[Wilhelm]

Huge shame that the G-boxx2 is no longer available!
I have one here and am currently building a frame around it. This frame will be out of date before it's even finished Pity, as it is a split-pivot design and I know how much people on RM are looking forward to seeing one. It also is an Anti-Squat design (not PRO-squat as most g-boxx designs are).

I hope the g-boxx3 will be a huge leap forward but the only problem is that there is no release date forseen and it doesn't conform to the g-con standard . I know this because of an e-mail from Kalle Nicolai himself. He is apparently really busy with electric bike at the mo, so who knows when G-boxx3 will be out.

Nicolai said in the Wilhelm's link (via Google translator!) that Ion g-boxx2 demand outstripped manufacturing capabilities, seems a strange decision to stop production to me! Surely you would increase production (if possible) to match demand, not the opposite.

As for the Zerode, I met up with Rob Metz (the designer) when I was on holiday in NZ. The carbon trailbike he is riding is truely a thing of beauty .Looks even better in real life. As said before, manufacturing of a Alu version (DH and trail) is currently being being set up in the US.

According to a recent post of Karl in the German NICOLAI forum, the G-Boxx 3 will be retrofittable to all G-Con conform bikes. He hopes to go into series production with the G-Boxx 3 in fall 2011. Spare parts and services for the G-Boxx 2 will of course be ensured.

 

[dilzy]

Any specs on the Gboxx 3?

 

[Wilhelm]

Any specs on the Gboxx 3?

Unfortunately, not yet. The only facts Karl told about the G-Boxx 3 were that it would be a technological quantum jump over the G-Boxx 2 and that some "genes" would be inherited to the successor.

However, feel free to contact him by e-mail, phone (CALL: +49 (0) 5185-95 7191) or fax (FAX: +49 (0) 5185-95 7192) and keep us informed about any additional news.

 

[Wilhelm]

The electronics package is showing darn good reliability so far compared to the g1 protos apparently- I know he raced it at Fontana last weekend quite successfully. Obviously it isn't completely production ready.
I know here at Spooky we are really excited to work with him to build some production-oriented fuselages some time this fall after we have the SplitPivot external drive train bike into production. The fuselage is ready to go, from the solidworks models we've seen but Spooky needs to get caught up on more commercially viable projects before we start working on the really fun development projects. I would love if Colin could build some fresh proto framesets out there out of 6061 that we could heattreat and finish here in Mass- but a whole new set of machine parts is wicked expensive, as is new fixturing for his revised structural design.

-mickey
spooky bikes

Mickey, are there some news around your electronic shifting project in co-operation with HaveFaith?

 

[Wilhelm]

Not any news?

 

[Wilhelm]

Recently I found a year 2007 gearbox project by Kalle NICOLAI in co-operation with Christian GÜNTHER, student at the Technical University Chemnitz/Saxony, Germany (department of Mechatronic Propulsion Technology, chair: Prof. Dr.-Ing. Maik BERGER), where Kalle was one of the mentors.

 

[Wilhelm]

NICOLAI Nucleon E(volution)2 with G-Boxx 1, unfortunately without Horst link now.

 

[xy9ine]

interesting that they went back to the rohloff. the plethora of gboxx platforms seems a bit problematic - what are there currently? the 1, 2, upcoming 3 as well as the suntour (or did this one die - doesn't look like anyone is using them)? they really need to nail down a standard & ensure it's well supported - which is perhaps why they're using the rohloff rather then their in house guts.

 

[dilzy]

What the hell is wrong with these guys. If Rohloff would make a 9 or 7 speed, they'd sell a hell of a lot more. If there's one thing I need on a dh bike, it's 14 speeds.

 

[no skid marks]

Rohloff have made one, "it's in testing", has been for a couple of years now.
Did the Rohloff designer die, and they're just surviving of his great design, or what's the story.
I liked the way old high pivot Rohloff mounted Nicolai best, wish they'd work on that bad boy design again.

 

[Wilhelm]

interesting that they went back to the rohloff. the plethora of gboxx platforms seems a bit problematic - what are there currently? the 1, 2, upcoming 3 as well as the suntour (or did this one die - doesn't look like anyone is using them)? they really need to nail down a standard & ensure it's well supported - which is perhaps why they're using the rohloff rather then their in house guts.

Indeed, the situation is a little bit confusing and the G-Boxx market seems to be very, very small at the moment. Moreover, the only existing gearbox standard that was elaborated by Karlheinz NICOLAI, G-CON, will be given up. Obviously the production of the G-Boxx 2 was stopped because of their own costs exceeded the profits by far. So we have to be strong until the upgrade to v. 3.0 will be released in 2011 if not even later.

 

[Wilhelm]

What the hell is wrong with these guys. If Rohloff would make a 9 or 7 speed, they'd sell a hell of a lot more. If there's one thing I need on a dh bike, it's 14 speeds.

interesting that they went back to the rohloff. the plethora of gboxx platforms seems a bit problematic - what are there currently? the 1, 2, upcoming 3 as well as the suntour (or did this one die - doesn't look like anyone is using them)? they really need to nail down a standard & ensure it's well supported - which is perhaps why they're using the rohloff rather then their in house guts.

Bernhard ROHLOFF and his stuff seem indeed to tackle the project of an all-new "light weight" gearhub. Because it should not be possible easily to lighten the old one by simple tuning they are designing the new one from the scratch up. More over, Bernhard told that he is anticipating that the big industry leaders will come out into the market with their own new high performance gearhubs no later than his related patents will expire in a couple of years. Otherwise he and his guys stay tight-lipped when they are asked about the release date of the "light weight" gearhub.

From the viewpoint of Bernhard the market potential of high performance gearhubs with DH specific gearing seems to remain way too small than that it would be profitable to design, build and sell them.

 

[dilzy]

Bernhard ROHLOFF and his stuff seem indeed to tackle the project of an all-new "light weight" gearhub. Because it should not be possible easily to lighten the old one by simple tuning they are designing the new one from the scratch up. More over, Bernhard told that he is anticipating that the big industry leaders will come out into the market with their own new high performance gearhubs no later than his related patents will expire in a couple of years. Otherwise he and his guys stay tight-lipped when they are asked about the release date of the "light weight" gearhub.

From the viewpoint of Bernhard the market potential of high performance gearhubs with DH specific gearing seems to remain way too small than that it would be profitable to design, build and sell them.

Myself and nearly every person I know runs 1x9 setups on their xc bikes usually with 11-34 cassettes and 32-34 fronts. There is and never was a need for the gear range that is on the Rohloff.

 

[LMC]

edit... just seen Wilhelms post and it has answered my speculation about the lightweight speedhub

 

[joelsman]

the alfine 11 looks nice. personally I want more range than a 11-34 cassette but I don't need as much as a 3x9. 2x9 has a nice range for AM stuff and re-geared to be higher would be fine for dh/fr also. we have some sustained steep climbs around here, need lower gears.

 

[dilzy]

330% then? That would cover just over an 11-36. Need one that is frame mounted to reduce the unsprung weight, then you can run a fixed gear uber light rear dish-less hub.

 

[Wilhelm]

Hello again,

an all-new gearbox was designed by two Stuttgart, Germany guys (yeah it´s DAIMLER-BENZ and PORSCHE town!) and will be released at Eurobike 2010 in Friedrichshafen, Germany this week (booth A2-113, same booth as ENDORFIN).

PINION P-1 (unfortunately, the website is in German only, so far):

Some specs in short:

• 18 gears without any gear overlapping
• two-shaft gearbox type with two sets of spur gears (6, 3)
• sequential shifting mode
• no idling possible for security reasons (there is always one pair of spur gears engaged)
• permits gear upshift under full load, downshift under partial load as well as shifting in standstill
• OSG gearwheel technology (what ever this should matter) permits a top-notch efficiency
• consistent gear increments of 11,5 %
• gear range unbelievable 634 % (!)
• MTBO 60,000 km maintenance-free
• very compact construction
• complete encapsulated
• Q-factor 178 mm
• sensational weight of barely under 2.5 kilograms (!)
• patent pending.

The two guys Christoph LERMEN and Michael SCHMITZ are former working students of the PORSCHE R&D Center*. They designed the gearbox from the scratch up since 2006 and established their own company PINION GmbH (= Incorporated) in Stuttgart, district of Feuerbach (= Fire Creek). Prototypes were made by ENDORFIN.

The PINION P-1 should be available from springtime 2011.

Cheers




* BTW, nice vid "PORSCHE R&D Center"

 

[Wilhelm]

For all you prone mechanical engineers:

The Patent specification

• 
  
  [*]http://depatisnet.dpma.de/DepatisNet/depatisnet?action=pdf&docid=DE102008064514A1
  [*]http://depatisnet.dpma.de/DepatisNet/depatisnet?window=1&space=main&content=treffer&action=textpdf&docid=DE102008064514A1​

 

[xy9ine]

neat solution using a conventionally positioned output cog; much more accommodating of a variety of suspension designs. be great to do a high pivot w/ idler - lower cg than the ~pivot height gearhub platforms.

of course, this is obviously geared towards full range gearing bikes rather than gravity sleds...

good to see development from new parties though - i'm a firm believer that high end offroad bike transmissions (not unlike motos or cars) should last the lifespan of the bike w/o replacement or significant maintenance.

 

[joelsman]

that would be really nice to do a jackshaft or high pulley set up, like the BB7 or jedi.

 

[no skid marks]

That'd be really nice in any bike.
I wonder if gear could be removed to lighten it for a DH only box.
Small output chainring for groundclearance also(looks like 24teeth). Sweeet.

 

[Vrock]

Ohhhhhhhhhh my gooooooooood!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Wilhelm]

...
[*]permits gear upshift under full load, downshift under partial load as well as shifting in standstill

The two guys Christoph LERMEN and Michael SCHMITZ are former working students of the PORSCHE R&D Center ...

To consider in mind that the two smart inventors previously were working for PORSCHE R&D and the PINION "coincidentally" permits shifting under load, one could speculate if they did´nt install a gadget like this in their gearbox:

​

Moreover, by means of a PINION box with a PDK as well as with a damn good trained sportsman one could someday achieve a high performance launch like it is demonstrated in this video:

​

 

[dilzy]

Surely that weight can't include cranks? That's a phenomenal achievement for that many gears, I'd just wish they'd dropped 8 of them.

Price??

 

[Wilhelm]

Don´t know any price declaration so far. I will post any news in this respect that becomes acquainted during the Friedrichshafen bike show this week or thereafter.

 

[Wilhelm]

Addendum:

According to an article in the German weekly journal "Der Spiegel" (= The Mirror) 35-2010 that was published today and is discussed in a German forum "Uhrwerk am Tretlager" (= Clockwork in the Bottom Bracket) the price is expected to surpass the one of a ROHLOFF SpeedHub 500/14 slightly.

 

[Vrock]

Addendum:

According to an article in the German weekly journal "Der Spiegel" (= The Mirror) 35-2010 that was published today and is discussed in a German forum "Uhrwerk am Tretlager" (= Clockwork in the Bottom Bracket) the price is expected to surpass the one of a ROHLOFF SpeedHub 500/14 slightly.

I need the mounting standar now XD, the price looks to be reasonable.

 

[no skid marks]

Price isn't too big a concern to me, think of the money saved in components(mech/cassette) over the life of the gearbox, and resale value. Used Rohloffs still fetch a high $.
I'd love two of these, one in a trail bike, and one in a DH bike(hopefully with less gears).

 

[dilzy]

Well your looking at $800-$1000 for a high end drive train, so double that to $2000 and I'd pay that. You can also then use a fixed lightweight cheap rear hub.

 

[fluider]

These are great news Wilhelm! I'm very interested in riding experiences of test riders (and not only in German magazines). Spec. looks very interesting but 178mm of Q-factor may be quite a lot for usuall several hours trail-enduro riding.

 

[Wilhelm]

Back to the NICOLAI agenda:

• official weight declaration of the "Nucleon AM" (size M, anodized, exclusive shock): 8.72 kg
  
• official weight declaration of the "Nucleon E2" (size M, anodized, exclusive shock): 8.80 kg

 

[monkeyfcuker]

Wilhelm, loving your posts! Keep 'em coming. Gearbox tech is defo the future in my eyes!

 

[xy9ine]

damn, those nicolais are weighty - esp. the am considering it's intended use. assuming 'exclusive shock' means weight w/o, you'd be looking at about a 42lb build on the e2 using light parts, maybe 39lbs on the am. neat pieces of engineering, but a tough sell - esp. at that pricepoint.

point of comparison - the lahar frameset (with same included parts - rohloff, cranks, front chain, hub, as well as floating brake) is 4lbs lighter. the gboxx must be a leaden thing.

 

[Wilhelm]

damn, those nicolais are weighty - esp. the am considering it's intended use. assuming 'exclusive shock' means weight w/o, you'd be looking at about a 42lb build on the e2 using light parts, maybe 39lbs on the am. neat pieces of engineering, but a tough sell - esp. at that pricepoint.

point of comparison - the lahar frameset (with same included parts - rohloff, cranks, front chain, hub, as well as floating brake) is 4lbs lighter. the gboxx must be a leaden thing.

Indeed, "exclusive" means "w/o".

Weights of NICOLAI gearboxes are indeed tremendous:

G-Boxx 2, 4.48 kg.

Weight of G-Boxx 1 exceeds that of G-Boxx 2 by 800 g!

 

[xy9ine]

^wow. makes the weight of the pinion gearbox seem that much more impressive.

granted, the gboxx does incorporate the suspension pivot. still...

 

[CBJ]

Will the pinion have any positive effect on suspension design and frame design vs. Gboxx?

 

[xy9ine]

Will the pinion have any positive effect on suspension design and frame design vs. Gboxx?

not dictating the main pivot point (and allowing 4 bar variations) i think is the main advantage. like all gearboxes, having the ability to design the suspension with a fixed chain torque position is a big plus as well.

 

[Vrock]

Will the pinion have any positive effect on suspension design and frame design vs. Gboxx?

The positive effects are HUGE. The pivot can't be concentric, so everyboby is forced to use a chain tensioner and a standar suspension layup. Yes, when you see the pinion the first idea is to use a high pivot with a Jackshaft or and Idler but that is not how all the bikes are going to be. I think most of them will have a standar setup: FSR and VPP...

 

[CBJ]

The dream of the perfect gear box bike can continue.

 

[fluider]

... Yes, when you see the pinion the first idea is to use a high pivot with a Jackshaft or and Idler but that is not how all the bikes are going to be. I think most of them will have a standar setup: FSR and VPP...

Designing a linkage for desired anti-squat/pedal-kickback combination will be easier with single chainline possible, but IMO an idler asks to be used here.