[Toshi]

That's great. We did the same and even found a place where our kids can walk to all schools (k-12) and sports fields (though I admit the kids angle is more for my sanity than the greater good).

Those are easy changes though.

those are the "easy changes" that the hordes that commute 20, 40, 60 miles daily are not adopting. why? (apathy? ) because suckling off the teat of cheap gas enables their behavior.

choosing the dingy house in town over the mcmansion "only" 20 miles away is a tough choice, but people (speaking generally here) seem to just not get it.

 

[BAH]

Toshi- I think you came on a little arrogantly and that may be what people are reacting to, but I tend to agree with most of what you've said. It would be nice if more people started being a little more conservative when it comes to gas and most of the lower income folks probably are, just because now they are being forced to. It's a tough situation, no doubt about it and a lot of people are going to suffer when the prices skyrocket. It's still not affecting most people with the big suv's though. We have neighbors that will drive big rigs to neighborhood association meetings that are 7 houses down.

I also chose to live in a place where I would be close enough to bike to anything that we needed on a daily basis. I also was fortunate enough to have that choice.

There's a lot of waste in this country, absolutely no doubt about it. We are used to just doing whatever, whenever. I think that if people simply lived beneath their means, it would solve a lot of problems. Is it going to happen? No. Who is to blame? I believe it's advertising. Everywhere we look, we have to have more, more, more. Some of the adverts out there are just plain sickening to listen to, but people are buying it. People max themselves both physically, mentally and financially to have the best/keep up with the joneses/get the girl. It keeps going on and on and on. We have neighbors that make very good money, but spend every single penny because they want the best of everything. They both work about 15 hours a day to can't stop, because they owe. Miserable. I don't think there is any way to stop all of this. We aren't having kids and a big part of our decision is that I think in our lifetime, there will be some major stuff hitting the fan.

 

[SkaredShtles]

Pipe dream. Once they find the mother lode of oil we'll be back to $1.50/gal gas. And *then* watch the world heat up...

 

[Transcend]

Pipe dream. Once they find the mother lode of oil we'll be back to $1.50/gal gas. And *then* watch the world heat up...

They just did, off the coast of brazil. Of course, it will cost an absolute fortune to get out of the ground...as will every new discovery of oil.

Oil will not be going back down. Ever. The market can sustain it, so why should they arrange to drop it? OPEC will never allow it.

 

[SkaredShtles]

<snip> it is my firm belief that economic pressure is the only force that will cause any meaningful change in the way that americans live. anyone disagree with that?

Can't disagree with that...

 

[SkaredShtles]

<snip>
Oil will not be going back down. Ever. The market can sustain it, so why should they arrange to drop it? OPEC will never allow it.

Wanna bet some bacon on that?

 

[SkaredShtles]

i already do that. you and Jeremy rightly pointed out the ways in which i personally fail to live up to my ideal, but i chose to live in a neighborhood that isn't all flashy and exciting (no nightlife to speak of besides the local sleepy bar), but lets me walk to the post office, the grocery store, the barber, the bank, the local thai and chinese joints...

Holy $hit! You live in my neighborhood?

 

[Spero]

Wanna bet some bacon on that?

...and I think we're on the same page as to the reasoning.

 

[Red Rabbit]

i hope gas is $20/gallon before 2020, ideally by 2012.

discuss.

did you hear of laissez faire before last month? might i suggest some ayn rand after you finish up adam smith.

Ayn Rand is overrated.

just because you didn't get the point: i'm not suggesting $16 in gas taxes to be applied.

No, I never suggested that you meant a tax. But since we moved to that subject, didn’t Hilllzilla want to do just that?

. i'm just hoping that the MARKET will hurry up on its way to inevitable $20/gallon prices.

Are YOU FVCKING KIDDING ME? Do you understand the kind of inflation it would take to produce those results by 2012?

Were you dropped as a child?

If this was to happen by 2012 it would mean one or a few of following things will happen.

A: Ben Bernanke would have to lower the reserve rate even more & he would buy back gov’t securities. Creating a massive inflation not seen since Germany lost the first world war.

B: America no longer exits as we know it.

C. The Countries that make up OPEC decide to fvck over their best customer

D. We go to war with Iran

And a few others.

Why would you wish this on the Nation?

Think about this. If it cost me 10 bucks in gas a day to get to work & I make 30k a year what would happen if gas prices jumped to 20 dollars? Hmm. It would mean I wouldn’t be able to afford to live. I wouldn’t be able to afford to get to my job!!

Do you have any Idea how many people would be poverty stricken by this Idea?

I am tired of explaining color to the blind.

 

[blue]

Think about this. If it cost me 10 bucks in gas a day to get to work & I make 30k a year what would happen if gas prices jumped to 20 dollars? Hmm. It would mean I wouldn’t be able to afford to live. I wouldn’t be able to afford to get to my job!!

Apply to health insurance.

Voila! Free market solves all!

 

[skinny mike]

Are YOU FVCKING KIDDING ME? Do you understand the kind of inflation it would take to produce those results by 2012?

you must not be familiar with the term "supply and demand." we have a finite amount of oil left currently and at the rate india and china are expanding oil is going to be in high demand in the coming years.

 

[Red Rabbit]

Apply to health insurance.

Voila! Free market solves all!

You can afford health insurance on 30k a year. The receptionists at my work does and she makes less than 25k a year.

 

[Red Rabbit]

you must not be familiar with the term "supply and demand." we have a finite amount of oil left currently and at the rate india and china are expanding oil is going to be in high demand in the coming years.

Not by 2012, our reserves are not nearly as tapped out as Opec would like you to believe. Plenty of beer in the keg.

 

[skinny mike]

Not by 2012, our reserves are not nearly as tapped out as Opec would like you to believe. Plenty of beer in the keg.

current estimates are that we have about 45 years left of oil at the current rate at which we are using it.

to give you an idea of how quickly china is expanding, they are building coal power plants at a rate of about one per week. while our oil supplies will hopefully not be gone by 2012, they could be very low by that point if china keeps expanding like it is.

 

[Spero]

current estimates are that we have about 45 years left of oil at the current rate at which we are using it.

May I ask where that comes from?

 

[blue]

You can afford health insurance on 30k a year. The receptionists at my work does and she makes less than 25k a year.

uhmuhumuhuhm...

charts, you apologists (and study groups, coincidentally) love charts:

The cost of health insurance policy is going up 10% per year&#8230;the average family health insurance plan in New Hampshire increased from $7,525 in 2000 to $11,156 in 2004 [a 48% increase]. A one-person plan went from $2,790 to an average of $4,084 in 2004 [a 46% increase]. Two-person coverage cost $8,495 in 2004.

 

[mantispf2000]

i hope gas is $20/gallon before 2020, ideally by 2012.

discuss.

Did you pick these years because that's what Nostradamus and the Mayans predict will be the end of the world???

 

[Red Rabbit]

Like you said, coal. diffeerent that the crap we put in our cars.

Much of china cannot afford cars. Why? Because the standard of living is much lower than that of the US.

Alaska, problem temporarily solved.

I agree a change will happen, but wishing 20 a gallon by twentytwelve will crush this nation.

Prices will rise, fine. Do not go about wishing on this bullsh!t. It will be bad enough when it happens by 2100

 

[Red Rabbit]

http://www.medi-cal.ca.gov/

Kids covered.

Healthcare is completely unrelated to the argument at hand.

 

[blue]

Alaska, problem temporarily solved.

Didn't you learn the first time around to stay out of sh!t like this? Do we really need to wait for H8R to get on tomorrow morning? Just put down the gun, son, it'll all be okay...

 

[Red Rabbit]

All my arguments amount to one thing $20 per gallon by 2012 = end of life as we currently know & love it.

 

[black noise]

The funny thing about this thread is that $20/gal gas is not hypothetical, it is something that will happen in our lifetimes. Oil is finite. The prices have tripled since I was in 3rd grade.

And to anyone saying it's unrealistic, face the fact that our reality in America, our wealth and opulence, is based on a system of overexploitation and overconsumption and it won't last. The system ultimately will have to change to accommodate oil being very expensive.

 

[Red Rabbit]

who is that?

 

[blue]

All my arguments amount to one thing $20 per gallon by 2012 = end of life as we currently know & love it.

What's wrong with that? Chaos in the streets, people killing each other over a loaf of bread, social darwinism at its best! C'mon man, lassez-faire! Free market! Get with it!

who is that?

Andrew Bogut. Aussie.

http://www.medi-cal.ca.gov/

Kids covered.

Healthcare is completely unrelated to the argument at hand.

Well, you decided to bring in the "invisible hand" and all its glory.

 

[manimal]

although your avatar has a santa hat, which i approve of, i probably don't approve of you so i'm fine with your sentiment.

you will not be invited to live on toshi-island once i form it in the days of the post-apocalyptic wasteland.

more seriously, why are you opposed to the concept of $20/gal gas?

you're island dreams will have to compete with my militia formed in the NC mountains when it hits the fan. we'll be competing for resources and i'll send my cronies to your island to pillage, rape and steal....but don't worry, we won't take your pachouli

 

[skinny mike]

Like you said, coal. diffeerent that the crap we put in our cars.

Much of china cannot afford cars. Why? Because the standard of living is much lower than that of the US.

the power plant example was just to give you an idea of the rate of growth over there. are you familiar with what's even happening over in china? the economy is growing very rapidly(at an annual rate of 9-11%), i wouldn't be surprised if many people start buying cars over there as they can afford them.

 

[SilentJ]

those are the "easy changes" that the hordes that commute 20, 40, 60 miles daily are not adopting. why? (apathy? ) because suckling off the teat of cheap gas enables their behavior.

choosing the dingy house in town over the mcmansion "only" 20 miles away is a tough choice, but people (speaking generally here) seem to just not get it.

So, the average vacancy rates in town here are hovering around 1-2%. The vacancy rate within 5 miles of the core is between 0.25% and 0.5%. The dingy houses in that area run anywhere from $200k-500k more that what I can sell my current house for...I guess I'm just being apathetic, though.

Where do you propose the 50 or so million people that live in rural america go when their farms are no longer sustainable?

 

[Red Rabbit]

What's wrong with that? Chaos in the streets, people killing each other over a loaf of bread, social darwinism at its best! C'mon man, lassez-faire! Free market! Get with it!



Andrew Bogut. Aussie.

Wow... so done arguing with you.

"Have you no decency sir?"

 

[blue]

Where do you propose the 50 or so million people that live in rural america go when their farms are no longer sustainable?

Density. Or you can be a hunter-gatherer irate2:

 

[Red Rabbit]

the power plant example was just to give you an idea of the rate of growth over there. are you familiar with what's even happening over in china? the economy is growing very rapidly(at an annual rate of 9-11%), i wouldn't be surprised if many people start buying cars over there as they can afford them.

Yes, fine.

Not by 2012.

 

[skinny mike]

Yes, fine.

Not by 2012.

my guess is that stuff is going to start increasing exponentially. much like the way the northern ice cap began to melt at an exponential rate this past summer(a section the size of florida melted in a week). no one expected it to melt that fast.

so i wouldn't assume anything.

 

[manimal]

uhmuhumuhuhm...

charts, you apologists (and study groups, coincidentally) love charts:

how to fix the health insurance problem:

Kill Every Lawyer!


if it weren't for those pricks doctors wouldn't charge ridiculous fees to cover their malpractice insurance and so on........

 

[Spero]

Density. Or you can be a hunter-gatherer irate2:

 

[Red Rabbit]

Health care is fvcked.

We can't change it over night. When Hilary is elected she will get the foot in the door.

 

[Spero]

Health care is fvcked.

We can't change it over night. When Hilary is elected she will get the foot in the door.

Of asheedubbultoofpik

 

[skinny mike]

We can't change it over night. When Hilary is elected she will get the foot in the door.

when i was taking a bus back up to school on sunday, i overheard some guy from arkansas say that when hillary gets elected she's just going to go over to iraq, flash her titties, and end the war.

 

[Red Rabbit]

Of a sheedubbultoofpik

come again?

 

[Transcend]

the power plant example was just to give you an idea of the rate of growth over there. are you familiar with what's even happening over in china? the economy is growing very rapidly(at an annual rate of 9-11%), i wouldn't be surprised if many people start buying cars over there as they can afford them.

The economist says, you are correct sir.

In 2002 demand for cars in China soared by 56%, far more than even the rosiest projections. The next year growth quickened to 75%, before slowing in 2004 (when the government tightened rules on credit for car purchases) to around 15%. But in a sluggish global market, China's demand remains mesmerising. Few expect this year's growth to dip below 10%. As long as the economy goes on galloping at its current high-single-digit clip, many expect car sales to increase by 10-20% annually for several years to come.…

Currently there is only about 18 cars per thousand people in china. It is closer to 600 in the US. Of course, China's economy is booming and there is many more people in China than the us.

population china: 1,321,851,888
population usa: 301,139,947

China will surpass the US before 2012 as the worlds largest automobile market.

 

[blue]

how to fix the health insurance problem:

Kill Every Lawyer!


if it weren't for those pricks doctors wouldn't charge ridiculous fees to cover their malpractice insurance and so on........

Wrong. Take the money out of the equation altogether, and nationalize the hospital system. You're buying into the "I'm a blue collar guy and this is what I should believe" crap.

The fact that healthcare is so expensive right now has little to do with malpractice and more to do with monopolization, marketing, and greed.

We could start fixing by euthanizing every healthcare industry CEO. Those dudes kill a lot of people.

 

[Red Rabbit]

when i was taking a bus back up to school on sunday, i overheard some guy from arkansas say that when hillary gets elected she's just going to go over to iraq, flash her titties, and end the war.

keep an eye on that guy, he's a smart one.

Since when did you start riding on the short bus?