[rockwool]

Russia will pay no attention to world opinion, they will do things the Russian way and apologize to no one. THAT is the way to run a war.

As if there is such a thing...

World opinion in this case (just like most other times..) is the EU and US, and they have an agenda of their own about that region; Oil. How can their words be of any value as they are unjustifiably occupying or suporting the occupation of a sovereign nation just out of that same reason? Add Afghanistan and the threats against Venezuela and Iran that are out of that very same reason too, and I find the opinions of the EU and US to be rediculous.




Here's an article that is full of quotes from Putin telling how the Russians view the situation.

Putin: Georgia’s actions are criminal, whereas Russia’s actions are absolutely legitimate

http://english.pravda.ru/hotspots/conflicts/09-08-2008/106048-putin_georgia-0

Russian news reports say that Russia's Prime Minister Vladimir Putin has arrived in a region that neighbors South Ossetia, where the armed conflict is taking place.

They say Putin is visiting the city of Vladikavkaz, the provincial capital of the region of North Ossetia that neighbors South Ossetia.

Putin said at a work meeting in Vladikavkaz that he could not imagine how it could be possible to make South Ossetia become a part of Georgia afterwards.

“Georgia’s actions are criminal, whereas Russia’s actions are absolutely legitimate,” the Russian Prime Minister said.

Putin urged the Georgian administration to immediately end aggression in South Ossetia.

“The actions of the Georgian authorities in South Ossetia are obviously a crime. It is a crime against its own people, first and foremost,” Putin stated.

“A deadly blow has been struck on the territorial integrity of Georgia itself, which implies huge damage to its state structure,” Putin emphasized.

“The aggression has resulted in numerous victims including those among civilians and has virtually led to a humanitarian catastrophe,” he said.

The Russian PM stressed out that Russia would always treat the Georgian nation with great respect, as a brotherly nation, despite the current tragic events.

“Time will pass and the people of Georgia will give their objective estimations to the actions of the incumbent administration,” Putin said.

Putin believes that Georgia’s aspiration to become a member of NATO is not based on Georgia’s wish to become a part of the global international security system and contribute to the strengthening of international peace.

“It is based on an attempt of the Georgian administration to get other countries involved in its bloody affairs,” he said.

Russia ’s actions in South Ossetia are absolutely grounded and legitimate, Putin said.

“In accordance with international agreements, including the agreement of 1999, Russia does not only execute peacemaking functions, but is obliged, in case one party breaks the cease-fire agreement, to defend the other party, which is exactly what we are doing in case with South Ossetia,” Putin stated.

Russia has been playing a positive and stabilizing role in the Caucasus for ages, Putin said.

“We perfectly realize what world we live in today. We will strive for fair and peaceful solutions of all conflicting situations, which we inherited from the past,” the head of the Russian government said.


Russia 's president Dmitry Medvedev has told U.S. President George W. Bush that Georgia must withdraw its forces from South Ossetia in order to end hostilities there.

The Kremlin says that President Dmitry Medvedev told Bush in a telephone conversation Saturday that Georgia must also sign a legally binding agreement not to use force.

Medvedev voiced hope that the United States could help push Georgia in that direction, and said Russia had to act to protect its citizens and enforce peace.

Georgia launched a massive attack Friday to regain control over South Ossetia. Russia responded by sending in tanks and troops and bombing Georgian territory.

Bush has urged an immediate halt to the violence and a stand-down by all troops.

Military forces in the unrecognized republic of Abkhazia launched air and artillery strikes Saturday to drive Georgian troops from their bridgehead in the region, officials said.

Sergei Shamba, foreign minister in the government of Abkhazia, said Abkhazian forces intended to push Georgian forces out of the Kodori Gorge. The northern part of the gorge is the only area of Abkhazia that has remained under Georgian government control.

Shamba said the Abkhazian move was prompted by Georgia's military action to regain control over South Ossetia, which began Friday. He said Abkhazia had to act because it has a friendship treaty with South Ossetia.

Russia has close ties with both unrecognized republics and granted its passports to most of their residents.

Georgia 's Security Council secretary Alexander Lomaia said that Georgian administrative buildings in the Kodori Gorge were bombed, but he blamed the attack on Russia.

In 2006, Georgian forces moved into the upper part of the Kodori Gorge to root out members of a defiant militia. Georgia later established a local administration made up of people who fled the fighting in Abkhazia.

Abkhazian and Russian officials have said they believe Georgia intends to launch an offensive from there to retake Abkhazia and demanded the withdrawal of Georgian troops from the area.

Shamba said the Abkhazian forces had to act because diplomatic efforts to settle the dispute over Georgia's presence in the gorge had failed. "Georgian forces in the Kodori Gorge posed a real threat," Shamba said.

I agree with Putin on most things and I especially find his view of why Georgia wants to join Nato interesting. Looking at "the world opinion", to quote JohnE, it has played just like Georgia has hoped; Their invasion and masskilling of civilians in SO is suported and instead blamed on Russia!

Something not found in other articles I've read is the explanation of the rights of the Russian peace keeping force in SO, and that they have acted according to that agreement.

Although, I do find this statment of Putin laughable, "Russia has been playing a positive and stabilizing role in the Caucasus for ages, Putin said", like we've forgotten about Tchechnya.

That said, looking at how the wests opinion is so obviously wrong in their stance in the Geo-SO conflict, and knowing how rediculously biased western mainstream media is, there could be things about the Russian-Tchechnyan conflict I don't know of that would justify Russias actions there.

 

[rockwool]

More official views from the news agancy that calls it self for "Truth". Well, this time Pravda could be right as history is speaking in favour of their claims.

“Now it is clear to us why Georgia never accepted Russia’s offer to sign a legally binding document not to use force for the regulation of the South Ossetian conflict,” Lavrov said. “Not so long ago, before the military actions in South Ossetia, Georgia’s President Saakashvili said that there was no point in such a document because Georgia would not use force against its people, as he said. It just so happens that it is using it,” Sergei Lavrov said.

War between Russia and Georgia orchestrated from USA

http://english.pravda.ru/hotspots/conflicts/09-08-2008/106046-russia_georgia-0

The US administration urged for an immediate cease-fire in the conflict between Russia and Georgia over the unrecognized republic of South Ossetia.

In the meantime, Russian officials believe that it was the USA that orchestrated the current conflict. The chairman of the State Duma Committee for Security, Vladimir Vasilyev, believes that the current conflict is South Ossetia is very reminiscent to the wars in Iraq and Kosovo.

“The things that were happening in Kosovo, the things that were happening in Iraq – we are now following the same path. The further the situation unfolds, the more the world will understand that Georgia would never be able to do all this without America. South Ossetian defense officials used to make statements about imminent aggression from Georgia, but the latter denied everything, whereas the US Department of State released no comments on the matter. In essence, they have prepared the force, which destroys everything in South Ossetia, attacks civilians and hospitals. They are responsible for this. The world community will learn about it,” the official said.

In the meantime, it became known that the Georgian troops conducted volley-fire cleansings of several South Ossetian settlements, where people’s houses were simply leveled.

“The number of victims with women, children and elderly people among them, can be counted in hundreds and even thousands,” a source from South Ossetian government in the capital of Tskhinvali said.

The head of the Russian Foreign Ministry, Sergei Lavrov, told reporters that Georgia’s actions in South Ossetia question its consistency as a state and as a responsible member of the international community, Interfax reports.

"Civilians, including women, children and elderly people, are dying in South Ossetia. In addition to that, Georgia conducts ethnic scouring in South Ossetian villages. The situation in South Ossetia continues to worsen every hour. Georgia uses military hardware and heavy arms against people. They shell residential quarters of Tskhinvali [the capital] and other settlements. They bomb the humanitarian convoys. The number of refugees continues to rise – the people try to save their lives, the lives of their children and relatives. A humanitarian catastrophe is gathering pace,” Russia’s Foreign Minister said.

The minister added that the Georgian administration ignored the appeal from the UN General Assembly to observe the Olympic truce during the Beijing Olympics.

“The Georgian administration has found the use to its arms, which they have been purchasing during the recent several years,” Lavrov said. “The fact that Georgian peacemakers in the structure of joint peacemaking forces opened fire on their Russian comrades from one and the same contingent speaks for itself, I think,” the minister added.

“Now it is clear to us why Georgia never accepted Russia’s offer to sign a legally binding document not to use force for the regulation of the South Ossetian conflict,” Lavrov said. “Not so long ago, before the military actions in South Ossetia, Georgia’s President Saakashvili said that there was no point in such a document because Georgia would not use force against its people, as he said. It just so happens that it is using it,” Sergei Lavrov said.

Sergei Lavrov believes that the international community should stop turning a blind eye on Georgia’s active deals to purchase arms.

“We have repeatedly warned that the international community should not turn a blind eye on massive purchases of offensive arms, in which the Georgian administration has been involved during the recent two years,” Lavrov said

Their predictions came true.

Those serving in Iraq side by side with Georgian troops take notice of the above example on what they did to their Russian peace keeping comrades..



The Georgians not only shell at civilians and hospitals but they've also turned against the Gods of the Olymp:

The minister added that the Georgian administration ignored the appeal from the UN General Assembly to observe the Olympic truce during the Beijing Olympics.

If this was ancient Greece, Georgia would have been nuked by a force of united Greek city kingdoms and colonies.


I apreciate those Pravda articles I've read today, alot of things that haven't been mentioned by the Swedish state radio I get to know of here.



EDIT: Here's an explanation of what similarity they see from the US involvement in this conflict with the Yougoslavian.

The situation, which is currently unfolding in South Ossetia, shows that the Georgian army follows a meticulously developed plan. However, it was not Georgia, but the Pentagon that schemed out the operation to conquer the unrecognized republic of South Ossetia 13 years ago. The Pentagon originally tested its plan on the Republic of Serbian Krajina which existed on Croatia’s territory from 1991 to 1995. Thousands of civilians were killed and numerous ethnic cleansings were held as a result of those operations. The Russian citizens residing on the territory of South Ossetia may face the same fate in the event Moscow does not interfere in the conflict.

http://english.pravda.ru/hotspots/conflicts/08-08-2008/106027-russia_georgia-0

 

[Silver]

The more I read about this, the more I think Georgia is a little kid at the zoo who taunted an angry bear and then crawled into the enclosure to punch it on the nose...

 

[DRB]

The more I read about this, the more I think Georgia is a little kid at the zoo who taunted an angry bear and then crawled into the enclosure to punch it on the nose...

Just like Chechnya but in the end those pesky Chechens got what was coming to them. I'm sure the Georgians will end up in a similar situation.

 

[Lowlight7]

The more I read about this, the more I think Georgia is a little kid at the zoo who taunted an angry bear and then crawled into the enclosure to punch it on the nose...

The bears can smell the menstruation.

 

[Silver]

Just like Chechnya but in the end those pesky Chechens got what was coming to them. I'm sure the Georgians will end up in a similar situation.

This is not the same situation as Chechnya. Besides, the Georgian government is hardly a beacon of human rights. They aren't Sweden, you know.

I'm curious if someone in the US administration told the Georgians that we'd intervene on their behalf.

 

[Samirol]

This is not the same situation as Chechnya. Besides, the Georgian government is hardly a beacon of human rights. They aren't Sweden, you know.

I'm curious if someone in the US administration told the Georgians that we'd intervene on their behalf.

No, we just said it would hurt long term relations. A Swedish paper is reporting that Tbilisi IS NOT hit by Russian bombs, and there haven't been casualties at the hospitals from bombs. Here is the translated quote:

DN's, as well as several others, posted journalist has on site searched without success for any signs of Russian attacks against Tbilisi, so far no signs of damage have been found. The singled out objectives have appeared undamaged, and DN has not been able to find any eyewitnesses to the attacks among the local population. Nor have any injured victims from the reported attacks have been brought to Tbilisi hospital.

 

[Stray_cat]

russian Troops Have Entered Georgia From The Breakaway Region Of Abkhazia, Reaching The Town Of Senaki, Officials From Both Russia And Georgia Say.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7554507.stm

 

[rockwool]

Saakashvili turns the table on what's happening and blames Russia. No mention of Georgias attempt to occupy SO and all the masses of killed civilians there.

TV clip: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7554480.stm



And Putin is surprised over the scale of synisism from governments around defending Georgian atrocities in SO.

TV clip: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7554480.stm



And dubya barking about Russian troops outside of SO borders.

TV clip: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7552921.stm

 

[dante]

More official views from the news agancy that calls it self for "Truth". Well, this time Pravda could be right as history is speaking in favour of their claims.

no offense, but if you're discounting the so-called "independent media" of the rest of the world, you're doing yourself a disservice by blindly accepting everything you read on pravda.ru as the truth. pravda is claiming mass casualties perpetrated by the Georgians, and Georgia is claiming mass casualties perpetrated by the Russians.

"history" will take probably months or years before it comes to light, if ever.

 

[$tinkle]

but, but, but..."pravda" means "truth"

 

[DaveW]

no offense, but if you're discounting the so-called "independent media" of the rest of the world, you're doing yourself a disservice by blindly accepting everything you read on pravda.ru as the truth. pravda is claiming mass casualties perpetrated by the Georgians, and Georgia is claiming mass casualties perpetrated by the Russians.

"history" will take probably months or years before it comes to light, if ever.

Well as per the usual whom ever wins gets to write the history books and in this case that would be the Russians.
So "Truth" (Pravda) it is. irate2:

 

[JohnE]

History is written by the victors...

Blind acceptance of the "truth" as given by any office is stupid. Had Hitler allowed
Rommel to move Panzers forward on June 6, we could have all been beleiving all the Nazi "truth" today.

 

[JohnE]

Well as per the usual whom ever wins gets to write the history books and in this case that would be the Russians.
So "Truth" (Pravda) it is. irate2:

D@mnit! Beat me to the truth!

 

[$tinkle]

aren't we in a pickle? i mean, georgia sent troops to iraq, and has had to pull them back to use them on the home front. seems that they'll be calling on us for favors, and rightly so.

 

[rockwool]

This is not the same situation as Chechnya. Besides, the Georgian government is hardly a beacon of human rights. They aren't Sweden, you know.

I'm curious if someone in the US administration told the Georgians that we'd intervene on their behalf.

I don't see Sweden as a beacon of human rights. Some things are good. Or rather, good in comparison to other countries, like the equality between sexes, of which I think we're considered to 'lead', but we still have a long way to go. The bad thing with being 'class leader in something is that many politicians see that as the goal, and not the goal of continous evolution.

That said, we always need to compare our selves with others so that we don't get the idea that 'we're the best' out of ignorance of our neighbours situation.


I'd be a bit surprised if the US admin at least hadn't been informed. A military intervention would be out of the question, but siding with them in a synical way (to borrow Putins definition) as the US and EU has done can be very effective. Obviously it is Georgia that is made to be the victim, and not the SO. Neither any mention of the peacekeeping agreement that Russia is acting within.







I hope you guys can see with the information from different posts from various news sources in this thread, how distorted the west and much of it's press is in this case. I've been trying to show you this when it comes to Cuba and Venezuela, but as those conflicts are older, the huge amount of information from the northern side has already got to people, programed us (to speak technicly), familiarized it to the point that anything contradicting that information seem soo strange its fictive to us.

I've never asked or expected you people to emediately see this disinformation that has been going on, our psycology don't work that way. But as we all take interest in this world, I am asking you to keep reading information from the opposing sides news outlets as well.

I don't know how good I am in getting things I wan't you guys to konw of in a psychologicly correct way, as I'm all the time talking about that we're being lied to, programed, brainwashed, etc. That is how our minds work when exposed to informaton, mine too. I hope you don't view it like you're being told you're idiots or something, anything negative, in any way. The unknown is something we hardly, or impossibly in some cases, can have any idea about so that we can question the things presented to us.

We're all victimes in a war over our minds. Guess not many might not like being victimized eather.. We like to be in control of things, not having stuff being made above our heads.

Watching the Georgian-SO conflict on the news I find it obvious that it's not a matter of view of how and why things happen here; The EU and US view vs. the Russian. I find it obvious that the energy interests that the EU and US have in Georgia is dictating their expanation of what is going on to their citizens. Leaving evidence out that don't suit ones interests is a rule. Right and wrong, consistency of ones judgement/actions in various cases, in other words acting like a court that has to rule like it has ruled in previous similar cases (forgot the word for it..), is not something govermnets/parties bother to do.

The west is not in anyway the good side just becaue we have had sertain democratic fragments for almost a century, and the colonial times are far but over. Some things have evolved, like the limited, or effectively fictive, power our citizens have, and some things have just got subliminal, like our colonial rule.

 

[rockwool]

no offense, but if you're discounting the so-called "independent media" of the rest of the world, you're doing yourself a disservice by blindly accepting everything you read on pravda.ru as the truth. pravda is claiming mass casualties perpetrated by the Georgians, and Georgia is claiming mass casualties perpetrated by the Russians.

"history" will take probably months or years before it comes to light, if ever.

Boyo's beat me to it; pravda means truth. I didn't mean that they because of their name automaticly spoke the truth.

With history in this case, I mean their claims of how the US actions in this conflict resemble those they did in Yougoslavia and later in Iraq.

 

[rockwool]

Silver, this article is written with your questions in mind. Bloody humurously written (although not intended so by the author) as it's full of old neighbouring countries quarrel and bickering, but also written openly with extreme bias.



The two-faced, underhanded foreign policy of Georgia

Then when there is a retaliation, Tblisi goes whining like a cry-baby to the UN Security Council, playing the victim. The question remains, what is behind Tblisi’s policy? Is it the USA, launching a war by proxy against Russia, using its puppet in the area to start a full-scale confrontation? What does Washington hope to gain with such a policy? Is this Custer’s last stand, as the Bush-Cheney regime flushes down the sewer where it belongs, a last-gasp attempt at world domination by provoking the only country capable of standing up to Washington’s imperialist plans?

http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/08-08-2008/106028-twofacedgeorgia-0

Ask anyone in the Caucasus region, and they will tell you never to trust a Georgian because they would shake your hand with a smile and then stab you in the back. On Friday morning, we saw a perfect example of this treachery, when hours after declaring a ceasefire, Georgian military units launched a savage attack on the civilians of South Ossetia.

Hours after Georgia President Mikhail Saakashvili, the pro-western Washington-backed anti-democratic stooge (attacks on opposition policians in Georgia are rife) declared a unilateral ceasefire, the Georgian army lanched a savage attack on the capital of the province of South Ossetia, Tskhinvali, with tanks and infantry, while the air force bombed a village and strafed a Russian humanitarian aid convoy.

According to South Ossetian government sources, there were many civilian casualties in the city of Tskhinvali, a large part of which was destroyed. The Parliament house has burned down and several buildings are on fire. Apart from this, Georgian Su-25 Frogfoot aircraft strafed civilians in the village of Kvernet and attacked a Russian humanitarian aid convoy.

Yet where is the criticism of the West against this blatant act of war crimes perpetrated by the criminal and murderous regime of failed lawyer Saakashvili? While the Russian Foreign Ministry has been issuing daily reports about the escalating tension in the area, and while Moscow has bent over backwards to find a peaceful and mutually acceptable solution, the Western media have consistently ignored the story while Georgia has consistently snubbed all efforts towards peace, while carrying out cowardly underhanded and treacherous attacks such as we have seen today.

Then when there is a retaliation, Tblisi goes whining like a cry-baby to the UN Security Council, playing the victim. The question remains, what is behind Tblisi’s policy? Is it the USA, launching a war by proxy against Russia, using its puppet in the area to start a full-scale confrontation? What does Washington hope to gain with such a policy? Is this Custer’s last stand, as the Bush-Cheney regime flushes down the sewer where it belongs, a last-gasp attempt at world domination by provoking the only country capable of standing up to Washington’s imperialist plans?

The position of the Russian Federation has been consistent, clear and as usual, by the book of diplomacy. Mocow has worked tirelessly behind the scenes, convening peace councils, trying to mediate between the two sides, always respecting both positions and constantly stressing the need to find a solution which satisfies Tblisi as well as Tskhinvali. The Foreign Ministry has been careful to inform all media outlets of what has been going on and of the growing escalation in the region.

It seems that nothing changes. The West remained silent, as if nothing was happening then when Georgia gets a hiding, suddenly become interested, but fail to report who started the conflict. It seems that nothing changes. Georgia declares a ceasefire one minute and within hours commits war crimes in savage attacks against civilians.

It seems that nothing changes. Georgia’s most infamous exports are its undrinkable wines and disgusting, low-quality dangerous food products while its most famous export was Josef Stalin. Maybe he should have stayed at home and concentrated more of his efforts there.

Timothy BANCROFT-HINCHEY

Funny name for a Russian. A hillarious writer non the less.

An important thing pointed out in this article was that a cease fire between Georgia and SO was declared unilatiraly by Saakashvili during wednesday or thurday last week! No doubt, he knew he would get his ass handed when he hours later bombed civilians and Russian peacekeepers and still he did it. His plan must have been to play the Russians out with the help of the media and those countries that have interests in the pipeline. But for what gain in the end?

 

[MountainDrew]

Looks like Georgia going to be a man down in this fight....

http://msn.foxsports.com/cfb/story/8441810/Georgia-loses-starting-LT-Sturdivant-for-season

 

[jimmydean]

Gates: No need for US forces in Georgia

'cause we aint gotz none.

Don't piss of the president while he's on vacation. He hasn't taken a vacation in nearly 3 weeks!

 

[$tinkle]

isn't obama still on vacation in hawaii?

 

[jimmydean]

isn't obama still on vacation in hawaii?

Bitch when he hits over 600 days. Nobody will top GWB, NOBODY. he has a lot of brush to clear, I guess.

 

[$tinkle]

i would think you lot would be happy about that.

 

[jimmydean]

i would think you lot would be happy about that.

I would be if he were not supposed to be running the country. I mean, it's not like he's done anything when he is at the whitehouse, but at least it looks better.

A lot like me, I guess.

 

[$tinkle]

i don't know why this surprises me, but apparently this war is bush & cheney's fault

Russians were told over breakfast yesterday what really happened in Georgia: the conflict in South Ossetia was part of a plot by Dick Cheney, the Vice-President, to stop Barack Obama being elected president of the United States.

does the truth even have its pants on yet?

 

[jimmydean]

Sounds about par for the course. Maybe it wouldn't sound so possible if they weren't such jackasses.

 

[Samirol]

does the truth even have its pants on yet?

Obama's poll numbers have stayed pretty steady, so the plan obviously didn't work

 

[$tinkle]

this is real nice: Russian general says Poland open to nuclear strike

strangegloves to come off?

 

[Stray_cat]

Found this interesting
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7562611.stm

The BBC's Sarah Rainsford has reported: "Many Ossetians I met both in Tskhinvali and in the main refugee camp in Russia are furious about what has happened to their city.

"They are very clear who they blame: Georgia's President Mikhail Saakashvili, who sent troops to re-take control of this breakaway region."

 

[sanjuro]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/16/world/europe/16prexy.html?hp

President Bush condemned as unacceptable what he called Russia’s “bullying and intimidation.” He also said Friday that Russia must withdraw its troops from all of Georgian territory and said the United States would stand with Georgia in the conflict.

“Georgia’s sovereignty and territorial integrity must be respected,” he said.

The conflict punctuated a stark turnabout in the administration’s view of Vladimir V. Putin, the president-turned-prime minister whom Mr. Bush has repeatedly described as a trustworthy friend. Now Mr. Bush’s aides complain that Russian officials have been misleading or at least evasive about Russia’s intentions in Georgia.

Just no consistency at all, not that Bush had any creditability before.

Way to go, W.

 

[jimmydean]

Who do the Russians think they are! Storm into a sovereign country, occupy the capital, rip down their statutes...

Oh wait, that was us.

Last nights Daily Show was funny.

 

[rockwool]

this is real nice: Russian general says Poland open to nuclear strike

strangegloves to come off?

What I read from that Generals quote is that it is more intended as information for the Polish politicians and its people. Probably as to rase opinion against the missiles because of the conventional and nuclear threat that those bring with them. A threat that wouln't exist other wise.

“Poland, by deploying [the system] is exposing itself to a strike - 100 per cent,” he was quoted as saying, before explaining that Russian military doctrine sanctioned the use of nuclear weapons “against the allies of countries having nuclear weapons if they in some way help them”.

Found this interesting
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7562611.stm

Good article. Very different in its reporting from those also Brittish Timesonline articles above, whose bias was evident.

 

[$tinkle]

Who do the Russians think they are! Storm into a sovereign country, occupy the capital, rip down their statutes...

Oh wait, that was us.

Last nights Daily Show was funny.

wow you [daily show watching] people are easily malleable.

was the u.n. hand-wringing for 11 years finding a way to constrain georgia in their pursuit of a banned weapons program?
was georgia a dictatorship, or in possession of a democratically elected gov't?
does georgia have the history of repeated & unprovoked aggression against its neighbors, to include the use of wmd?

you don't seriously think for a second iraq & georgia are remotely similar in their right to sovereignty, do you?

 

[jimmydean]

you don't seriously think for a second iraq & georgia are remotely similar in their right to sovereignty, do you?

What part of "It's a comedy show" do you not grasp?

Granted, the "news" they present have the same level of factual accuracy as Fox, but it's aired on a station KNOWN for comedy.

<edit> Do you take the same offense to articles on the Onion?

You do have to admit that when Bush says Russia has no right, it does come off as funny. Oh wait, you fail at humor. My bad.

 

[sanjuro]

A concise analysis:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article4525885.ece

Vladimir Putin's mastery checkmates the West

Russia has been biding its time, but its victory in Georgia has been brutal - and brilliant

Michael Binyon

The cartoon images have shown Russia as an angry bear, stretching out a claw to maul Georgia. Russia is certainly angry, and, like a beast provoked, has bared its teeth. But it is the wrong stereotype. What the world has seen last week is a brilliant and brutal display of Russia's national game, chess. And Moscow has just declared checkmate.

Chess is a slow game. One has to be ready to ignore provocations, lose a few pawns and turn the hubris of others into their own entrapment. For years there has been rising resentment within Russia. Some of this is inevitable: the loss of empire, a burning sense of grievance and the fear that in the 1990s, amid domestic chaos and economic collapse, Russia's views no longer mattered.

A generalised resentment, similar to the sour undercurrents of Weimar Germany, began to focus on specific issues: the nonchalance of the Clinton Administration about Russian sensitivities, especially over the Balkans and in opening Nato's door to former Warsaw Pact members; the neo-conservative agenda of the early Bush years that saw no role for Russia in its global agenda; and Washington's ingratitude after 9/11 for vital Kremlin support over terrorism, Afghanistan and intelligence on extremism.

More infuriating was Western encouragement of &#8220;freedom&#8221; in the former Soviet satellite states that gave carte blanche to forces long hostile to Russia. In the Baltic states, Soviet occupation could be portrayed as worse than the Nazis. EU commissioners from new member states could target Russian policies. Populists in Eastern Europe could ride to power on anti-Russian rhetoric emboldened by Western applause for their fluency in English.

Nowhere was such taunting more wounding than in Ukraine and Georgia, two countries long part of the Russian Empire, whose history, religion and culture were so intertwined with Russia's. Moscow tried, disastrously, to check Western, and particularly American, influence in Ukraine. The clumsy meddling led to the Orange Revolution.

Georgia was a different matter. Relations were always mercurial, but Eduard Shevardnadze, the wily former Soviet Foreign Minister, knew how to keep atavistic animosities in check. Not so his brash successor, Mikheil Saakashvili. From then on, hubris was Tbilisi's undoing.

It was not simply the dismissive rhetoric, the open door to US advisers or the economic illiteracy in forgetting dependence on Russian energy and remittance from across the border; it was the determined attempt to make Georgia a US regional ally and outpost of US influence.

Big powers do not like other big powers poaching. This may not be moral or fair but it is reality, and one that underpins the Security Council veto. The Monroe Doctrine - &#8220;hands off the Americas&#8221; - has been policy in Washington for 200 years. The US is ready to risk war to keep out not only other powers but hostile ideologies - in Cuba and Nicaragua.

Vladimir Putin lost several pawns on the chessboard - Kosovo, Iraq, Nato membership for the Baltic states, US renunciation of the ABM treaty, US missiles in Poland and the Czech Republic. But he waited.

The trap was set in Georgia. When President Saakashvili blundered into South Ossetia, sending in an army to shell, kill and maim on a vicious scale (against US advice and his promised word), Russia was waiting.

It was not only Mr Saakashvili who thought that he had the distraction of the Olympics to cover him; the Kremlin also knew that Mr Bush was watching basketball, and, in the longer term, that the US army was fully engaged in Iraq and Afghanistan. From the day that the Russian tank brigade raced through the tunnel into South Ossetia, Russia has not made one wrong move. Mr Bush's remarks yesterday notwithstanding, In five days it turned an overreaching blunder by a Western-backed opponent into a devastating exposure of Western impotence, dithering and double standards on respecting national sovereignty (viz Iraq).

The attack was short, sharp and deadly - enough to send the Georgians fleeing in humiliating panic, their rout captured by global television. The destruction was enough to hurt, but not so much that the world would be roused in fury. The timing of the ceasefire was precise: just hours before President Sarkozy could voice Western anger. Moscow made clear that it retained the initiative. And despite sporadic breaches - on both sides - Russia has blunted Georgian charges that this is a war of annihilation.

Moscow can also counter Georgian PR, the last weapon left to Tbilisi. Human rights? Look at what Georgia has done in South Ossetia (and also in Abkhazia). National sovereignty? Look at the detachment of Kosovo from Serbia. False pretexts? Look at Ronald Reagan's invasion of Grenada to &#8220;rescue&#8221; US medical students. Western outrage? Look at the confused cacophony.

There are lessons everywhere. To the former Soviet republics - remember your geography. To Nato - do you still want to incorporate Caucasian vendettas into your alliance? To Tbilisi - do you want to keep a President who brought this on you? To Washington - does Russia's voice still count for nothing? Like it or not, it counts for a lot.

 

[Samirol]

wow you [daily show watching] people are easily malleable.

was the u.n. hand-wringing for 11 years finding a way to constrain georgia in their pursuit of a banned weapons program?
was georgia a dictatorship, or in possession of a democratically elected gov't?
does georgia have the history of repeated & unprovoked aggression against its neighbors, to include the use of wmd?

you don't seriously think for a second iraq & georgia are remotely similar in their right to sovereignty, do you?

The Daily Show advertises itself as something that isn't to be taken seriously, it doesn't proclaim itself as the no-spin zone, even John Stewart has said it is fake news meant for comedy.



Excellent article Sanjuro

 

[$tinkle]

What part of "It's a comedy show" do you not grasp?

while this is true, it's also a sad commentary of just how jaded people have become, myself included.

<edit> Do you take the same offense to articles on the Onion?

no, as they're damn funny, which is their only goal. caught a TAL segment on NPR about the onion contributors. jon gets a bit tired when you can read the transcript and confuse it for olbermann (who's a damn good sports commentator by trade). all-anti-bush-all-the-time is just as tired as 3 hrs of hannity/rush and their breathless anti-lib tirades. i stopped watching the daily show when it became rote & all the frat boys lofted him as this beacon of truth, yet saying "it's just comedy". it's too bad tough crowd got canned after only 2 seasons; they ripped on everyone.

You do have to admit that when Bush says Russia has no right, it does come off as funny. Oh wait, you fail at humor. My bad.

while there is an undeniable cringiness about bush's finger wagging @ putin's soul, what about when members of congress (who voted for initial & ongoing mil action in either iraq or afgh.) do likewise? just sayin.

 

[sanjuro]

Like most Americans, I didn't pay attention until Bush got us involved. Now that I start look at the sides, it seems like an internal affair which the US does not need to start poking at with our spears and swords.

Actually, by agreeing to a missile base in Poland and the strong rebuke of Putin, Bush has now thrown gasoline on what looked like a fire that was going out.

 

[$tinkle]

Like most Americans, I didn't pay attention until Bush got us involved. Now that I start look at the sides, it seems like an internal affair which the US does not need to start poking at with our spears and swords.

Actually, by agreeing to a missile base in Poland and the strong rebuke of Putin, Bush has now thrown gasoline on what looked like a fire that was going out.

moreover, it seems we're caught in the mosh of "pay any price; bear any burden", except that we're in no position to do either....to say nothing of the (perceived or real) moral hypocrisy.

if nothing else, this should be a watershed moment for the u.n.

i'm going to quickly laugh my ass off when russia exercises their veto against any u.n. resolution.

and yes, i'm sure we'd do the same were the tables turned.

 

[Defenestrated]

I dunno I thought it is a bit ironic watching codi talking about how invading countries is wrong.