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Gasp! Secret CIA Jails!

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
9,914
14
Hypernormality
Who'd have thought it? :eek: :rolleyes: Nice one Rummy + CIA! Now everyone has a reason to hate America even more!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1607426,00.html

East Europe 'has secret CIA jails for al-Qaida'

Jamie Wilson in Washington and Ian Traynor in Zagreb
Thursday November 3, 2005
The Guardian


The CIA has been interrogating al-Qaida prisoners at a Soviet era compound in eastern Europe as part of a covert jail system set up after the September 11 attacks, according to the Washington Post. The secret facility is part of a network of "black sites" spanning eight countries, the existence and locations of which are known only to a handful of US officials and usually only the president and a few top intelligence officers in the host countries.

The internment network has also been kept almost entirely secret from the US Congress, which is charged with overseeing the CIA's covert actions, the newspaper said.

The CIA refused to comment on the allegations yesterday, but human rights groups demanded an urgent inquiry. "We've long been concerned that the USA could be running a totally secret network of 'war on terror' prisons and these claims need to be urgently investigated," an Amnesty International spokesman said.

Citing several former and current US intelligence and other officials, the Post said the CIA was holding the top 30 al-Qaida suspects at the secret facilities, where they were kept in dark, sometimes underground, cells in isolation from the outside world. They have no recognised legal rights, and no one outside the CIA is allowed to talk with them or see them.

The covert prison system was set up nearly four years ago in eight countries, including a facility in Thailand that was closed down after its existence was made public in 2003.

Concerns over the CIA's handling of prisoners escalated last week after it emerged that the US vice-president, Dick Cheney, and the agency's director, Porter Goss, asked Congress to exempt the agency from legislation banning the cruel and degrading treatment of prisoners.(Classy! - C.) CIA agents have long been accused of playing a role in the prisoner abuse scandals at Abu Ghraib in Iraq and Guantánamo Bay on Cuba.

It is illegal for the American government to hold prisoners in such isolation in the US, which is why the CIA placed them overseas. But sources told the Post that the process has caused considerable internal debate within the agency, where there is concern about the legality, morality and practicality of the system.

While the Post declined to identify the countries in eastern Europe on security grounds, and governments in the region refused to comment, analysts pointed to the feverish competition among the east Europeans to host new US military bases.

The region's new Nato members, particularly Poland, Romania and Bulgaria, have been among Washington's staunchest allies in the campaigns in Iraq and Afghanistan, heightening speculation that they would be the likeliest venues for the secret jails. Romania and Bulgaria made military facilities available to the Americans for the Afghan and Iraq wars. The Pentagon is planning to dispatch 5,000 servicemen to a string of new bases in the two countries from next year.

In the run-up to the Iraq war the US also used a former Soviet airbase at Taszar in southern Hungary to train Iraqi exiles for police and military duties, although the scheme was quickly abandoned.

Legal experts and intelligence officials told the Post that the CIA's internment practices would also be illegal under the laws of several of the host countries, which have signed the UN convention against torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment and punishment.

The Post said it did not publish the names of the countries involved at the request of US officials, who claimed the disclosure might make them targets of terrorist retaliation.
D'Oh! You can see why they don't bother calling themselves the 'secret service'... If you're going to have secret illegal jails, it's best if you can actually keep them secret! :oink:
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
38,930
5,615
Sleazattle
Jails are for people who are convicted of crimes. The CIA is just kidnapping people and forgetting to ask for ransom.
 

reflux

Turbo Monkey
Mar 18, 2002
4,622
2
G14 Classified
Co'mon you guys, don't you think they asked permission from God before they started kidnapping random people?


"Co'mon God, please....pretty please...with sugar on top... I'll be your best friend"
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
10,408
455
chez moi
Well, what's interesting is that the neocon platform is generally [overtly] anti-tyrannical, yet I never see neoconservatives arguing vehemently against this stuff. Odd because the neocons have strongly leftist roots. (Basically left-wing but pro-American thinkers who were left out in the cold in the 70s by the mating of left-wing politics to an inherently anti-American stance, and were alienated by the right's Realpolitik and/or isolationist strains. I don't buy the 'Leo Strauss' connection, because it's not really there, nor did Strauss in anything I can find ever advocate the demagoguery [via the example of Plato's 'Noble Lie'] of which he's so often associated.)

Chris Hitchens, a leftist I REALLY respect (if not always like) who has supported the Iraq war (and who wrote all the great stuff on how Kissinger should go down for war crimes for supporting right-wing torture-tyrannies) has been notably silent on this to my great disappointment.

My personal take is that frankly, I accept and understand that there's a 'black' world in which normal niceties do not apply, and that all nations are party to it, and the powerful and predatory win in this area. It's where the law of the jungle rules and the winner is the guy who's alive at the end of the day. But when this world starts being exposed to the light, something's wrong. It may be outgrowing its habitat...

MD
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,672
0
Feeling the lag
N8 said:
Leaking this to the press is not as serious as the non-outing of a non-covert CIA agent????

I don't think so.
What does one have to do with the other N8?

You didn't finish your second sentence btw.
 

Reactor

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2005
3,978
1
Chandler, AZ, USA
N8 said:
Leaking this to the press is not as serious as the non-outing of a non-covert CIA agent????

I don't think so.

There is a big difference between a "whistle blower" telling the American public their Government is doing something illegal and morally reprehensible and an administration trying to strongarm it's critics.
 

DRB

unemployed bum
Oct 24, 2002
15,243
0
Watchin' you. Writing it all down.
Reactor said:
There is a big difference between a "whistle blower" telling the American public their Government is doing something illegal and morally reprehensible and an administration trying to strongarm it's critics.
What an absolute load of crap.

What if a soldier decided to tell the world that a coming operation was illegal and morally reprehenisble? Or if someone with the Australian government decided that the recent arrests were illegal and morally reprehensible and leaked it to the newspapers prior to them being made?

You don't even know who the whistle blower is or why they did what they did.
 

kidwoo

Celebrating No-Pants Day
Aug 25, 2003
24,318
3,364
In my pants
DRB said:
You don't even know ................why they did what they did.

I can't possibly think of a reason. Why would anyone anywhere have a problem with secret prisons operating in likely violation of pretty much everything the US claims to stand for?

They must hate freedom.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,846
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Orange County, CA
DRB said:
What if a soldier decided to tell the world that a coming operation was illegal and morally reprehenisble? Or if someone with the Australian government decided that the recent arrests were illegal and morally reprehensible and leaked it to the newspapers prior to them being made?
It depends. If the operation was illegal and morally reprehensible, I'd applaud the guy.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,846
0
Orange County, CA
DRB said:
What if you didn't find it that way but others did?
Torturing people in black holes...I don't care who thinks it is moral. It's not a gray area. There were (and still are) people who thought the gulag was a swell idea, or that the cultural revolution was a great thing. That doesn't make it so.

Why is it bad when Saddam was doing it, but not now? Because we are better? **** that...when you start torturing people, your claim to being better doesn't have any weight. Just because there is someone worse than you doesn't mean that you aren't a reprehensible human being.
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,672
0
Feeling the lag
DRB said:
What if you didn't find it that way but others did?
Given what the USA is supposed to stand for, and its founding principles, any US citizen who doesn't find this particular accusation morally reprehensible should be ashamed.

If you're talking at a conceptual level then you have a fair point.
 

kidwoo

Celebrating No-Pants Day
Aug 25, 2003
24,318
3,364
In my pants
DRB said:
Okay, left N8.
Substance lacking jabs are more n8 than anyting I've posted.

And I'm not married to any one side of the isle, posting other people's opinions in a noticible void of my own. But having severe problems with the current faux conservatives running things right now doesn't make me left.

Try again.

And try not to be a dick.
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
9,914
14
Hypernormality
DRB said:
What an absolute load of crap.

What if a soldier decided to tell the world that a coming operation was illegal and morally reprehenisble? Or if someone with the Australian government decided that the recent arrests were illegal and morally reprehensible and leaked it to the newspapers prior to them being made?

You don't even know who the whistle blower is or why they did what they did.
I thought us Libs were supposed to be the moral relativists?
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,007
149
The Cleft of Venus
Frist, Hastert Consider Prison Center Leak Probe
AP | Tuesday, Nov. 8, 2005

WASHINGTON -- Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist and House Speaker Dennis Hastert are circulating a letter calling for a congressional leak investigation into the disclosure of secret U.S. interrogation centers abroad.

The Washington Post reported Nov. 2 on the existence of secret U.S. prisons in Eastern Europe for terrorism suspects. The Bush administration has neither confirmed nor denied that report.

"If accurate, such an egregious disclosure could have long-term and far-reaching damaging and dangerous consequences, and will imperil our efforts to protect the American people and our homeland from terrorist attacks," stated the letter, which Hastert's office said the House speaker had signed. There was no immediate word on whether Frist had given it his signature.

The Associated Press obtained a copy of the draft request to Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman Pat Roberts of Kansas and his House counterpart, Intelligence Committee Chairman Peter Hoekstra of Michigan.

Hoekstra's spokesman, Jamal Ware, declined to comment because the office had not yet received the letter.

The letter said a joint probe by the House and Senate intelligence committees should determine who leaked the information and under what authority.

"What is the actual and potential damage done to the national security of the United States and our partners in the global war on terror?" the letter asked. "We will consider other changes to this mandate based on your recommendations."

House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi said Republican leaders should also investigate possible manipulation of prewar intelligence on Iraq and the disclosure of covert CIA officer Valerie Plame's identity.

"If Speaker Hastert and Majority Leader Frist are finally ready to join Democrats' demands for an investigation of possible abuses of classified information, they must direct the House and Senate Intelligence Committees to investigate all aspects of that issue," said Pelosi.

The letter says the leaking of classified information by employees of the U.S. government appears to have increased in recent years, "establishing a dangerous trend that, if not addressed swiftly and firmly, likely will worsen."

"We are hopeful that you will be able to accomplish this task in a bipartisan manner given general agreement that intelligence matters should not be politicized," it added.

The Post story of a week ago said that the CIA has been hiding and interrogating some of its most important al-Qaida captives at a Soviet-era compound in Eastern Europe, as part of a covert prison system set up by the agency four years ago that at various times has included sites in eight countries. The eight, said the story, include several democracies in eastern Europe.
 

DRB

unemployed bum
Oct 24, 2002
15,243
0
Watchin' you. Writing it all down.
Changleen said:
I thought us Libs were supposed to be the moral relativists?
Its the whole black white and grey thing again. Seriously, in the end it is all relative (which I hate). Someone was able to justify this in their own minds.

I don't like the idea of secret jails and torture. I find it troubling beyond belief.

My problem is that leaks of secret materials annoy the living hell out of me. Because it becomes one person's definition of moral and right that gets to make the determination. Then we apply the title "whistleblower" on them it makes it okay. At some point, you may not like what happens as it might be a diverging definition of moral and right and what them strung up.

I simply don't see anything wrong with someone wanting to know who told and why.

I do not like the double standard that Hasert and Frist are obviously applying to this vs. the Plame leak but I'm not surprised either.

Again its the whole concept of grey that bugs me.
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
9,914
14
Hypernormality
DRB said:
Its the whole black white and grey thing again. Seriously, in the end it is all relative (which I hate). Someone was able to justify this in their own minds.

Again its the whole concept of grey that bugs me.
:think:

DRB said:
I don't like the idea of secret jails and torture. I find it troubling beyond belief.

My problem is that leaks of secret materials annoy the living hell out of me. Because it becomes one person's definition of moral and right that gets to make the determination. Then we apply the title "whistleblower" on them it makes it okay. At some point, you may not like what happens as it might be a diverging definition of moral and right and what them strung up.

I simply don't see anything wrong with someone wanting to know who told and why.

I do not like the double standard that Hasert and Frist are obviously applying to this vs. the Plame leak but I'm not surprised either.
I think it is preferable for people to know the truth about the actions taken on their behalf, especially ones that are so utterly illegal and morally reprehensible. It's OK to have state secrets like the location of your submarine fleet, or the speed of your armoured response, or the latest materials and engineering development, but to be a state that acts as the US does and then in reality to behave in this manner is hypocritical in the extreme. As you've basically said, you are not too happy this was done in your name, so isn't it a good thing that the leak was able to occur? Or would you rather live in ignorance? The administration sure as hell prefers that you do.
 

Reactor

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2005
3,978
1
Chandler, AZ, USA
DRB said:
What an absolute load of crap.

What if a soldier decided to tell the world that a coming operation was illegal and morally reprehensible? Or if someone with the Australian government decided that the recent arrests were illegal and morally reprehensible and leaked it to the newspapers prior to them being made?

You don't even know who the whistle blower is or why they did what they did.

Freedom costs a buck o five. Yeah.


A soldier who didn't attempt to stop an action that was illegal and morally reprehensible would be executing an illegal order and subject to punishment under the UCMJ, and various civilian laws. Just ask the heros at Abu Gharib, I understand most of them are serving time right now.

You know running an illegal prison system, in other countries, probably without their permission, without due process or representation is a complete and total perversion of what America should stand for. Further more it violates the very principles laid out in the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Wait, it's O.K. because they aren't Americans......can you say double standard??

You can debate the definition of Whistle-blower all you want... but the fact remains in your heart you know it's wrong. I don't know nor do I care about the motivations of the leaker, IF the CIA is running a covert prison system in other countries, they are wrong and need to be stopped.