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syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
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290
VT
BigMike said:
I predict that once OSX 10.5 comes out with integrated bootcamp that Macs will take over a signifigant share of the market. :thumb:
Multibooting is a PITA - wasting time switching back and forth for certain applications. Thats why efficient/well equipped professional users have multiple computers instead.

Bootcamp is not nearly exciting as OS virtualization at native speeds in a sandbox environment (especially since most users are too dumb to safely use a PC on their own).

The new Intel CPUs Apple is using will enable this technology and be far bettter than multibooting once the technology is mature.

In the corporate environment its best to use something like Citrix w/thin clients if doable with your companies applications - much easier to manage a few central servers than hundreds of separate PC/Mac/Sun/etc.
 

binary visions

The voice of reason
Jun 13, 2002
21,653
402
NC
BigMike said:
I predict that once OSX 10.5 comes out with integrated bootcamp that Macs will take over a signifigant share of the market. :thumb:
You're dreaming.

Absolutely dreaming.

Their market share might increase a small amount (a percent or two, maybe), but there's no way in hell that they'll hit anything like a "significant" portion of the market.

And I'll buy you a 6-pack of your favorite beer if I'm wrong.
 

binary visions

The voice of reason
Jun 13, 2002
21,653
402
NC
I just watched the ads... You know, usually I really like Apple's ad campaign. These just seemed kinda dumb to me :think:

The virus one was a little funny... The rest were just inane.
 

Ciaran

Fear my banana
Apr 5, 2004
9,843
8
So Cal
BigMike said:
I predict that once OSX 10.5 comes out with integrated bootcamp that Macs will take over a signifigant share of the market. :thumb:
Never happen. Apple will never get Microsoft out of the business world and themselves in.

Along with BV's sixer, I'll buy the pizza if it happens.
 

Ridemonkey

This is not an active account
Sep 18, 2002
4,109
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Toronto, Canada
Ciaran said:
Never happen. Apple will never get Microsoft out of the business world and themselves in.

Along with BV's sixer, I'll buy the pizza if it happens.
Yeah, because if history has taught us anything it's that power never changes hands.
 

stinkyboy

Plastic Santa
Jan 6, 2005
15,192
0
¡Phoenix!
binary visions said:
I just watched the ads... You know, usually I really like Apple's ad campaign. These just seemed kinda dumb to me :think:

The virus one was a little funny... The rest were just inane.
It's tough being the guy on the left huh?
 

binary visions

The voice of reason
Jun 13, 2002
21,653
402
NC
stinkyboy said:
It's tough being the guy on the left huh?
You changed your post. The first one was funnier :p

Ridemonkey said:
Yeah, because if history has taught us anything it's that power never changes hands.
I don't think either of us were saying that. But we both agreed that Boot Camp isn't going to drive Apple's market share sky high.
 

Ridemonkey

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Sep 18, 2002
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Toronto, Canada
binary visions said:
You changed your post. The first one was funnier :p


I don't think either of us were saying that. But we both agreed that Boot Camp isn't going to drive Apple's market share sky high.
Of course not. It's a step in the right direction, but by no means will it change the world.

However, his comment was:

Never happen. Apple will never get Microsoft out of the business world and themselves in.
A tad short-sighted me thinks.
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,721
290
VT
binary visions said:
I don't think either of us were saying that. But we both agreed that Boot Camp isn't going to drive Apple's market share sky high.
Exactly.

Also whatever minor sale effect there is will be short lived. A majority of Windows problems are due to user error/stupidity - a clueless user will still do stupid things on his computer whether he is on a PC or a Mactel hardware in Windows. Thats why they need virtualization in a sandbox...
 

Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,045
0
Towing the party line.
syadasti said:
Thats why they need virtualization in a sandbox...
That is what boot camp is leading up to I believe, this was the plan I read anyways from some apple programmer interview. I fit happens, it would indeed be a boon. Native speeds, safety of VPC.
 

Toshi

Harbinger of Doom
Oct 23, 2001
26,535
1,900
virtualization is working at this very moment, on my own mac.

www.parallels.com + changing one bit in the EFI firmware to enable the Intel VT-x virtualization + WinXP = Snappy(tm)
 

Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,045
0
Towing the party line.
Toshi said:
virtualization is working at this very moment, on my own mac.

www.parallels.com + changing one bit in the EFI firmware to enable the Intel VT-x virtualization + WinXP = Snappy(tm)
Only running natively without any virtualization is faster, and is the end goal for boot camp. I saw parallels awhile ago, it was pretty cool. It'll be end of summer before i have an intel machine to test things on though.
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,721
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Transcend said:
Only running natively without any virtualization is faster, and is the end goal for boot camp. I saw parallels awhile ago, it was pretty cool. It'll be end of summer before i have an intel machine to test things on though.
The new Intel chips are designed to do hardware enhanced virtualization, not something else. Parallels is a brand new product and already at near native speeds - direct hardware access without emulation.

I am sure MS and Apple will have their own VPC offerings to take advantage of the new Intel technology but they will all work in a similar fashion.
 

Ciaran

Fear my banana
Apr 5, 2004
9,843
8
So Cal
Ridemonkey said:
Of course not. It's a step in the right direction, but by no means will it change the world.

However, his comment was:



A tad short-sighted me thinks.
I don't know man... 20 years and Apple is still in the same place, standing outside the office looking in. Why would business move to apple so they can run Windows on it? And then there are the business apps along with proprietary apps that companies use that have been extensively developed on PC's. In the company I work for they have invested so much into their medical records software that switching to Apple is absolutely not possible. I would imagine that there are many companies much the same.

I can see Apple taking much more of the home computer market, but not the business market.
 

BigMike

BrokenbikeMike
Jul 29, 2003
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Montgomery county MD
I agree with the head monkey. Its definantly a step in the right direction.

And I mistyped earlier, I didn't mean JUST bootcamp, I meant also being able to run Windoze in a window on OSX. Paralleling of some sort..... ;)
 

Ciaran

Fear my banana
Apr 5, 2004
9,843
8
So Cal
Transcend said:
Depends what business it is you are talking about. Photography, design, print - they already have it sealed up.
Good point. However when most people say "The business world" they aren't talking about phtography, design, or print. I would also hazard a guess that those photo, et al businesses are using PC's to handle the mundane day to day tasks of running the business.

Just my opinion... your actual milage may vary.

Also, why would anyne want to run windows on a mac anyway? You all complain endlessly about windows yet here you all are, excited that you can run it on your Macs. :think:

I'l bow out of this thread now as it's turning more towards a technical discussion about the macs, and I can't contribute to that discussion. And I don't want to cause the thread to spiral down into another PC v. Mac debate. :)
 

Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,045
0
Towing the party line.
Ciaran said:
Good point. However when most people say "The business world" they aren't talking about phtography, design, or print. I would also hazard a guess that those photo, et al businesses are using PC's to handle the mundane day to day tasks of running the business.

Just my opinion... your actual milage may vary.

Also, why would anyne want to run windows on a mac anyway? You all complain endlessly about windows yet here you all are, excited that you can run it on your Macs. :think:

I'l bow out of this thread now as it's turning more towards a technical discussion about the macs, and I can't contribute to that discussion. And I don't want to cause the thread to spiral down into another PC v. Mac debate. :)
All the design/photo and print guys I know are doing everything on a mac. There is no reason to have a PC to run mundane tasks, besides as a POS machine in copy shops etc.

Why run windows on a mac? My example is a decent one: I work as a designer. I need to proof websites on IE. IE 6 only runs on a pc. Right now I have to have multiple machines on or around my work area, if i can cut that down, i would in a second.
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,721
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Transcend said:
All the design/photo and print guys I know are doing everything on a mac. There is no reason to have a PC to run mundane tasks, besides as a POS machine in copy shops etc..
You didn't address his point at all. Apple already has those users and he isn't talking about them.
 

Ridemonkey

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Sep 18, 2002
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Toronto, Canada
Ciaran said:
Good point. However when most people say "The business world" they aren't talking about phtography, design, or print. I would also hazard a guess that those photo, et al businesses are using PC's to handle the mundane day to day tasks of running the business.

Just my opinion... your actual milage may vary.

Also, why would anyne want to run windows on a mac anyway? You all complain endlessly about windows yet here you all are, excited that you can run it on your Macs. :think:

I'l bow out of this thread now as it's turning more towards a technical discussion about the macs, and I can't contribute to that discussion. And I don't want to cause the thread to spiral down into another PC v. Mac debate. :)
I think Mac HAS made progress in the business world. When it comes to enterprise solutions we're still going to see Windows for some time, but I'm starting to see far more Mac users over in the Financial District for example. Why? Because a lot of business geniuses are computer idiots, and Macs are easy to use, and can talk to anything automatically. Whenever I'm down there for meetings, I check out what everyone's using, and I'm seeing more and more executives with Mac laptops sitting in front of their sleeping PC monitors.

As for being excited about Windows/Bootcamp, personally, I'm not really. I'm in the same boat as Transcend in that I need windows only to test web apps in IE, but I'm not about to reboot my computer to test a page.

What something like Bootcamp brings to the table is an opportunity for Windows users to make the switch more care free. Let's face it, no one in their right mind would buy a Mac and just run XP on it...that'd be ridiculous. The beauty of Mac is OSX. Bootcamp let's Windows users switch to OSX without worrying about the transition.

For example, my stepdad has wanted a Mac for years because he's really bad with anything technical, and managed to infect, uninstall, and clog up his Windows PC on pretty much a daily basis. However, he didn't make the switch until recently because he was worried a Mac wouldn't be compatible with his network at work, etc. Of course this was all nonsense, since compatibility issues on Mac have been non-existent for some time now, but something like Bootcamp would give him the piece of mind that if there was a compatibility issue, or a program he needed to run in Windows that he could still do that if necessary - all while becoming accustomed to OSX, and taking advantage of all it has to offer.

Cole's Notes: Bootcamp makes it easier for Windows users to gradually stop using Windows.
 

BigMike

BrokenbikeMike
Jul 29, 2003
8,933
0
Montgomery county MD
Ridemonkey said:
Cole's Notes: Bootcamp makes it easier for Windows users to gradually stop using Windows.

:thumb:


Other reasons are that there are PC specific programs. AutoCAD for example. The fact that you can run AutoCAD in a "window of Windows" on OSX is amazing. Sure, it won't run QUITE as well as if you rebooted into Windoze, or were running it on a PC, but for someone like me who runs autoCAD very rarely, it's just fine.

Also, for gamers. There are a lot of PC only games out there, and if you reboot into Windows, they will run just as well on the Mac hardware, but for everyday stuff you can still have OSX, all in one machine.
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,721
290
VT
BigMike said:
CAD...Also, for gamers. There are a lot of PC only games out there, and if you reboot into Windows, they will run just as well on the Mac hardware, but for everyday stuff you can still have OSX, all in one machine.
For heavy duty CAD and gamers, the X1600 is not nearly enough of a GPU. Maybe when the MacPro desktop comes out w/easily upgradable GPU, but the iMac, Mini, or Macbook Pro would choke on some of the more modern games and complex CAD applications.
 

BigMike

BrokenbikeMike
Jul 29, 2003
8,933
0
Montgomery county MD
syadasti said:
For heavy duty CAD and gamers, the X1600 is not nearly enough of a GPU. Maybe when the MacPro desktop comes out w/easily upgradable GPU, but the iMac, Mini, or Macbook Pro would choke on some of the more modern games and complex CAD applications.

notice I said I run AutoCAD rarely, I don't consider that heavy duty use ;) I use VectorWorks anyway, which runs beautifully on a MAC, and chokes on a PC :)

As for games, I have been told there is not a HUGE difference in games like Doom3, Quake 4, etc. You are probably right, but is it somthing i'm gonna notice? probably not.....
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,721
290
VT
BigMike said:
You are probably right, but is it somthing i'm gonna notice? probably not.....
LCDs look best at the native higher resolutions vs. scaling to fit. Also you'd want to run full effects/highest quality to get the full effect as the game designers intended - definately noticeable too.

You try to play those games at 16x12 on the imac with full eye candy turned on and it would be like a slideshow (not to mention even if it wasn't the LCD panel isn't good enough to display without blurring in motion intensive action)

Plus you can't upgrade the soundsystem to support hardware acceleration of gaming audio API's - software based engines don't cut it plus they slow down your game versus hardware based sound solutions.

The latest in gaming is hardware based physic acceleration. You can't upgrade to that either...

A MacPro desktop would obviously elminate all these concerns w/available expansion slots and separate display.
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,721
290
VT
Ridemonkey said:
...and none of this affects Apple penetrating the business world.
And I never said it did. BigMike was talking about PC gaming on the Mac. Try reading as the thread progresses next time ;)