Getting my fox RC pushed.
- Thread starter Joe
- Start date
My friend does, let me talk to him and I will get back to you on this.
I just had a shock PUSHED for my wifes bike, go for it!!!!!!
Its been sent away. Looking forward to it. I just want to know if it has any extenral tuning capabilities other than rebound compression. I'm not sure what it is to be honest as my shock needed servicing and it wasnt much more to get it PUSHED. But by the sound of it i done the right thing. Thanks peeps
Brian, Brian, Brian....Brian HCM#1 said:
Can you adjust the platform? No.Joe said:Anyone got any experience with a race specced fox rc. What sort of tuning capabilities will i have, will it still remain plush? Can i adjust the platform? will it be the best thing ever?
Joe
It will be valved for your weight, this could be a big change, or a little change, based on many variables.
A DHX has adjustable pedaling, progression, compression, rebound and preload. Is that what you are looking for?
This is BS quit deleteing my posts who ever you are.
WhatAcadian said:Brian, Brian, Brian....
Jm,
Can the platform be adjusted, the answer is actually YES. With the Race Systems kit we actually remove the stock "linear" valve located in the reservoir and replace it with a "digressive" unit which is controlled by the external compression adjuster.
As for the DHX, you can't actually classify it as having both adjustable "platform" and "compression" damping when they're the same thing. "Platform", "Pro-Pedal", "SPV", "CVT", etc, are all terms use to describe a digressive damping characteristic. This is a charactersitc that's built into the shock that causes a "delay" in the opening of the valving.
What the DHX does offer is greater displacement and larger piston area over the RC which aid in tuning and performance under more aggressive conditions. As you mentioned, the adjustable position sensitivity combined with the new bump stop design and material, give the DHX vastly improved bottoming control over the RC package.
Later,
Darren Murphy
Push Industries
Can the platform be adjusted, the answer is actually YES. With the Race Systems kit we actually remove the stock "linear" valve located in the reservoir and replace it with a "digressive" unit which is controlled by the external compression adjuster.
As for the DHX, you can't actually classify it as having both adjustable "platform" and "compression" damping when they're the same thing. "Platform", "Pro-Pedal", "SPV", "CVT", etc, are all terms use to describe a digressive damping characteristic. This is a charactersitc that's built into the shock that causes a "delay" in the opening of the valving.
What the DHX does offer is greater displacement and larger piston area over the RC which aid in tuning and performance under more aggressive conditions. As you mentioned, the adjustable position sensitivity combined with the new bump stop design and material, give the DHX vastly improved bottoming control over the RC package.
Later,
Darren Murphy
Push Industries
So the PUSH now has a platform? I thought it was shims and low speed compression? So inputs below the threshold are ingored by the shock? (the way a platform works).PUSHIND said:
Thank you, but I didn't classify it has having adjustable "platform" and "compression" damping. Try reading my post, I said adjustable "pedaling", and why did I do this? Because it has no platform, there is no "threshold". Shock inputs are damped when the propedal adjuster is used, not ingored, as a "platform" shock does.
The DHX has adjustable propedal, which is low speed compression with a blowoff. By adjusting the propedal, you adjust either lighter or heavier amounts of low speed compression.
On top of that, air pressure adjusts overall compression, seems to affect high speed most noticably, but more of an "overal" adjustment.
How do I know?
I did it today.
Sorry I am all worked up (and enjoying some shiner bock), but this sounds like a lot of marketing BS here, brought to you by PUSH. Spreading misinformation about a competitors product to PUSH your own?
I could easily put you on the spot - but I'll save you the embarrassment.Brian HCM#1 said:What
thats a mate for yaAcadian said:
BUY HOPES!!partsbara said:thats a mate for ya
do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do it do itAcadian said:
PUSHIND said:
darren just a quickie question, when you talk about a "delay" in the opening of the compression valve, do you mean a delay in time, or a certain threshold of oil speed?
Finally an engineer we can understand. You rule Darren!PUSHIND said:
Joe said:Anyone got any experience with a race specced fox rc. What sort of tuning capabilities will i have, will it still remain plush? Can i adjust the platform? will it be the best thing ever?
Joe
I aint got no Engineering degree (B.S.) or no On-line Engineering degree (BS) or any higher edjumucation degree, but one thing I do know...
I Pushed my RC and I absolutely love it. It's feels more plush than the Romic it replaced. I'm very, very happy with it. And Push's customer service was second to none; How many companies call you just to say that they just received the shock, and will be shipping it back within 2 days?
:heart: Jm,
My intention wasn't to get you worked up, just post on the subject. My apologies for mis-quoting you in regards to your statement about adjustments.
"So the PUSH now has a platform? I thought it was shims and low speed compression? So inputs below the threshold are ingored by the shock? (the way a platform works)."
Again, "Platform" and "Threshold" are just terms to describe a charateristic. This characteristic can be built into the shock in many ways depending on the manufacturer. The Fox RC does it by using preloaded valving shims, the Fox DHX does it by using a valve that's preloaded by IFP pressure and a coil spring, and the Manitou and Progressive dampers use a pressurized(preloaded) valve that sits on top of the piston face. What all of the systems have in common is that they all use a system that causes a delay in the shocks movement. By delay, I'm refering to force. Think back 3 years to the production Vanilla RC. With this shock you have a flat piston and flat shims that sit on top of it that control the damping. As the shock gets compressed the shims bend open and allow oil to flow. The more you bend the shims, the greater the resistance they produce. That's the basics. Fast forward to the '04 Propedal RC. Instead of using a flat piston face, imagine that it's concaved and the shims now sit concaved on the face when tightened down. Because the shims are already preloaded, you have to achieve a hydraulic force greater than the preload on the shims before they'll flex open allowing the shock to move. With this system, the greater the dish on the piston the greater the delay or resistance to opening, hence the greater the "ProPedal" effect. Also, because the RC has an additional valve located in the reservoir and an external adjuster that controls it, you can build the majority of the "ProPedal" characteristic there at the valve which allows you to focus the "bump" valving at the piston.
As for the DHX, it utilizes a valve that has the air pressure from the IFP on one side of it, and a coil spring attached to the ProPedal adjuster on the other side. The air pressure keeps the valve closed until the force being produced by the piston rod displacement opens it up allowing the shock to move. Picture a full glass of water. When you stick your finger into it, water spills outside of the glass. This is basically what happens inside a shock absorber. When the piston rod moves into the shock body the oil that it's displacing moves into the reservoir. Anyway, by turning the Propedal adjuster you're adjusting the preload on the coil spring that sits on top of this valve, hence increasing or decreasing the amount of force that the piston rod has to generate before the valve opens. If you increase the IFP pressure, you'd have to increase the Propedal dial to maintain the same level of valve delay and vise versa.
I'm a huge fan of Fox products becuase of their quaility and performance. I'm not a competitor of Fox, I'm a tuner of their product. We don't fix design problems with Fox shocks, we tune them to be more specific to applications. I'm also not trying spam or sell on the boards, nor am I trying to make people on the boards angry. Just the opposite actually. I'm just trying to be a resource for information.
My apologies again,
Darren Murphy
Push Industries
My intention wasn't to get you worked up, just post on the subject. My apologies for mis-quoting you in regards to your statement about adjustments.
"So the PUSH now has a platform? I thought it was shims and low speed compression? So inputs below the threshold are ingored by the shock? (the way a platform works)."
Again, "Platform" and "Threshold" are just terms to describe a charateristic. This characteristic can be built into the shock in many ways depending on the manufacturer. The Fox RC does it by using preloaded valving shims, the Fox DHX does it by using a valve that's preloaded by IFP pressure and a coil spring, and the Manitou and Progressive dampers use a pressurized(preloaded) valve that sits on top of the piston face. What all of the systems have in common is that they all use a system that causes a delay in the shocks movement. By delay, I'm refering to force. Think back 3 years to the production Vanilla RC. With this shock you have a flat piston and flat shims that sit on top of it that control the damping. As the shock gets compressed the shims bend open and allow oil to flow. The more you bend the shims, the greater the resistance they produce. That's the basics. Fast forward to the '04 Propedal RC. Instead of using a flat piston face, imagine that it's concaved and the shims now sit concaved on the face when tightened down. Because the shims are already preloaded, you have to achieve a hydraulic force greater than the preload on the shims before they'll flex open allowing the shock to move. With this system, the greater the dish on the piston the greater the delay or resistance to opening, hence the greater the "ProPedal" effect. Also, because the RC has an additional valve located in the reservoir and an external adjuster that controls it, you can build the majority of the "ProPedal" characteristic there at the valve which allows you to focus the "bump" valving at the piston.
As for the DHX, it utilizes a valve that has the air pressure from the IFP on one side of it, and a coil spring attached to the ProPedal adjuster on the other side. The air pressure keeps the valve closed until the force being produced by the piston rod displacement opens it up allowing the shock to move. Picture a full glass of water. When you stick your finger into it, water spills outside of the glass. This is basically what happens inside a shock absorber. When the piston rod moves into the shock body the oil that it's displacing moves into the reservoir. Anyway, by turning the Propedal adjuster you're adjusting the preload on the coil spring that sits on top of this valve, hence increasing or decreasing the amount of force that the piston rod has to generate before the valve opens. If you increase the IFP pressure, you'd have to increase the Propedal dial to maintain the same level of valve delay and vise versa.
I'm a huge fan of Fox products becuase of their quaility and performance. I'm not a competitor of Fox, I'm a tuner of their product. We don't fix design problems with Fox shocks, we tune them to be more specific to applications. I'm also not trying spam or sell on the boards, nor am I trying to make people on the boards angry. Just the opposite actually. I'm just trying to be a resource for information.
My apologies again,
Darren Murphy
Push Industries
so how does the so called Boost Valve work then? and where is it located, in the main piston valve stack, or on the reservoir end?PUSHIND said:
Zedro,
The "Boost Vavle" refers more to an action than an actual component because this is the same valve that controls a variety of compression damping. The valve is located at the underside of the external ProPedal adjuster.
As I mentioned earlier, the valve located in the reservior is pressurized on one side by the IFP pressure. As the piston rod displaces fluid into the reservior, the air presssure in the IFP chamber gets compressed, hence applying more force to the underside of the valve. The greater the displacement(shock being compressed), the greater the force required to displace the fluid into the reservoir through this valve. It's an extremely effective and creative way of increasing damping force at the end of the stroke. Hats off to the people at Fox for coming up with this one.
Later,
Darren
The "Boost Vavle" refers more to an action than an actual component because this is the same valve that controls a variety of compression damping. The valve is located at the underside of the external ProPedal adjuster.
As I mentioned earlier, the valve located in the reservior is pressurized on one side by the IFP pressure. As the piston rod displaces fluid into the reservior, the air presssure in the IFP chamber gets compressed, hence applying more force to the underside of the valve. The greater the displacement(shock being compressed), the greater the force required to displace the fluid into the reservoir through this valve. It's an extremely effective and creative way of increasing damping force at the end of the stroke. Hats off to the people at Fox for coming up with this one.
Later,
Darren
I've heard all of that before, and I agree with it, but the reality of a 5th element or Curnutt style shock is that impacts below the threshold do not activate the shock, resulting in poor low-speed performance in some cases. I can definitely notice the "delay" in a variety of riding conditions.PUSHIND said:
With the DHX, it's different. Adjusting the propedal makes the bike pedal noticably better, but it doesn't "ruin" the travel by ignoring low speed impacts. It dampens them out. I can turn the propedal up about halfway on my fox and I barely notice a performance decrease compared to the "zero" propedal setting. Take a 5th element and pump it up to 120psi, you'll notice a pretty big difference and it won't ride nearly as well as it did at 75psi. It will pedal better, and I think the extent to which it pedals better is more than the DHX, but the 5th exceeds the "usefull range" IMO, you can set the threshold so high that it completely ruins the ride. Yesterday I did notice a pretty big difference between the full propedal setting and zero setting (I started down a DH trail with it in my "climb up the acess road" mode), only when I got to some real choppy rocks did I notice what I had done, but it didn't make the shock feel "horrible", as the 5th can feel when you pump the PSI way up there.
Jm,
Lower seal friction, larger gas volume, superior valve design and just outright engineering horsepower on the part of Fox are what you're sensing at the seat of your pants.
You could take the same packaging and change the seal squeeze, decrease the gas volume, and modify the valve slightly and end up with a completely different functioning unit. Also, different companies put more focus on certain characteristics.
Darren
Lower seal friction, larger gas volume, superior valve design and just outright engineering horsepower on the part of Fox are what you're sensing at the seat of your pants.
You could take the same packaging and change the seal squeeze, decrease the gas volume, and modify the valve slightly and end up with a completely different functioning unit. Also, different companies put more focus on certain characteristics.
Darren
I think JM_ must just go out and forget about riding cause he's so overly obsessed with his shock...my goodness...he's a tech weenie.
Not to mention JM_ that I can't believe you'de question to whether or not Darren knows what he's talking about. And yes, I believe it was Darren that plugged ECs bike into a palm pilot at the bottom of the snowmass NCS course...yeah...he's able to look at suspension variables on a palm pilot but you can sit there and tell him he has no idea what he's talking about in terms of his own shock features....he wont call you out because it wouldn't look good and he's a good business man.
I on the other hand have zero affiliation with PUSH and nothing to loose...I will call you out and tell you to give respect where respect is due...
I on the other hand have zero affiliation with PUSH and nothing to loose...I will call you out and tell you to give respect where respect is due...
Um, thats exactly what i was going to say. I had a push RC last season on my nicolai, and I must say that it was one of the best feeling shocks ive ever ridden. The thing outshined the Swinger 6 i had for a backup, and a friend of mine just got a pushed RC for his fly, hes had a Romic, Propedal Fox, and a Curnutt on there, and the Push RC kills the others in overall perfomance. Im back on a Swinger4 because it came on my frame and im trying to get rid of it to get back on a Push.neversummersnow said:
and Darren, dont feel like youre spamming or anything, DW does it all the time
oh...and i cant say I'm am completly without bias here, I put the TURNER DHR shock that the Turner/Honda guys were running on my gemini...man, it was unbelievable what darren did to these shocks.
for the record it was a perfect swap (8.5" 165lbs to 7.1" 200 lbs)
for the record it was a perfect swap (8.5" 165lbs to 7.1" 200 lbs)
B
bighitfsr
Guest
Darren's initial response to JM was a little too dumbed down IMO.
I think that calling a "threshhold" a "delay" is confusing and JM was right to call that into question.
JM often comes off a little abrasive but IMO we need personalities like JM on RM.
I personally learned a lot about current shock technology from this thread.
"I think JM_ must just go out and forget about riding cause he's so overly obsessed with his shock...my goodness...he's a tech weenie."
Well more of us should be obsessed by the performance of suspension.
There is no point owning a top of the range shock like a the DHX and the fully adjustable models of the 5th and swinger and then not spending the time to properly adjust them. Most of the riders I know dont even have the right spring rate on their fox RC. One of the main members of my riding possie has his suspension setup so stiff that he has never bottomed out. He doesnt care that his 8 inch travel bike barely uses the half its travel. You've got to wonder why so many folks bother owning hideously expensive DH bikes when they cant be bothered tuning their suspension even at the most basic level (sag and spring rate).
I think that calling a "threshhold" a "delay" is confusing and JM was right to call that into question.
JM often comes off a little abrasive but IMO we need personalities like JM on RM.
I personally learned a lot about current shock technology from this thread.
"I think JM_ must just go out and forget about riding cause he's so overly obsessed with his shock...my goodness...he's a tech weenie."
Well more of us should be obsessed by the performance of suspension.
There is no point owning a top of the range shock like a the DHX and the fully adjustable models of the 5th and swinger and then not spending the time to properly adjust them. Most of the riders I know dont even have the right spring rate on their fox RC. One of the main members of my riding possie has his suspension setup so stiff that he has never bottomed out. He doesnt care that his 8 inch travel bike barely uses the half its travel. You've got to wonder why so many folks bother owning hideously expensive DH bikes when they cant be bothered tuning their suspension even at the most basic level (sag and spring rate).
Well, in the first post he didn't, mostly as a result of misquoting me and using "blanket statements" like "platform".neversummersnow said:
I know he knows more than he originally represented, but it was pretty poor initially.
Nobody is special on this site, that includes me, you, and darren at Push.
I agree here, I'm just saying that there are many instances where making a quarter turn of adjustment MIGHT be the reason I just rode that rock garden so well, or MAYBE it's just because I'm having a good day, and am in a much better MENTAL/PHYSICAL place....that's my point. I am one to play with my suspension a lot, just for the heck of it, but in the end, a lot of my adjustments may or may not be doing the job just because I think we as riders who don't ride DH every single day may neglect to realize you've got good days and you've got bad days...there is nothing you can do about it.....bighitfsr said:
Does it feel over-sprung?Joe said: