[bullcrew]

Do we see slacked Enduro bikes taking over all but the most extreme stuff for the added travel DH rigs?

Should DH bikes get more rear travel to separate them from current Enduro?

Do we even really need DH bikes anymore?

We can take a DH38 and lower it to a 180 and beef the front ends up..

With the DH geo on some Enduro rigs with rearward travel , high pivot and idler they close the gap even more!

There's places I ride that I'll literally only rock a DH sled.. but they are so few and far in-between its almost not worth it to have one anymore...So I was looking at my slash gen 6, nomad v6 and v10.8 the numbers are damn close the nomad is slightly longer and with the front end getting 10mm more on slash and nomad theyvare close on head angle.

Main difference is 170mm travel vs 208.. aside of seat angle everything else is about the same...

I like having a DH bike when I need it, I am always glad it's hanging there ..I do like a dual crown fork for added stability,.

Had some down time and I have always thought DH should stay around the 220mm , then pinkbike had that travel article and it just got me back on track to looking at the numbers on my bikes and others.

 

[Jm_]

Just give us back the goddamn dual crowns.

 

[bullcrew]

Just give us back the goddamn dual crowns.

I do prefer a dual crown on the nasty stuff, makes me feel a little less worried about powering through stuff .

It just seems with weights now going back up 36-39 Enduro 38-42 DH they overlap even more now...they are all playing in the same arena.

I know more travel and how it's used for bigger hits versus smaller but when you make a bike that's rearwards high pivot and you give it DH geo, a good tuned and balanced bike at 170/180mm closes the gap of 200mm

 

[UnusualBread]

I'm personally going down that rabbit hole after getting back from Whistler/Northstar while running a mezzer at 180mm. While I can't fault the damper/spring I couldn't help but imagine a stiffer chassis and massive bushing overlap would be sweet.

Went with the infinity en, only had half a ride on it (went down and still nursing bruised rib) but the reduction in friction/bushing overlap benefits where immediately apparent to the point that I think it's going to need a adjustment period after so many years of being used to some level of bushing bind/friction when on the brakes and hitting stuff.

Infinity en and formula belva are both dual crowns that weight about the same as a 38 so I say why not on an enduro bike. And then to your point, once you have a 180mm bike with solid geo, that leaves DH just for folks actively DH racing.

I also feel that the heavy dampening/normal spring rate philosophy (ohlins/ext/et al.) mitigates the downsides of having a lot of travel. I find that my bike is still responsive and has grip off the top since the damper provides support/ability to weight tires even off the top of the stroke (I run a lot of dampening, had both EXT and manitou retuned for more damping). Applies to my enduro bike and I think the same would apply to DH bikes with 220+ mm of travel.

 

[toodles]

Purely my perspective, and I'm basically full enduro these days - but yeah DH bikes still kick ass for a no-compromise, more durable option. Dual crown forks alone make a wild difference in how bikes feel (and last), plus ditching the dropper, wide cassette and whatnot that you need for enduro just saves on the maintenance and weight.

Obviously not everyone has the space or finances to run both, but if you can - go for it.

 

[Lelandjt]

Despite having a few 170mm enduro bikes, they've always been a little compromised toward being trail bikes: Not super slack, smaller brakes, handlebar height kept in check, saddle didn't go as low as my DH bike, under 31lbs. Because of this I've always felt so much more comfortable on my DH bike for really steep trails or big jumps. I'm about to build my burliest enduro bike that won't have any of those previous "trail" compromises, so I'll be curious if I think it can replace my DH bike, at least for trips.

 

[Happymtb.fr]

Dual crown forks alone make a wild difference in how bikes feel

This! Much less steer tube flex. I put a dual crown fork on my enduro bike and use it at bikeparks

saddle didn't go as low as my DH bike

I don't get the need for slammed down saddle... I don't slam it on my bikepark bike and 150mm of drop on my trail bike feels like enough.

 

[SuspectDevice]

enduro is dead.
Why would anyone actually want a bike that sucks for everything except dh, if they could just piece together a dh/park bike instead?

 

[Leafy]

I'm kind of leaning this way. 170-180 travel bike with a dual crown and having two wheel builds one with a dh drivetrain for when I got to a park that doesn't require pedaling and one with a dinner plate for the occasional rowdy pedal spot and parks that do require pedaling. If someone would just make a bike like this with a damn gearbox I wouldnt have to worry about the drivetrain swap since it would solve the unsprung weight and long ass derailleur issue that would make me want to switch between the two.

 

[jonKranked]

Do we even really need DH bikes anymore?

 

[Leafy]

I think I should add too that almost all the new DH bikes have fully gone to race insprired geometry with super long chain stays while at the same time adding the mullet option. If you're going to put a 27.5 wheel back there get me some of that 420mm chainstay action.

 

[Gary]

I'm kind of leaning this way. 170-180 travel bike with a dual crown and having two wheel builds one with a dh drivetrain for when I got to a park that doesn't require pedaling and one with a dinner plate for the occasional rowdy pedal spot and parks that do require pedaling. If someone would just make a bike like this with a damn gearbox I wouldnt have to worry about the drivetrain swap since it would solve the unsprung weight and long ass derailleur issue that would make me want to switch between the two.

Zerode.
Rear hub configuration is pretty far from standard tho if you're going to be running 2 wheelsets.

 

[Lelandjt]

This! Much less steer tube flex. I put a dual crown fork on my enduro bike and use it at bikeparks

I don't get the need for slammed down saddle... I don't slam it on my bikepark bike and 150mm of drop on my trail bike feels like enough.

It's probably as a percentage of leg length. My legs are really long. My DH bike's seat is at the minimum height that I can pedal seated. Any higher and I bump into it sometimes when jumping. The 210 dropper on my current Ransom results in the saddle being a couple cm higher than that so at bike parks I wish it would go a little lower. The new Ransom is getting a 240 post.

 

[Leafy]

Zerode.
Rear hub configuration is pretty far from standard tho if you're going to be running 2 wheelsets.

well if it’s got a gear box I wouldn’t want to run different wheels.

If they redid the taiwanda mullet enduro with another 10mm of travel +30mm of reach, -7 in CS, -10 in st, and 5* steeper on the st angle I’d consider it.

 

[Jm_]

It's probably as a percentage of leg length. My legs are really long. My DH bike's seat is at the minimum height that I can pedal seated. Any higher and I bump into it sometimes when jumping. The 210 dropper on my current Ransom results in the saddle being a couple cm higher than that so at bike parks I wish it would go a little lower. The new Ransom is getting a 240 post.

You don't think you need more, until you try more, but as a function of making you faster and more able to conquer terrain, I think there's a point where it's diminishing returns. I had a friend put in her transfer SL for service recently and switch it out with a 125 and she was concerned it would be "too much", I said, nope, you ain't going to want to go back after you use that. A problem with 29ers is getting over/behind the rear wheel, where a big dropper helps...but ultimately you get sidelined by that wheel at times. It's simply enough for a park day just to move your saddle down an inch or whatever too, rather than chasing the ultimate drop length, which puts more flex in the system and wear and tear. I think I'm more on the "flat foot" test, can I lower to get my feet flat on the ground with it dropped.

 

[Kanye West]

The point of a DH bike is to have pitch and bounce frequencies balanced between front and rear, which for most any vehicle means a lower natural frequency in the rear suspension than the front (that means more travel in the rear).

This whole trend of less rear travel than front travel in mtb's, across all classes of bikes, is stupid. They never ride well.

Fork travel on DH bikes is somewhat optimized around how much force a rider can sustain to bottom out the suspension without blowing themselves up completely. Nobody is going to hold onto a 10in travel fork for multiple full-travel events.

Then you have the question of "just how far are you willing to accept a 29in rubber buzzsaw flinging itself upwards at your taint during your leisure activity?". For most people, the answer is: to a separation distance > 0.

 

[Gary]

well if it’s got a gear box I wouldn’t want to run different wheels.

If they redid the taiwanda mullet enduro with another 10mm of travel +30mm of reach, -7 in CS, -10 in st, and 5* steeper on the st angle I’d consider it.

We've helped a local Zerode supported influencer build the Enduro and DH frames. But TBH I didn't even look at the geometry. Iooking at it on paper I actually like that it's not super long reach and doesn't have a modern super steep seat angle. But know a few tall riders who (now) all of a sudden can't ride anything with massive reach and a stupidly steep seat angle.
What's your reasoning for wanting shorter than 437mm chainstays?

 

[Gary]

This whole trend of less rear travel than front travel in mtb's, across all classes of bikes, is stupid. They never ride well.

"Trend"? What? like skateboarding?

Yeah. it'll never catch on

 

[Leafy]

We've helped a local Zerode supported influencer build the Enduro and DH frames. But TBH I didn't even look at the geometry. Iooking at it on paper I actually like that it's not super long reach and doesn't have a modern super steep seat angle. But know a few tall riders who (now) all of a sudden can't ride anything with massive reach and a stupidly steep seat angle.
What's your reasoning for wanting shorter than 437mm chainstays?

I’m in the long torso and arms short leg category. If all the sizes had the same length seat tube I’d ride a large. But I like the steeper seat tube to go with the longer reach so the effective top tube isn’t silly long, and it works well with a dropper.
I want the short chain stays because I bike for fun not to win races.

 

[Jm_]

The point of a DH bike is to have pitch and bounce frequencies balanced between front and rear, which for most any vehicle means a lower natural frequency in the rear suspension than the front (that means more travel in the rear).

This whole trend of less rear travel than front travel in mtb's, across all classes of bikes, is stupid. They never ride well.

Fork travel on DH bikes is somewhat optimized around how much force a rider can sustain to bottom out the suspension without blowing themselves up completely. Nobody is going to hold onto a 10in travel fork for multiple full-travel events.

Then you have the question of "just how far are you willing to accept a 29in rubber buzzsaw flinging itself upwards at your taint during your leisure activity?". For most people, the answer is: to a separation distance > 0.

I thought the point of a DH bike was to ride DH?

 

[Gary]

I want the short chain stays because I bike for fun not to win races.

Yeah. me too but I honestly find it's extended reach that makes bikes less fun. Way more than long chainstays do. Not that I'd consider 437mm particularly long for a longer travel FS mtb.
I'm just under 6ft and don't have short legs but anything over 490mm reach becomes a chore to pop for me. But anything below 445mm stays are absolutely fine for pop and manuals. infact longer stays definitely make long mannies far calmer.

 

[schwaaa31]

I’m a big fan of having the right tool for the right job. I’ll personally never be without a full on DH bike.

 

[bullcrew]

I

I’m a big fan of having the right tool for the right job. I’ll personally never be without a full on DH bike.

I think that too

when we go up north I was bringing smaller bike to ride with wife I end up beating the crap out of my lessor bike on full blown DH trails (cause a resort finds a way of getting into last minute ride plans) ..so this year my lessor bikes are capable of ripping it up and balanced front and rear...
There's a few trails now doubt my big bike comes out for and more than just foam knee and full face protection...
I think I'm taking the slash north this year and hit tamarack, there's 2 trails I'd like to see how the slash handles...I'll bring more gear this year...

 

[daisycutter]

When I go to Killington, I bring my DH bike and enduro rig. Since I ride for a few days per trip I like to switch back and forth depending on the trails I ride. Having the option of DH bike is great on rougher trails and it's great when you are tired and you need to monster truck through stuff. That said it's nice being on a jump trail with the 35-pound Enduro bike versus my 40-pound plus DH bike.

 

[bullcrew]

Was looking at the weights of pros bikes and it's on par with that 38lb target I'm stuck on hitting ...I think Enduro and DH are both suited to a good solid 37-40 lb range and be solid...


Chainstay lengths
451mm Santa Cruz nomad XXL
450mm Santa Cruz v-10.8 xl
453mm Slash gen 6 xl

All my head tube angles are 62.5-63 on them...slash and nomad are 180mm vs 170 on front and all 3 are mullet...

Wheel bases are 52/53 on all 3

 

[jrewing]

The point of a DH bike is to have pitch and bounce frequencies balanced between front and rear, which for most any vehicle means a lower natural frequency in the rear suspension than the front (that means more travel in the rear).

This whole trend of less rear travel than front travel in mtb's, across all classes of bikes, is stupid. They never ride well.

Fork travel on DH bikes is somewhat optimized around how much force a rider can sustain to bottom out the suspension without blowing themselves up completely. Nobody is going to hold onto a 10in travel fork for multiple full-travel events.

Then you have the question of "just how far are you willing to accept a 29in rubber buzzsaw flinging itself upwards at your taint during your leisure activity?". For most people, the answer is: to a separation distance > 0.

My new 29 Dh bike gets me bang on the tickle at maximum stretch. Just enough of a kiss that is distracting, uncomfortable and inappropriate. I have wondered how the ladies go with such a situation.
I prefer a DH bike. And aim to ride the chunkier stuff. With a choice to pedal around to the top or push up. Ill push up. And it’s actually quicker to push/hike up v riding, and you get to clear the track firstly. Luckily where i live a DH bike is still a viable option.

 

[jstuhlman]

not reading all the replies...but having just watched us national race and seeing the things that the top riders do to bikes...and seeing some lower tier riders trying to do the same things on enduro bikes (which have been my "dh" bikes for going on 20 years)...there's no comparison.

 

[schwaaa31]

not reading all the replies...but having just watched us national race and seeing the things that the top riders do to bikes...and seeing some lower tier riders trying to do the same things on enduro bikes (which have been my "dh" bikes for going on 20 years)...there's no comparison.

Who ended up winning?

 

[bullcrew]

Who ended up winning?

I'm going to say the one who didn't lose!!

 

[HardtailHack]

enduro is dead.
Why would anyone actually want a bike that sucks for everything except dh, if they could just piece together a dh/park bike instead?

Yup, a hardtail and a DH bike is all you need.

 

[Lelandjt]

It's simply enough for a park day just to move your saddle down an inch or whatever too, rather than chasing the ultimate drop length.

I strongly considered using a 210 post on the new Ransom and moving it down in the frame for park days, as I've done on my past 3 enduro bikes. I decided to go with the 240 to see what it's like and as part of my "weight doesn't matter much on this build, lets make it a no compromise DH bike."

 

[jstuhlman]

Who ended up winning?

someone on a dh bike! (asa)

 

[mykel]

Kinda funny.
For years, I ran a 170mm bike for everything.
Two wheelsets and a 170 Lyrik DH for trail, and a 180 66 for DH.
All my buddies were on 140mm trailbikes and DH bikes.
I finally ended up with a trailbike and a DH bike.
Now, they are all on 160mm Enduro bikes.
I'm still on 135 and 215.
Now there is dual wheelsets and talk of 2nd forks.
Makes me chuckle how things go.

I kept the DH bike as it is worth more to me for a few days every summer than the paltry amount I would get for a 10 year old ride. Put a 27.5 on front years ago (a 26" 888 will take a 27.5 Assegai)
I'm getting old, I'm fat, broken and slow. The 135mm trailbike would beat the crap out of me at a park. Even though I can no longer really make use of its capabilities, it does provide a serious insurance policy if my brain starts writing cheques my body can no longer cash.

If all goes well, it will be out this coming weekend and I will be on it Sunday for my 60th.

 

[norbar]

To be honest there are still some differences but they are small. If you don't want to ride proper hard dh trails the argument to get a DH bike is weak.

Basically some extra travel means you can ride rougher trails and SOME dh bikes are stiffer. Extra travel also means they can be a bit more linear and I kinda think that if you are not looking for an "uphilable dh bike" but something slightly different then something with a bit less rearward travel, slightly more progressive means the bike will feel different.


Still low bb and slack HA are welcome. Though for now I want higher stacks. Some longer enduro bikes felt like shit because of low stacks. Low BB, high stack. Only then I want DH head angles.

I'm with @mykel that if you want 2 bikes a DH bike + trailbike make more sense. Though of course some people race and then a 140mm bike might not be enough for some rougher enduro races

 

[Leafy]

It’s not like most DH bikes aren’t a drivetrain and raised seat away from being “uphillable” they’ve got the same kind of anti squat numbers as enduro bikes, sometimes even higher. The slack sta makes a a bit Uncomfortable, but not much worse than the really long enduro bikes were 4-5 years ago.

 

[Lelandjt]

They’ve got the same kind of anti squat numbers as enduro bikes, sometimes even higher.

Some Springs I've put a dropper post and XX1 drivetrain on my Gambler (and the V10 before that) and trail ridden. It always felt like it lacked enough anti-squat to pedal well. I'd expect DH bikes to have less anti-squat so they can have more active suspension with less pedal kickback. Does the Gambler have significantly less anti-squat than the Ransom?

 

[bullcrew]

Thinking about a dh38 180mm on slash...not now...

That said I opted to take the slash to the NW, going to hit bogus, eagle bike park and tamarack... But now I read my list this I'll just opt for tamarack and bike park (bogus if there's time)...going to run it on the bigger lines and see how it hangs...want to take big bike but we are pedalling and trail riding in redwoods too...
Wife wants to hit mammoth on way up so I'll see if she wants to ride while we are there...

 

[Happymtb.fr]

Does the Gambler have significantly less anti-squat than the Ransom?

I would say that they are fairly similar

The softer feeling when pedalling is likely to be due to a softer wheel rate on the DH bike. Also the suspension will move more on the DH for a similar input and will therefore be more noticeable.

 

[jonKranked]

I would say that they are fairly similar
View attachment 216337
View attachment 216338
The softer feeling when pedalling is likely to be due to a softer wheel rate on the DH bike. Also the suspension will move more on the DH for a similar input and will therefore be more noticeable.

look at the scales on the chart dude.

 

[Happymtb.fr]

look at the scales on the chart dude.

Thanks dude!
They are indeed fairly different: more AS on the DH bike. Must have forgot my glasses this morning and watching on my phone doesn't help much.

my comment about the less pedally feeling is still valid, I reckon