[TheInedibleHulk]

Had an interesting discussion tonight with a couple of friends who are also somewhat politically concious and level headed, as I consider myself to be. The discussion was in the context of our university's political climate. I go to Unversity of Colorado, which has a largely conservative student base, a largely liberal faculty, and a very vocal liberal student minority. There has been a debate recently about CU apparel that is supposedly coming from sweatshops, and this was the issue that sparked the discussion. The conclusion we came to is that a very large number of reasonable, intelligent people, stay out of many political issues because they don't want to be associated with either extreme. This happens on this board all the time, you're either taking N8's side or Changleen's side, and if you make a post that is moderate and intelligent, no one comments on it. At this school, the political spokespeople end up being a bunch of useless hippies on one side and a bunch of spoiled, gung-hu, ignorant college republicans on the other side. Both sides look at how crappy the other is and how wrong they are and just move farther and farther to the opposite end of the spectrum. Yes- the hippies are ineffective and never get anything done because they are too busy talking each other's ears off, and yes- the conservatives are wrong because they dont care about anyone and dont think things over enough before taking action. Personally I can't stand either group, and think they are both equally wrong. Really they have the same problem, they look at only the perspective that fits what they want to see. With the sweatshop thing, the libs look at what they think are poor conditions and immediately start crying foul without thinking about economic issues or the alternatives that those workers would have if they were to lose that job. The reps just look at the economic side and ignore the entire human aspect. To anyone who steps back and thinks about it, the answer is clearly somewhere in the middle, Industrialization is a neccesary step in economic development and once the area has more money they will be able to afford improved conditions... ect, ect. I was struck by what an excellent microcosm this is for the overall US political climate. Rather than isolating the problems with the opposing side and working to remedy them, both sides look at the other side, decide it has problems, and proceed to do the opposite. I realize this is a generalization and does not apply on all issues, but I think it may be one of the real underlying problems with the politcal system. What do you think if you actually read this far?

 

[fluff]

Don't forget that many people seek power in order to further their own personal goals. These people don't care about anything other than enriching themselves (for example).

You are quite correct in stating that sensible views elicit far less reaction than extreme ones (for obvious reasons). What is harder to understand is why so many people seem to want to listen to extreme views.

 

[N8 v2.0]

I'm scanning the library for a book titled, "Great Moderates in History."

No luck yet though....

 

[fluff]

Tis a pity that more sensible (like myself) do not get involved in politics...

 

[valve bouncer]

Bah, don't worry about it mate, we're mostly blowhards in here who are enamored with the sounds of our own voices. It's chest thumping and turd throwing like two gorillas at the zoo. I like yelling and screaming at the frothers. A lot of turds get thrown but funnily enough I'd reckon that this forum needs less moderating than than others. Kind of sorts itself.
As for uni, well what else is it good for if not for sitting in coffee shops argueing about the worlds problems.

 

[$tinkle]

The discussion was in the context of our university's political climate. I go to Unversity of Colorado, which has a largely conservative student base, a largely liberal faculty, and a very vocal liberal student minority. There has been a debate recently about CU apparel that is supposedly coming from sweatshops, and this was the issue that sparked the discussion.

like most collegiate do-gooders, making a stink about the exploitation of brown people is the replacement for actually helping them. oh, and the further away the brown people, the louder the students protesteth.

you must go to the boulder campus; i'm down in the springs, and it seems that no one here cares about anything. we're largely a commuter campus, which may explain the lack of phenomenon.

maybe you could get those do-gooders from both sides to help build some trails to replace the gold hill & the other sore spot area referenced on the locals thread last week(s).

this post just reinforced my sig

 

[Andyman_1970]

like most collegiate do-gooders, making a stink about the exploitation of brown people is the replacement for actually helping them. oh, and the further away the brown people, the louder the students protesteth.

I wonder how many of those who make a stink about the exploitation of "brown" folks gave money to help tsunami victims? I'm wondering if there is a coorelation between the "making a stink" and actually doing something tangible and immediate to help those whom the "stink" is about.

 

[$tinkle]

I wonder how many of those who make a stink about the exploitation of "brown" folks gave money to help tsunami victims? I'm wondering if there is a coorelation between the "making a stink" and actually doing something tangible and immediate to help those whom the "stink" is about.

look for the 'free tibet' stickers if you want to be both lazy & yet suprisingly correct

 

[TheInedibleHulk]

Not entirely related, but I saw a video from one of these "sweatshops." I watched for about 10 minutes, and all I saw was a middle aged woman sitting at a computer typing.... seemed very strenuous. For my job, I stand in the 90 degree maryland heat and haul thousands of pounds of stone and sand around peoples house and then arranged it so that someone can have a nice looking patio. I sweat my ass off, as far as I can tell these people arent doing too bad. Of course I have not been there, so who really knows. If you compare the conditions for these people to the conditions endured by american workers during the period of industrialization in the US, I'm sur ethey are having a much easier time of it.

"I'm scanning the library for a book titled, "Great Moderates in History."

No luck yet though...."

I'm scanning the library trying to figure what good a conservative ever did... Lets see, civil rights... nope, ending slavery... nope, bringing the US out of depression... nope, improving education.... you see where Im going with this? Thsi country was founded by people who would have been considered extremely radical liberals, and as I think about for that most part all of our progress in the right direction has been effected by liberals.

 

[$tinkle]

I'm scanning the library trying to figure what good a conservative ever did... Lets see, civil rights... nope, ending slavery... nope, bringing the US out of depression... nope, improving education.... you see where Im going with this?

in 1964, republicans were a congressional minority & voted overwhelmingly for the civil rights act.
abraham lincoln, who emancipated slaves, was a republican.
bringing the us out of depression can be acredited to both sides, as it took a generation to accomplish
improving education...well...seems to me they have a backdoor approach & choose to fix (or 'focus on') the family. our colleges are doing just dandy, it's the elementary - h.s. which need to be overhauled (which should not include being babysitters/policemen)

Thsi country was founded by people who would have been considered extremely radical liberals, and as I think about for that most part all of our progress in the right direction has been effected by liberals.

when i think of our founding fathers (king james bible beatin', slave ownin', god fearin' folks who didn't litigate their way to freedom), "extremely radical liberals" are the last group that comes to mind.

for this to be true, the anglican lymies would have to have been some kind of serious right-wing nuts even i wouldn't hang out with.

 

[TheInedibleHulk]

.
abraham lincoln, who emancipated slaves, was a republican.
bringing the us out of depression can be acredited to both sides, as it took a generation to accomplish

.

True Abe was a republican, but that is not the same republican party that exists today. I suppose in a sense you could consider Abe's way of thinking the more conservative, supporting a more powerful central government. I was talking about the New Deal when it comes to bringing us out of depression, and there is no denying that that was a liberal movement.

i think of our founding fathers (king james bible beatin', slave ownin', god fearin' folks who didn't litigate their way to freedom), "extremely radical liberals" are the last group that comes to mind.
for this to be true, the anglican lymies would have to have been some kind of serious right-wing nuts even i wouldn't hang out with.

You have to look at this in historical context. By our standards certainly they would not be liberal, but politically they were as liberal as it got for the time. Laissez Faire economics, seperation of church and state, and a democratic republic for 1778 was extremly radical compared to previous systems of government. Also, many of the founding fathers were not bible beating or god fearin, despite what the religiuos right wants to believe. Washington, Franklin, and Jefferson were all deists at best.

 

[TheInedibleHulk]

look for the 'free tibet' stickers if you want to be both lazy & yet suprisingly correct

Agreed. Worthless. If mega-liberals actually cared about the causes they claim to support, they would be getting law degrees or making money so they could actually cause a change, not sitting outside my classroom in drum circles and detroying their minds with ludicris amount of weed.

 

[ummbikes]

.

Also, many of the founding fathers were not bible beating or god fearin, despite what the religiuos right wants to believe. Washington, Franklin, and Jefferson were all deists at best.

May you be struck by lightning!

People do tend to overlook this a bit.

That isn't to say religious men didn't play a role either, oh well the devil is in the deatails.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Agreed. Worthless. If mega-liberals actually cared about the causes they claim to support, they would be getting law degrees or making money so they could actually cause a change, not sitting outside my classroom in drum circles and detroying their minds with ludicris amount of weed.

 

[$tinkle]

True Abe was a republican, but that is not the same republican party that exists today. I suppose in a sense you could consider Abe's way of thinking the more conservative, supporting a more powerful central government. I was talking about the New Deal when it comes to bringing us out of depression, and there is no denying that that was a liberal movement.

i guess today's "true republican cause" has its roots in william f. buckley, so yeah, i was talking much smack

You have to look at this in historical context. By our standards certainly they would not be liberal, but politically they were as liberal as it got for the time. Laissez Faire economics, seperation of church and state, and a democratic republic for 1778 was extremly radical compared to previous systems of government.

quite true.

Also, many of the founding fathers were not bible beating or god fearin, despite what the religiuos right wants to believe. Washington, Franklin, and Jefferson were all deists at best.

these are the most notable, but bear in mind there were a few dozen founding fathers, and their musings quite frequently refered to christ by name.

this is one topic i wish the absolute truth were known & agreed to by both sides, but it's not going to happen any time soon. until then, i'm not going to put too much stock in either side.

 

[Silver]

when i think of our founding fathers (king james bible beatin', slave ownin', god fearin' folks who didn't litigate their way to freedom), "extremely radical liberals" are the last group that comes to mind.

As a matter of fact, they were so conservative that they didn't see the need for a revolution and to this day the United States is a British colony.

 

[genpowell71]

Here's what I'd like to know. Why is it you see all these selfindulged college professors, that are supposedly smarter than the majority of the rest of the country, talking about how bad life is under George Bush and how that if John Kerry were elected then it would have been much better. BUT, when I was attending classes at the Unversity of Maryland 10 years ago, they were complaining about Bill Clinton and how he isnt the best man for the presidency? Where do these people draw the line? The Right side isnt any better. Kerry got defeated and the rednecks rejoice. but I cant go to a gunshop and get a .50 caliber machine gun and mount for my pickup. So Bush sucks.

My old man always told me that if you sit on a fence long enough that it's gonna fall eventually and you'll have to pick a side. Its all a bout working as a country to get this done. But till you get rid of all the OLD leaders and bring in some new people your going to still have the same problems and issues that we're dealing with now.

 

[Skookum]

There is absolutely nothing wrong in thinking for yourself, versus having others think for you.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Tis a pity that more sensible (like myself) do not get involved in politics...

i will, whenever i get old enough.....
i just need to raise around 100k bucks to spend on campaign to get a seat in the congress....

pretty good bang for the buck in terms of power over the destiny of people...
to influence the lives of 1000 americans it would cost an arm and a leg in campaign... to influece the same number of peruvians (who need a good influence a gazillion times more than americans) costs like 1/100th....

or i can start a school for 50 kids in a rural place with 80% iliteracy rates for as little as 50k bucks and 10k a year..... it amazes me how little is required to do so much change in the world, and yet people trying to make changes in those places where they get the least bang for the buck....

am gonna start making my RideMonkey raffle thread.....
fluff, wanna be my advisor?? and chip in a few coins? neaky: