SWE
Back on sizing, Enduro MTB has an article where they ride race bikes from the pro. Here is some of that article:

"EWS professionals ride surprisingly short bikes – for good reason

The development of innovations always follows certain trends. Often the pendulum swings far in one direction only to level off somewhere in the middle. This seems to be the case with modern geometry. If you check out the race bikes on test, you'll probably be asking yourself how Richie Rude, who is 180 cm tall, can be so fast on a bike with a reach of only 460 mm. Jack Moir is 1.91 m tall and rides a size L Strive, which, due to the extremely tall cockpit, is guaranteed to have a reach under 460 mm. The mullet conversion on the GT Force Carbon that Martin Maes rides has also shrunk the bike down to less than 460 mm in length. The reason for this became clear during the course of our test. Not only did the shorter bikes record faster times, they also allowed our test riders to change direction more quickly and position themselves better before corners to carry their speed through them. On top of that, the agile handling of compact bikes is usually more fun. Anyone who thinks that these bikes aren't composed at high speeds can rest assured: handling stability is heavily determined by the suspension and all the bikes on test performed brilliantly in this regard.

Compact bikes are fast! For our 180 cm tall test riders, the medium Yeti performed better than the SB150 in L, which we reviewed previously. To prove our theory, we tested the Yeti and the COMMENCAL in both frame sizes. The smaller ones always came out on top.

Narrow handlebars are awesome!

Another trend that is swinging back is extra-wide handlebars. The professionals on the EWS circuit ride astoundingly narrow handlebars. The Renthal bar on the Yeti measures just 750 mm, the one on the Canyon is 765 mm wide and the Lapierre had a 755 mm model fitted. After taking a little while to accustom themselves to them, four of our five test riders found the narrow models better overall. They found them to offer more direct steering and increased freedom of movement, reducing tension on the bike with arms spread less wide. After the test, we ended up shortening the bars on our private bikes, starting at 770 mm. In any case, the fact is that 800 or 810 mm, as some manufacturers fit on their bikes these days, is too wide for most 180 cm tall riders.
"

I don't deny the benefits of longer bikes, it's just that there is an upper limit above which longer is not always better
 

Harry BarnOwl

Monkey
Jul 24, 2008
174
38
Back on sizing, Enduro MTB has an article where they ride race bikes from the pro. Here is some of that article:

"EWS professionals ride surprisingly short bikes – for good reason

The development of innovations always follows certain trends. Often the pendulum swings far in one direction only to level off somewhere in the middle. This seems to be the case with modern geometry. If you check out the race bikes on test, you'll probably be asking yourself how Richie Rude, who is 180 cm tall, can be so fast on a bike with a reach of only 460 mm. Jack Moir is 1.91 m tall and rides a size L Strive, which, due to the extremely tall cockpit, is guaranteed to have a reach under 460 mm. The mullet conversion on the GT Force Carbon that Martin Maes rides has also shrunk the bike down to less than 460 mm in length. The reason for this became clear during the course of our test. Not only did the shorter bikes record faster times, they also allowed our test riders to change direction more quickly and position themselves better before corners to carry their speed through them. On top of that, the agile handling of compact bikes is usually more fun. Anyone who thinks that these bikes aren't composed at high speeds can rest assured: handling stability is heavily determined by the suspension and all the bikes on test performed brilliantly in this regard.

Compact bikes are fast! For our 180 cm tall test riders, the medium Yeti performed better than the SB150 in L, which we reviewed previously. To prove our theory, we tested the Yeti and the COMMENCAL in both frame sizes. The smaller ones always came out on top.

Narrow handlebars are awesome!

Another trend that is swinging back is extra-wide handlebars. The professionals on the EWS circuit ride astoundingly narrow handlebars. The Renthal bar on the Yeti measures just 750 mm, the one on the Canyon is 765 mm wide and the Lapierre had a 755 mm model fitted. After taking a little while to accustom themselves to them, four of our five test riders found the narrow models better overall. They found them to offer more direct steering and increased freedom of movement, reducing tension on the bike with arms spread less wide. After the test, we ended up shortening the bars on our private bikes, starting at 770 mm. In any case, the fact is that 800 or 810 mm, as some manufacturers fit on their bikes these days, is too wide for most 180 cm tall riders.
"

I don't deny the benefits of longer bikes, it's just that there is an upper limit above which longer is not always better
This is really interesting, the article is well-written and worth a read in full. The author put a lot of emphasis on bike length vs the ability (or lack) to weight the front wheel effectively in corners to maximise exit speed.

Could it be that the longer reach/wheelbase trend delivers the most benefit to less skilled riders by artificially making the chassis more stable in a straight line? Obviously the grim donut worked for Barelli who is extremely skilled but perhaps that was more down to the nature of the test track. Would be interesting to see him test it on a variety of tracks.
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
88,634
26,881
media blackout
That's putting it lightly. Maybe I could find someone licensed to pack and ship a Li-Ion in a city as big as Denver but that's 2 hours away and still a crap shoot. Almost no one is likely to find that service close to home.
I've shipped a large Li-Ion battery at my local UPS store (told them it was bike parts) but that was illegal and it was staying in-country so little chance of being found out.
The requirements aren't anything super crazy, I'll pull them up once I log onto my work computer. You just have to know much lithium is in the battery itself, (which can be pulled from the mnfg info if it's not on the battery itself, however I think they now allow the wattage hours to be listed since that's easier to find) put a special label on the box, and I think sometimes a static bag?
 

Lelandjt

adorbs
Apr 4, 2008
2,636
997
Breckenridge, CO/Lahaina,HI
The requirements aren't anything super crazy, I'll pull them up once I log onto my work computer. You just have to know much lithium is in the battery itself, (which can be pulled from the mnfg info if it's not on the battery itself, however I think they now allow the wattage hours to be listed since that's easier to find) put a special label on the box, and I think sometimes a static bag?
Last time I checked you need to be licensed to pack and ship Li-Ion batteries.
 

Lelandjt

adorbs
Apr 4, 2008
2,636
997
Breckenridge, CO/Lahaina,HI
Could it be that the longer reach/wheelbase trend delivers the most benefit to less skilled riders by artificially making the chassis more stable in a straight line?
Yes. Same goes for wide bars. Back when I was racing at a high level and hanging out with Richie and those guys during transitions I remember the two of us talking handlebar width and we were both on 750s while the standard was much wider. A few other fast guys chimed in that they were on 740-760. Reaches were just starting to grow but a lot of the fast guys were on unfashionably shorter frames. Basically everything is a trade off and a lot of the fast guys were willing to give up some stability for quicker moves in the tight stuff, the assumption being that their skills in the high speed and steeps didn't require the extra stability.
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
88,634
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Last time I checked you need to be licensed to pack and ship Li-Ion batteries.
yea you're right, i just checked. its not a difficult license to obtain though. it's all managed by IATA and their regulations are pretty straightforward and are mostly available online. its really a matter of ensuring the battery isn't damaged and it can't short circuit (have to cover the leads with caps or non-conductive tape, or something like that)
 

djjohnr

Turbo Monkey
Apr 21, 2002
3,109
1,799
Northern California
This is really interesting, the article is well-written and worth a read in full. The author put a lot of emphasis on bike length vs the ability (or lack) to weight the front wheel effectively in corners to maximise exit speed.

Could it be that the longer reach/wheelbase trend delivers the most benefit to less skilled riders by artificially making the chassis more stable in a straight line? Obviously the grim donut worked for Barelli who is extremely skilled but perhaps that was more down to the nature of the test track. Would be interesting to see him test it on a variety of tracks.
A lot of this is probably down to personal preference/riding style. Jesse Melamed is on a medium Altitude at 5'7" with ~455 reach, and his teammate Remi Gauvin is on a bike with ~480 reach at 5'10", both seem to be on longer bikes. On opposite sides of the spectrum Pierron rides a large Commencal Supreme while Bruni is now riding medium equivalent Demos, even though they are about the same height.

From what I've experienced, assuming you have the bike balanced in terms of pressure on front/rear tires -

- A shorter bike requires less body movement to make shifts on the bike, while a longer bike will require more. The longer bike requires more input but I feel like I can vary force over a greater range.
- Shorter bikes corner faster in tight terrain, longer bikes carrie speed better in open corners (duh)
- Longer bikes are more of a handful when I'm tired
- While reach matters, wheelbase matters at least as much
 
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Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
20,059
10,623
AK
I've been a proponent of upsizing for the last 10-15 years or so when you are in-between, because the small gain in DH ability doesn't offset the 95% of riding where you aren't doing that and riding a cramped bike. But if I was doing EWS or DH racing, I'd consider going smaller when in-between. That's where the slight gain in DH ability would be worth it...just not worth it for the masses IME.
 

Toshi

butthole powerwashing evangelist
Oct 23, 2001
39,638
8,683
Maybe I could find someone licensed to pack and ship a Li-Ion in a city as big as Denver but that's 2 hours away and still a crap shoot.
In case you have to do this in the future here’s your outfit:


Not cheap.
 

Lelandjt

adorbs
Apr 4, 2008
2,636
997
Breckenridge, CO/Lahaina,HI
I've been a proponent of upsizing for the last 10-15 years or so when you are in-between, because the small gain in DH ability doesn't offset the 95% of riding where you aren't doing that and riding a cramped bike. But if I was doing EWS or DH racing, I'd consider going smaller when in-between. That's where the slight gain in DH ability would be worth it...just not worth it for the masses IME.
I used to go with upsizing, now with downsizing. Since reaches have gone up by a few sizes during that time the end result is I've gone from 445 to 470-475 and I recommend average height guys
In case you have to do this in the future here’s your outfit:


Not cheap.
Yeah, that's about what I figured. The only reason I'd have to do it is if another of my Sur-ron batteries needs warrantying. But I wouldn't, I'd just lie to the local UPS Store again.
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
88,634
26,881
media blackout
In case you have to do this in the future here’s your outfit:


Not cheap.
that's freight hazmat, which is a little different when it comes to regulatory requirements. UPS will ship them if they're packed appropriately. the good news is that most ebike batteries are li-ion not lithium metal (which is more regulated, UPS requires pre-approval).

pertinent info:



 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
20,059
10,623
AK
I used to go with upsizing, now with downsizing. Since reaches have gone up by a few sizes during that time the end result is I've gone from 445 to 470-475 and I recommend average height guys

Yeah, that's about what I figured. The only reason I'd have to do it is if another of my Sur-ron batteries needs warrantying. But I wouldn't, I'd just lie to the local UPS Store again.
It's definitely important to look at the actual numbers, that's gotta be your starting point, but people still end up in-between. The other aspect I worry about downsizing is structural, with too much seatpost exposed. I think this more depends on the exact bike and frame layout, for some it's not a concern, for others it could be.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
20,059
10,623
AK
that's freight hazmat, which is a little different when it comes to regulatory requirements. UPS will ship them if they're packed appropriately. the good news is that most ebike batteries are li-ion not lithium metal (which is more regulated, UPS requires pre-approval).

pertinent info:



Yeah, my knowledge is in aviation, where they ship hazmat all day long, some of it is restricted to "cargo-only" aircraft, but they sure as hell move it. You have to have a trained hazmat-accepter, which most UPS/Fed-Ex shipping locations should have...at least the actual locations, not the franchise chain store bullshit.

Also, many are using the term "lithium batteries" to include both lithium metal (disposable) batteries and Li-ion batteries, further dividing them after the initial term.

 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
88,634
26,881
media blackout
Yeah, my knowledge is in aviation, where they ship hazmat all day long, some of it is restricted to "cargo-only" aircraft, but they sure as hell move it. You have to have a trained hazmat-accepter, which most UPS/Fed-Ex shipping locations should have...at least the actual locations, not the franchise chain store bullshit.

Also, many are using the term "lithium batteries" to include both lithium metal (disposable) batteries and Li-ion batteries, further dividing them after the initial term.

yea, most fedex/UPS distro centers are far better equipped for these kinds of items and the ones you'll find in a strip mall.

i mean, its a fucking battery. its not like trying to ship cobalt 60.
 

Toshi

butthole powerwashing evangelist
Oct 23, 2001
39,638
8,683
that's freight hazmat, which is a little different when it comes to regulatory requirements. UPS will ship them if they're packed appropriately. the good news is that most ebike batteries are li-ion not lithium metal (which is more regulated, UPS requires pre-approval).
Ultimately FedEx was the carrier when I used this broker. But it had to be packed and have the paperwork by them. The UPS and FedEx local outlets wouldn’t touch it, even in the same compliant packaging it came in originally, replete with sand filled bag and all.

A similar Wh lithium battery from Shimano was shipped to my LBS in much less packaging, just with the sticker like consumer goods have when shipped to you, so go figure.

Edit: this was the actual UPS depot and FedEx place, not the FedEx Kinkos and UPS Store business.
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
88,634
26,881
media blackout
Ultimately FedEx was the carrier when I used this broker. But it had to be packed and have the paperwork by them. The UPS and FedEx local outlets wouldn’t touch it, even in the same compliant packaging it came in originally, replete with sand filled bag and all.

A similar Wh lithium battery from Shimano was shipped to my LBS in much less packaging, just with the sticker like consumer goods have when shipped to you, so go figure.

Edit: this was the actual UPS depot and FedEx place, not the FedEx Kinkos and UPS Store business.
as JM pointed out..... li-ion or li metal? they are subject to different regulations.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
20,059
10,623
AK
A similar Wh lithium battery from Shimano was shipped to my LBS in much less packaging, just with the sticker like consumer goods have when shipped to you, so go figure.
There's some crazy 747s from totally obscure cargo companies that come in here all the time. I imagine they must be loaded to the brim with lithium ion batteries...
 

Flo33

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2015
2,135
1,364
Styria
Back on sizing, Enduro MTB has an article where they ride race bikes from the pro. Here is some of that article:

"EWS professionals ride surprisingly short bikes – for good reason

The development of innovations always follows certain trends. Often the pendulum swings far in one direction only to level off somewhere in the middle. This seems to be the case with modern geometry. If you check out the race bikes on test, you'll probably be asking yourself how Richie Rude, who is 180 cm tall, can be so fast on a bike with a reach of only 460 mm. Jack Moir is 1.91 m tall and rides a size L Strive, which, due to the extremely tall cockpit, is guaranteed to have a reach under 460 mm. The mullet conversion on the GT Force Carbon that Martin Maes rides has also shrunk the bike down to less than 460 mm in length. The reason for this became clear during the course of our test. Not only did the shorter bikes record faster times, they also allowed our test riders to change direction more quickly and position themselves better before corners to carry their speed through them. On top of that, the agile handling of compact bikes is usually more fun. Anyone who thinks that these bikes aren't composed at high speeds can rest assured: handling stability is heavily determined by the suspension and all the bikes on test performed brilliantly in this regard.

Compact bikes are fast! For our 180 cm tall test riders, the medium Yeti performed better than the SB150 in L, which we reviewed previously. To prove our theory, we tested the Yeti and the COMMENCAL in both frame sizes. The smaller ones always came out on top.

Narrow handlebars are awesome!

Another trend that is swinging back is extra-wide handlebars. The professionals on the EWS circuit ride astoundingly narrow handlebars. The Renthal bar on the Yeti measures just 750 mm, the one on the Canyon is 765 mm wide and the Lapierre had a 755 mm model fitted. After taking a little while to accustom themselves to them, four of our five test riders found the narrow models better overall. They found them to offer more direct steering and increased freedom of movement, reducing tension on the bike with arms spread less wide. After the test, we ended up shortening the bars on our private bikes, starting at 770 mm. In any case, the fact is that 800 or 810 mm, as some manufacturers fit on their bikes these days, is too wide for most 180 cm tall riders.
"

I don't deny the benefits of longer bikes, it's just that there is an upper limit above which longer is not always better
Anybody saw the spreadsheet early in the mentioned article and took a look at the average weight at the bottom of it?
 

slimshady

¡Mira, una ardilla!
Anyone have a link to the article? I can't seem to find it on my phone.

It's not listed on the front page yet, as it was an app exclusive until very recently.
 

Flo33

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2015
2,135
1,364
Styria

It's not listed on the front page yet, as it was an app exclusive until very recently.
Hahahaha, I thought you took that part from the latest issue's endurpo race bike test.


Edit: hold a sec, you actually did, from the second part of it. Now I'm confused. The link you gave our Wiener Boy is a different one... :confused::D
 

ianjenn

Turbo Monkey
Sep 12, 2006
3,003
708
SLO
Did the even mention rider heights in that entire article? Granted I haven't attended an "ENDURO" race. Would rather get a prostate exam by a gorilla but I am 6' 1" and from the races, I have entered, covered, shot etc. I seem to be on the taller side of many racers. I think its a sport of the Hobbit.....
 

slimshady

¡Mira, una ardilla!
I seem to be on the taller side of many racers.
I was going to rebate you by stating not every country offsprings from Frankenstein :D, but then I decided to google around a bit. Turns out despite my factual evidence of two whole visits (???) to the US and the amount of people significantly taller than me (183cm, or 6') I found there, the US is at the 40th step in terms of male world height:


The animation here is pretty useful, as it allow you to compare several countries and the average height evolution from the dawns of 1800s.

.

and that's why the plural of anecdote isn't evidence, kids!

 
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sethimus

neu bizutch
Feb 5, 2006
5,317
2,414
not in Whistler anymore :/
Did the even mention rider heights in that entire article? Granted I haven't attended an "ENDURO" race. Would rather get a prostate exam by a gorilla but I am 6' 1" and from the races, I have entered, covered, shot etc. I seem to be on the taller side of many racers. I think its a sport of the Hobbit.....
cue in jack moir.

where is your god now?
 

ianjenn

Turbo Monkey
Sep 12, 2006
3,003
708
SLO
I was going to rebate you by stating not every country offsprings from Frankenstein :D, but then I decided to google around a bit. Turns out despite my factual evidence of two whole visits (???) to the US and the amount of people significantly taller than me (183cm, or 6') I found there, the US is at the 40th step in terms of male world height:

Yeah, 5'10" is AVG and I bet the average Champion like Nico-Hill-Gwinn maybe even shorter than the US average. Don't pull 1 random out that is 6'4" tall and claim look. That's like me saying Muggsy Bogues represents all NBA players. Wonder if a shorter rider has an advantage on bikes or motos overall?
 

Lelandjt

adorbs
Apr 4, 2008
2,636
997
Breckenridge, CO/Lahaina,HI
I was going to rebate you by stating not every country offsprings from Frankenstein :D, but then I decided to google around a bit. Turns out despite my factual evidence of two whole visits (???) to the US and the amount of people significantly taller than me (183cm, or 6') I found there, the US is at the 40th step in terms of male world height:


The animation here is pretty useful, as it allow you to compare several countries and the average height evolution from the dawns of 1800s.

.

and that's why the plural of anecdote isn't evidence, kids!

Average height is affected by the whole population. Enduro racers in the USA are almost all of European descent. That leaves out the taller Americans of African descent but also leaves out the shorter Americans of Asian and Hispanic descent. My bet is the average American male enduro racer is taller than the average American male. I love statistics.
I'm a hair under 6'2" and have moved from 445 to 470 reach. Every 490 reach bike I've tried felt too long.
 

Lelandjt

adorbs
Apr 4, 2008
2,636
997
Breckenridge, CO/Lahaina,HI
Wonder if a shorter rider has an advantage on bikes or motos overall?
Motos: From looking at who the champions are, short is good for MX, tall is good for trails.
MTB: Short is good in some places, tall is good in others. In the end it evens out. There are an equal number of successful short and tall gravity racers. In XC there are some tall guys who have achieved moderate success but most champions are shortish and that probably helps strength to weight ratio. My bet though is that even those shorter guys have a large femur length-to-total height ratio. That's the case with nearly every road champion.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
55,943
21,973
Sleazattle
I think another thing to consider is that taller athletic people are more likely to be successful and drawn to other sports where height makes a bigger difference. So being shorter might not make you a good bike rider, but it will reduce your chance bat being successful in football, basketball etc. Biking is far from the first choice for athletic Americans.

Lebron James or Rob Gronkowski could have been great DH riders, but that clearly wouldn't have been the best choice for them.