[no skid marks]

^ yea it would, just depends on the location of the main pivot.

But the pivot is forced to be where it is on this bike, hence my point, no need to start a split pivot debate that is irrelevant to the bike discussed.

Correct on braking effects, but a horst link has a negligable effect on axle path. In this case both the horst and the single pivot will have initially rearward paths due to the placement of the main pivot. What the horst link DOES do is move the virtual pivot point up and back which will give it some more anti-squat (which it may or may not need....)

and more rearward travel. The lower the Horst link the greater the chainstay will grow, the more rearward travel. As you mentioned, the higher the virtual pivot, the more rearward the rear wheel moves.

 

[TrueScotsman]

There are details of a hombuilt Titanium G-boxx bike now on Descent-World:
http://www.descent-world.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&Itemid=130&task=view&id=1055

What d'ya think?

 

[Trekrules]

OMG that is amazing

 

[sethimus]

zomg its from the future...

 

[Wilhelm]

Nice ride. BTW, Alan HAWKES has already a reference entry in Kalle´s g-boxx list (http://www.g-boxx.com/d-reference.html).

The rest of the pics:

 

[Wilhelm]

The linkage design looks a little like a ROCKY MOUNTAIN RM6/7, RMX. It was already proposed by Kalle (http://www.g-boxx.org/06-faq.html#9).

 

[Wilhelm]

To see the new NICOLAI tech sheets and manuals file under: http://whyexfiles.dbap.de/Public/NICOLAI/manuals/.

Wilhelm

 

[Wilhelm]

Sweet new pic of a NICOLAI Ion G-Boxx2 proto with Horst-Link and new race geometry (source: AttitudeBikes http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=5737800&postcount=1):

 

[iRider]

Now that you can use FSR together with a gearbox, Specialized will sooooooo jump on the bandwagon and build Sam one. Sam will win races on it, all the fanboys want one and gearbox bikes will take over the gravity market!
Extremely nice bike, looks like they settled for a really low Horst link position.

 

[no skid marks]

Sweet new pic of a NICOLAI Ion G-Boxx2 proto with Horst-Link and new race geometry (source: AttitudeBikes http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?p=5737800&postcount=1):

That looks rad.
Although the mega shock ramping link has me a bit concerned.

 

[monkeyfcuker]

That looks rad.
Although the mega shock ramping link has me a bit concerned.

Please explain why for the e-tard


Really like the look of that thing tho, shame it will be double the price of a standard frame!

 

[no skid marks]

Please explain why for the e-tard


Really like the look of that thing tho, shame it will be double the price of a standard frame!

The small link that pushes the shock in, is at a very sharp angle in relation to the shock. To me this appears it will put a lot of load on the shock(friction/wear), and make the ramping up less progressive than if the link was at a right angle to the shock shaft at bottom out. Look at a pic of the early demos, compared to the newer ones, they had a shady looking(to me)shock/lever angle also.
It's not that big a deal, just doesn't look right to me.
Possibly the low Horst link makes the travel ramp up(I just woke up, someone else can figure that out).
EDIT:-Having looked at the pic again, I noticed it has a shock shuttle at the front, so the front of the shock could be lifted to make it more progressive, and probably lower BB, slacken HA.

 

[monkeyfcuker]

Thanks for taking the time to explain mate, much appreciated.

 

[Wilhelm]

Ladies and gentlemen, frais de France (cyril_88):

Cool Karl .

 

[Total Heckler]

So pretty.

 

[xy9ine]

horst link gearbox. cool to see a linkage variation. nicely executed. i'll take one.

 

[jeremy_2640]

Looks pretty sweet!...but how about making/finishing a trigger shifter! Haven been waiting for ages....

 

[frango]

What's the weight?

 

[Wilhelm]

What's the weight?

According to cyril_88 the total weight of the built bike(s) is 20.2 kg.

 

[fluider]

Does Nicolai use custom rear hub for their G-Boxx frames or are there any available for single-cog through-axle disc brake configuration ?
This one seems to be customized ...

 

[Wilhelm]

Does Nicolai use custom rear hub for their G-Boxx frames or are there any available for single-cog through-axle disc brake configuration ?
This one seems to be customized ...

It looks rather like a sort of chain guide nearby the right hub flange to me than a custom-made rear hub. One argument of NICOLAI in favour of changing from the left-hand side chain drive of the G-Boxx1 bikes with the custom-made three-part compound COR* hub (patended by NICOLAI) back to the more usual right-hand side chaindrive of the G-Boxx2 was the capability of the latter to use standard rear hubs (150 mm spacing) resp. standard rear wheels. The hub configuration for both types of the G-Boxx is thrue-axle, six-bolt disc brake mount, single cog without free wheel (because there is a free wheel mechanism in the gearbox).

COR hub of the G-Boxx1 (see also http://www.g-boxx.org/06-faq.html)

 

[fluider]

Yes I meant the silver plate by the cog that looks like a chain guide. No free-wheel in the hub? Isn't it interrupting to have the chain permanently rotating ?

 

[xy9ine]

According to cyril_88 the total weight of the built bike(s) is 20.2 kg.

still weighty beasts, alas. nicolai's gearboxes are so stuffed full of sexy teutonic engineering sexyness - unfortunately tankish weights in conjunction with absolutely stratospheric pricing places viability in question. if nothing else, karl has refined the design significantly over the years - we just need to see an alternative manufacturer with better manufacturing economies (ie, taiwan built) run with it.

 

[Wilhelm]

Yes I meant the silver plate by the cog that looks like a chain guide. No free-wheel in the hub? Isn't it interrupting to have the chain permanently rotating ?

The no-freewheel rear hub is part of Karl´s philosophy of gearbox concept (for further reading file under http://www.g-boxx.org) with emphasis on low unsprung mass of the rear suspension.

 

[Wilhelm]

still weighty beasts, alas. nicolai's gearboxes are so stuffed full of sexy teutonic engineering sexyness - unfortunately tankish weights in conjunction with absolutely stratospheric pricing places viability in question. if nothing else, karl has refined the design significantly over the years - we just need to see an alternative manufacturer with better manufacturing economies (ie, taiwan built) run with it.

I agree, although it seems to be very difficult to realize, just when you simply look at the tremendous problems that SR SUNTOUR seems to have bringing a reliable version of the X-OFF V-BOXX to the market (you surely know that the V-Boxx was developed by Karl and subsequently licensed to SR SUNTOUR).

 

[rbx]

Same size sprockets behave like shaft drive and your main pivot becomes crucial
the g-boxx main pivot is not high enough.

The future is elsewhere...

 

[TrueScotsman]

Same size sprockets behave like shaft drive and your main pivot becomes crucial
the g-boxx main pivot is not high enough.

The future is elsewhere...

The g-boxx2 does not use same size sprockets front and rear (24t front and 13t-15t rear IIRC)
I agree that main pivot is crucial, but g-boxx does not claim that you have to use the concentric pivot as the MAIN pivot.
It is possible to design a system that uses linkages to move the IC to wherever you want to give an ideal anti-squat value. (believe me, I hope to have 3D proof of this soon)

Don't give up on the g-boxx2 just yet;-)

 

[Gridds]

Same size sprockets behave like shaft drive and your main pivot becomes crucial
the g-boxx main pivot is not high enough.

That doesn't really matter with the Horst link included though, does it?

 

[jonKranked]

The g-boxx2 does not use same size sprockets front and rear (24t front and 13t-15t rear IIRC)
I agree that main pivot is crucial, but g-boxx does not claim that you have to use the concentric pivot as the MAIN pivot.
It is possible to design a system that uses linkages to move the IC to wherever you want to give an ideal anti-squat value. (believe me, I hope to have 3D proof of this soon)

Don't give up on the g-boxx2 just yet;-)

This is certainly true, but I still feel that it limits suspension design by forcing a linkage pivot to be concentric with the main output cog of your transmission.

 

[rbx]

heres the trick:

If you design your suspension with same sprockets as i said before chainline becomes irrelevant and you calulate the anti-squat from the rear tire contact point up thru the main pivot.

So now the height of the main pivot becomes crucial and the 91mm of g-boxx2 is not enough to have what i consider enough anti-squat(but quantity of anti-squat is up for debate).

So with the main pivot high enough you can obtain high anti-squat values with zero pedal-feedback.....now a add rear split-pivot type and you have very active suspension under braking. In my opinion you would be at the top of the food chain.

Yes you combine multi-pivot with g-boxx(i.e horst -link) but you would have to add a chain tensioner you would get chain-growth pedal feedback,kind of negates the advantages of g-boxx..(agin IMHO)

But thats one designer point of view...3D are the works

 

[xy9ine]

I agree, although it seems to be very difficult to realize, just when you simply look at the tremendous problems that SR SUNTOUR seems to have bringing a reliable version of the X-OFF V-BOXX to the market (you surely know that the V-Boxx was developed by Karl and subsequently licensed to SR SUNTOUR).

alas, it's been an rather unsuccessful system to date. has a g-boxx (of any variation) been used on any other production bike other than nicolai? there's been a bunch of protos from a variety of euro manufacturers, but i haven't seen evidence of production units. the diamondback sabbath looked promising, but there doesn't seem to be any out there.

though the g-boxx platform is well developed in terms of attempting to develop a standardized format that could be adapted by a variety of manufacturers, i still think it (currently) suffers from several issues that limit it's acceptance:

-heavy. the suntour assembly is ~10lbs. a huge weight penalty is a hard sell.
-proprietary cranks. parts such as these that are commonly damaged should be standard spec. people also demand a larger range of crank choices (length / strength / weight).
-twist shifter. i actually like my rohloff twister, but for many people it's a significant detractor.
-suspension platform limitation of a fixed crank to output distance & large box configuration. a big one. current suspension platforms are highly refined (and a huge part of the marketing identity of a bike); unlikely a manufacturer will be willing to make compromises to adapt to an arbitrary gearbox configuration.

i'm still of the opinion that the best configuration currently out is that of the inboard mounted gearhub (as used by gt, lahar, and now zerode). uses standard, widely available gearhubs, allows use of standard cranks, enables a range of crank to output positioning options, and can be built relatively light. it's a simple, yet effective system. looking forward to seeing if zerode can make a go of it - i'm still a huge fan of the gearbox concept, but new development seems to have fizzled as of late.

 

[TrueScotsman]

heres the trick:

If you design your suspension with same sprockets as i said before chainline becomes irrelevant and you calulate the anti-squat from the rear tire contact point up thru the main pivot.

So now the height of the main pivot becomes crucial and the 91mm of g-boxx2 is not enough to have what i consider enough anti-squat(but quantity of anti-squat is up for debate).

So with the main pivot high enough you can obtain high anti-squat values with zero pedal-feedback.....now a add rear split-pivot type and you have very active suspension under braking. In my opinion you would be at the top of the food chain.

Yes you combine multi-pivot with g-boxx(i.e horst -link) but you would have to add a chain tensioner you would get chain-growth pedal feedback,kind of negates the advantages of g-boxx..(agin IMHO)

But thats one designer point of view...3D are the works

Sorry, but I disagree. If you have same size sprockets front and rear the chainline does NOT become irrelevant. The IC of the chainline and swingarm is at Infinity, therefore, the Anti-squat foce line is calculated as PARALLEL to these lines (through the rear tyre contact point)
If you were to mount the main pivot high enough to provide 100% anti-squat at sag, it would have to be around 360mm above the BB (according to my measurements)- too high to be practicable.

What would be good is a gearbox with geared-up ratios so that you could have a smaller front sprocket than rear. This way you could have a concentric pivot with the required anti-squat values.

Also, whose to say a linkage system around a g-boxx2 would need a tensioner

 

[fluider]

Sorry, but I disagree. If you have same size sprockets front and rear the chainline does NOT become irrelevant. The IC of the chainline and swingarm is at Infinity, therefore, the Anti-squat foce line is calculated as PARALLEL to these lines (through the rear tyre contact point)

 

[rbx]

Chainline being parellel to the swing arm line, its moment about the main pivot becomes nil because the vector force passes thru the main pivot.
In consequence you're left only with the contact point of the rear tire and thus you analyse the system as if it was a shaft driven vehicule.

 

[TrueScotsman]

Chainline being parellel to the swing arm line, its moment about the main pivot becomes nil because the vector force passes thru the main pivot.
In consequence you're left only with the contact point of the rear tire and thus you analyse the system as if it was a shaft driven vehicule.

This model forgets about the load tranfer due to acceleration. The bike and rider have a mass which under acceleration (pedalling) is transferred rearwards. This causes the suspension to squat. To avoid this you need the chain force to counteract this squat. This is why 100% anti-squat relies on IC of both the chain force and swingarm AND the height of the COM of both bike and rider.

 

[HaveFaith]

Alright, so all the science above does weigh on my mind when working with designing around the gboxx platform. BUT, the real question that matters is not where the IC lies, or the % anti-squat of the design. The real question is whether it is fast as hell through the rocks, and ridiculously quick changing directions? My answer, after building frame #4 is yes...

Tested in Mammoth, headed to the UK for a bit more testing. Stay tuned for more!

Oh and I know you were wondering.....42lbs

 

[Wilhelm]

Two interesting newer interviews with Karl:

Singletrack mountain bike magazine Five minutes with: Kalle Nicolai… January 13th, 2010

Five minutes of your time with Kalle Nicolai by Marcus Farley and Karen Hewitt.

The man himself, Kalle Nicolai

German Über Designer extraordinaire, Kalle Nicolai, talks to Singletrack about his recent and near future product developments. He also gives his views on the merits of handmade design as well as that old chestnut, the function vs form debate.


You’ve had a busy year with bikes and design, what were the highlghts for you…?

That’s a difficult question to answer. At Nicolai, we don’t feel the need to make changes for each product year, rather we make changes only when we have something genuinely new to release. A good example is the Helius AC – It has filled the gap in our range for the modern trail rider who wants the ‘one bike to-do-it all.’ Someone who wants more than the Helius CC but less than the Helius AM, but with the best bits of each thrown in. With its 120mm, 133mm and 146mm rear suspension options coupled with an adjustable fork upto 150mm, it also makes economic sense in our credit crunch times. I believe it will be well suited to your UK terrain.

Another highlight was working on the Grace e-motorbike project www.grace.de I am pleased that we are able to build the frames, not only because it means involvement in such a great product but also because it has been fun to stretch ourselves beyond our usual remits.

What’s in the pipeline?

There are many interesting new projects in the pipeline. For example, we are working hard on a more lightweight G-BOXX-3 with trigger shifters, and we would would love to finish this in April 2010 in order for our racers to have the ability to test it in the 2010 season. Although the B-Boxx (Nicolai’s rival to the Hammerschmidt – Ed) is progressing well in trials, we have not found the right investor yet to set it towards production. Everybody is talking about the credit crunch, which has made this task harder. But, I am hopeful we will find the right partner eventually.

Welds and gussets. Nicolai trademarks.

The powdercoat bay


Handmade design vs mass production, why should we buy your bikes?

I would argue that our products offer a longer lifetime based on true craftsmanship. We offer 5 years warranty, even under racing conditions, and install “extra love” in all of our parts. I also believe our carbon footprint is less as we tool, machine and paint in-house.

Of course, handmade design can be more expensive, but I think it is better to spend less on your car and more on your bike! Seriously, though, I believe that here at Nicolai we build bikes that will still be relevant in many years time, rather than just be the latest fad. I was lucky enough to be part of the team under Horst Leitner who came up with the legendary suspension system and, in my mind, I have perfected it on frames that are capable of lasting in relevance and longevity.

Nicolai were (along with Orange) one of the first companies to adopt the Gates Carbon belt drive system on some of their bikes.

This is where those big fishscale welds come from

First G-Boxx, now here's Nicolai's new G-Clamp design.


Bicycles help us reduce our carbon footprints, how carbon neutral are your production facilities?

As mentioned above, we produce all parts in-house. As a result, for the European customer at least, we avoid contributing to long ocean freight. We also use state of the art CNC machines that run on low power consumption. Our frames are designed to be long term durable, and as they are aluminium, the frames, and any wastage from manufacturing, are easy to recycle compared to carbon!

Air filters in the paint shop

Testing machines and natty T-shirts. Who wants to work there?


Looking back on your career so far, which was your most innovative design?

Like I said, I was very fortunate to be part of the team that was involved under Horst Leitner. But, since running Nicolai, I think that the G-BOXX (see www.g-boxx.com and www.g-boxx.org) has been my most innovative design so far. I am immensely proud of it, and continue to strive to make it better and better.


What was the coolest product you saw at Interbike/Eurobike?

A long time ago, a guy called Stijn Deferm raced downhill on Nicolai bikes. He has now started his own brand and I was very pleased to see what he has come up with.
Stijn Bicycles


Function vs form, discuss?

Ha, that is an interesting question for sure, that could take up a whole interview on its own, yes! My starting point is with Sullivan, the 19th Century architect who famously said that “Form follows function.” It is a statement that I have battled with internally and externally since I started my own bicycle and design businesses. From a purely engineering background, the form of the object is nothing if the physics of it do not stop it from falling apart! But from a design perspective, I believe that form is in every detail of the function. Put simply, what for me is aesthetically beautiful is also what is physically engineered to tolerate its given application. We apply our moniker of “Extra Love” to all of our parts and frames, and I believe it is an expression that perfectly encompasses my belief that our engineering is intended to be beautifully delivered. As a result, i believe that Form and Function are not opposite cases, it is more that they balance each other like heart and soul.


How much riding do you get to do a week? And any plans to come over to the UK any time soon?

Unfortunately I don’t get enough ride time, only 2 hours on Sundays. In regards to the UK, I have no schedule yet for 2010. Mike and Simon, the guys from Nicolai UK, are doing a good job (www.nicolai-uk.com) and it would be good to come across to the UK to catch up with our friends and the Nicolai owners there. I like to ride all over Europe, and count some of the riding I have done in the UK as amongst the best.




Electric Revolution, Distilled Mag, Nicolai Interview, posted December 10, 2009

If we take in consideration Karl´s outstanding interest in electric solutions for bikes, I think we can hope to see an electric shifting version of the all-new G-Boxx3 not too far after its unveilling in March 2010 in the NICOLAI "Nucleon AM".

Are there some news with HaveFaith´s electric G-Boxx2 shifting project?

 

[SuspectDevice]

Are there some news with HaveFaith´s electric G-Boxx2 shifting project?

The electronics package is showing darn good reliability so far compared to the g1 protos apparently- I know he raced it at Fontana last weekend quite successfully. Obviously it isn't completely production ready.
I know here at Spooky we are really excited to work with him to build some production-oriented fuselages some time this fall after we have the SplitPivot external drive train bike into production. The fuselage is ready to go, from the solidworks models we've seen but Spooky needs to get caught up on more commercially viable projects before we start working on the really fun development projects. I would love if Colin could build some fresh proto framesets out there out of 6061 that we could heattreat and finish here in Mass- but a whole new set of machine parts is wicked expensive, as is new fixturing for his revised structural design.

-mickey
spooky bikes

 

[Wilhelm]

Thank you for the reply. Great to hear so much promising good news. So, may be you will have your electric shifting system ready even before Karl has his own. The SplitPivot solution seems to be very appealing for the gearbox rear suspension, and you will be the very first who realizes such an exciting combined system. Will you go with CarbonDrive in this G-Boxx bike model, too?

 

[Wilhelm]

According to a recently posted e-mail from NICOLAI resp. UNIVERSAL TRANSMISSIONS in the NICOLAI manufacturer´s forum at the German IBC (www.mtb-news.de) the G-Boxx 2 as well as the Ion G-Boxx 2 were discontinued so far. May be that they will continue the works on the G-Boxx 3 but neither informations about technical details nor a schedule for presentation were given. At Eurobike 2010 they will come out with an all-new "Nucleon E2" which should combine the G-Boxx 1 (!) with the geometry of the "Ion". Moreover, the G-Boxx trigger shifter project unfortunately is on hold, too.