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GM says Merry Christmas to 30,000 employees...

robdamanii

OMG! <3 Tom Brady!
May 2, 2005
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GM has been crippled by high labor, pension, health care and materials costs as well as by sagging demand for sport utility vehicles, its longtime cash cows, and by bloated plant capacity. Its market share has been eroded by competition from Asian automakers led by Toyota Motor Corp. GM lost nearly $4 billion in the first nine months of the year.
Yep. Nobody want's a goddamned gas sucking beast of an SUV when you can get a hybrid from Toyota that gets twice the mileage with twice the style and the same amount of usable space. Apparently stupid American auto execs don't get that idea yet.
 

Brian HCM#1

MMMMMMMMM BEER!!!!!!!!!!
Sep 7, 2001
31,463
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Bay Area, California
robdamanii said:
Yep. Nobody want's a goddamned gas sucking beast of an SUV when you can get a hybrid from Toyota that gets twice the mileage with twice the style and the same amount of usable space. Apparently stupid American auto execs don't get that idea yet.
Did you know the Toyota Land Cruiser sucks a lot of gas too? I like our gas guzzling vehicles. It's not fair to compare an SUV to a rechargeable vacuum.
 

robdamanii

OMG! <3 Tom Brady!
May 2, 2005
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Brian HCM#1 said:
Did you know the Toyota Land Cruiser sucks a lot of gas too? I like our gas guzzling vehicles. It's not fair to compare an SUV to a rechargeable vacuum.
Sequoia hybrid, or whichever model it is and the Lexus Hybrid SUV? They're very comparable to any American SUV, and the Lexus is even more luxurious than even the nicest American SUV I've ever been privvy to see.

I don't like the size of American SUVs (or cars for that matter) or their style. And frankly, I'd never buy an SUV anyway unless it was a Hybrid.

MMike said:
....but is 345317 times more reliable....
Yeah, that too.
 

Brian HCM#1

MMMMMMMMM BEER!!!!!!!!!!
Sep 7, 2001
31,463
36
Bay Area, California
robdamanii said:
I don't like the size of American SUVs (or cars for that matter) or their style. And frankly, I'd never buy an SUV anyway unless it was a Hybrid.



Yeah, that too.
To have the room to haul kids and stuff around the American SUV's are great.
 

Slugman

Frankenbike
Apr 29, 2004
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robdamanii said:
Yep. Nobody want's a goddamned gas sucking beast of an SUV when you can get a hybrid from Toyota that gets twice the mileage with twice the style and the same amount of usable space.
Maybe where you live... around here there are more hummers on the road than VWs!
 

douglas

Chocolate Milk Doug
May 15, 2002
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MMike said:
....but is 345317 times more reliable....

yeah...I was real dispointed about the amount of times I had to get work done on my american made suv....106,000 miles and I had to bring it in twice - talk about junk :rolleyes:
 

Brian HCM#1

MMMMMMMMM BEER!!!!!!!!!!
Sep 7, 2001
31,463
36
Bay Area, California
Joe Pozer said:
That is still less times in the shop than your Durango.

If GM designed cars that sold all this talk about pension and health care costs wouldn't be too much of an issue. Unfortunately, this is what happens when you have to practically give your cars away in order to sell them.
I will never buy another Chrysler product EVER, I did love my Jeep Grand Cherokee, but the Durango was a total POS. However I do love and support GM vehicles.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
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Big vehicles are nice. Americans are spoiled, we like big cars, but no one can convince me they NEED one. Being spoiled we also cry like children when fuel costs make our toys more expensive to use.
 

MTB_Rob_NC

What do I have to do to get you in this car TODAY?
Nov 15, 2002
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robdamanii said:
Sequoia hybrid, or whichever model it is and the Lexus Hybrid SUV? They're very comparable to any American SUV, and the Lexus is even more luxurious than even the nicest American SUV I've ever been privvy to see.
They are also considerably more expensive. Especially the Hybrids.

GM's problems are 2 fold.

1) The legacy costs for Unionized labor (hourly rate, health care and pension costs are killing them)

2) Lack of a demand driven product. Currently GM (and Ford as well, Chrysler is doing better) have very little in the demand driven product.

Dont feel too sorry for the 30,000 employees getting laid off. For the most part they will be eligible for 80% of their pay for probably up to 3 years.
 

Velocity Girl

whack-a-mole
Sep 12, 2001
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Atlanta
Westy said:
Big vehicles are nice. Americans are spoiled, we like big cars, but no one can convince me they NEED one. Being spoiled we also cry like children when fuel costs make our toys more expensive to use.

You need one if you're towing.
 

robdamanii

OMG! <3 Tom Brady!
May 2, 2005
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I Are Baboon said:
Ok, so most people. :blah:

Westy said:
Big vehicles are nice. Americans are spoiled, we like big cars, but no one can convince me they NEED one. Being spoiled we also cry like children when fuel costs make our toys more expensive to use.
Exactly. You have kids? Buy a mini-van, station wagon or family sedan.

Mtb_Rob_FL said:
They are also considerably more expensive. Especially the Hybrids.

GM's problems are 2 fold.

1) The legacy costs for Unionized labor (hourly rate, health care and pension costs are killing them)

2) Lack of a demand driven product. Currently GM (and Ford as well, Chrysler is doing better) have very little in the demand driven product.

Dont feel too sorry for the 30,000 employees getting laid off. For the most part they will be eligible for 80% of their pay for probably up to 3 years.
I'd rather pay more for a vehicle that will last longer and be of (in my opinion) better quality and fit my lifestyle/personality better.

And that was my point...there is no demand for what they're doing, and they just keep releasing more crap that has no demand.


Frankly, after having 2 American cars, I'll NEVER, EVER, EVER purcahse an American built auto again in my life.
 

I Are Baboon

Run, Forrest, Run!
Aug 6, 2001
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Westy said:
Big vehicles are nice. Americans are spoiled, we like big cars, but no one can convince me they NEED one.
If people only bought what they NEEDED, they'd own hardly anything.

[off topic]
Hey, I just discovered a cool new feature on RM. Highlight a block of text, then click and drag it to another area in your post. NEAT!
[/off topic]
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
36,936
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Sleazattle
I Are Baboon said:
If people only bought what they NEEDED, they'd own hardly anything.
Kind of my point. But most people are very confused with what they need and what they want and will use the word need instead of want 99% of the time.
 

I Are Baboon

Run, Forrest, Run!
Aug 6, 2001
29,457
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Westy said:
Kind of my point. But most people are very confused with what they need and what they want and will use the word need instead of want 99% of the time.
Screw that, try the new click and drag feature! :dancing:
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
36,936
3,759
Sleazattle
Screw that, try the new click and drag feature!

Cool, If it imported the quote tags with the text it would blow my mind.
 

MTB_Rob_NC

What do I have to do to get you in this car TODAY?
Nov 15, 2002
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Charlotte, NC
robdamanii said:
I'd rather pay more for a vehicle that will last longer and be of (in my opinion) better quality and fit my lifestyle/personality better.
Well rather and being able to is a VERY big difference. In this case around $10,000.

Do you currently have, or will you be willing to part with an additional $10 GRAND to make that fit? That is an additional $200 p/month on a standard 60 month financing deal Fyi...




That decision starts to get a little grey doesnt it? :evil:
 

robdamanii

OMG! <3 Tom Brady!
May 2, 2005
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Mtb_Rob_FL said:
Well rather and being able to is a VERY big difference. In this case around $10,000.

Do you currently have, or will you be willing to part with an additional $10 GRAND to make that fit? That is an additional $200 p/month on a standard 60 month financing deal Fyi...




That decision starts to get a little grey doesnt it? :evil:
I'd pay more for a NON hybrid foreign vehicle. I've found import vehicles to be mechanically more sound and better appointed than comparable American vehicles.

And for my purposes (short commutes to work around town, occasional hauling of large amounts of junk) I'd prefer the hybrid for my lifestlye. Yes, even for the extra cost.
 

MTB_Rob_NC

What do I have to do to get you in this car TODAY?
Nov 15, 2002
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Charlotte, NC
robdamanii said:
I
And for my purposes (short commutes to work around town, occasional hauling of large amounts of junk) I'd prefer the hybrid for my lifestlye. Yes, even for the extra cost.
We already know what you would prefer, as you have mentioned it. Now be honest (at least with yourself), can you afford the extra 10k, or 200 per month?


As far as just Hybrids are concerned, it is great that they are starting to come online. However just the difference in the same vehicle non-hybrid to hybrid is any where from 5-7k.

At that rate you would have to drive the vehicle for close to 100,000 miles to see any price vs fuel savings. How many miles do you drive per year? Do you, or would you want to keep a vehicle that long?
 

robdamanii

OMG! <3 Tom Brady!
May 2, 2005
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Mtb_Rob_FL said:
We already know what you would prefer, as you have mentioned it. Now be honest (at least with yourself), can you afford the extra 10k, or 200 per month?


As far as just Hybrids are concerned, it is great that they are starting to come online. However just the difference in the same vehicle non-hybrid to hybrid is any where from 5-7k.

At that rate you would have to drive the vehicle for close to 100,000 miles to see any price vs fuel savings. How many miles do you drive per year? Do you, or would you want to keep a vehicle that long?
Currently I'm not in the position of needing or affording a new off the lot vehicle, so I can't say that I would do that currently. However, in the future it will certainly be something i'll be looking at.

100K really isn't that much. I drive cars that I enjoy driving and that are comfortable for me and fit my needs. If the vehicle still works after 100K, why trade just for something newer? I've got 182K on my Subaru, and I don't intend to get rid of it until it dies on me, that's about how much I like how it rides and performs. The aount of driving I'll be doing will depend on where I'm employed and where I'm living at the time. If I'm feasibly driving more than 25K a year in commuting alone, I'd put the hybrid dead at the top of my list, and I'd be very safe in the knowledge that it would last me more than 4 years (to the point of seeing a return on investment, so to speak).
 

HarryCallahan

Monkey
Sep 29, 2004
229
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SC mtns
Westy said:
Mini-van? I still don't see the need for a minivan unless you have more than 3 kids.
Westy,

I've been driving a Toyota Corolla Station wagon for 10 years. It's an awesome little car, consistent 30 mpg, reliable mechanically, decent performance with the 5-speed stick and DOHC 16 valve motor. I've got over 180K miles on it and it is still looking good and running strong. And it is a fun commuter car.

But it is a small car. The backseat is barely big enough for average size adults, as OK to go out for dinner, but you wouldn't want to be back there more than a couple hours. And take it camping or on vacation with more than two people? fuggedaboutit.

I mean, I've done it, but load the car down, and it wallows like a pig, and even with two adults and a child in the car, you pack around the person in the back seat.

We bought a mini van this year because we need the seat space for friends and family activities, and we need the cargo space for family trips. Pricing and fuel economy for the mini van was comparable to sedans, so to us, the decision why why not get more utility and flexibility at a given price.
 

HarryCallahan

Monkey
Sep 29, 2004
229
0
SC mtns
N8 makes a good point about Toyota reliability. They are rock solid dependable, and you buy one new expecting to get 150K to 200K miles of trouble free operation from one. The hybrids don't have the long term track record yet, but Toyota is pretty conservative and I wouldn't bet against them


I think Mtb_Rob_Fl is making some good points. But new is not the only choice out there. When we decided to look at mini vans, we narrowed it down to 2 models: Dodge Caravan or Toyota Sienna. We couldn't affor a new Toyota. Reports on the Caravans were that they were a solid choice, good for about 100K miles of service life, but that we should then expect to do a major engine overhaul. And depreciation on used Caravans reflected this. But the Toyotas were considered good for roughly twice the service life of the Dodges with nothing more than routine maintenance and tire replacement. with careful shopping, we were able to pick off a used, low mileage, Toyota for about the price of a new Dodge.

Moving on to the general subject of the thread, the American auto makers went through this back in the 70's with the OPEC embargoes. Maybe if instead of fighting off higher federal fuel standards, the big 3 had worked voluntarily to make more fuel efficient, reliable vehicles in all classes, they'd be in better shape now.
 

blt2ride

Turbo Monkey
May 25, 2005
2,334
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Chatsworth
N8 said:
I'd always pay a premium for Toyota's reliablilty.... no question there.
I tend to agree. I currently have a 2 year old Chevy truck, which has been back to the dealer more times than I can care to remember. This truck was my first chevy product--and my last.

When you take Chevy's reputation and add in what they pay their employees (with benefits, wages, vacations, etc.), this shouldn't be a surprise to anyone...
 

rooftest

Monkey
Jul 10, 2005
612
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OC, CA
douglas said:
yeah...I was real dispointed about the amount of times I had to get work done on my american made suv....106,000 miles and I had to bring it in twice - talk about junk :rolleyes:
...If you had bought Japanese, that number would be zero or one.

I'd really love it if the US auto companies would get it together, but I don't see it happening yet....
 

MTB_Rob_NC

What do I have to do to get you in this car TODAY?
Nov 15, 2002
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I Are Baboon said:
You serious, Clark?
Yep, go ahead and try it with say any other website. Click and drag text to and from pretty much anything.

From a website to an email etc etc