[pe6u]

Halo, long time reader, but writing for first time here:
I'm riding first generation Nukeproof Mega - 26", So far I used coil fork - Fox Van 36 RC2 and coil shock - Marzhocci Rocco TST - with climb switch. I like this setup very much, but recently put Pike in front. I saved a lot of weight and didn't lose much of the performance. I think I'm aggressive rider, I race Enduro (and usually wining in my category), but races and weight are not my first priority - downhill performance is all that maters. I've been reading all the praises for Fox Float X2. So please share your thoughts: is it wise to invest in air shock for that "obsolete" frame, not knowing if I'll gain anything over the coil, or ride what I got. I can't really complain of my recent shock, but cant' stop wandering if it could be better with all the tuning options of the X2.

 

[kickstand]

Obviously every frame is different and we all have different preferences. But when I ran an air shock on my V-10 it felt like I was riding a trail bike that was being overwhelmed by the terrain, especially in high speed chunky sections of trail. Switching to a coil the bike feels like it settles into its travel and tracks the ground much better.

I have a pike on the trail bike and it always seems to be handling things fine, same with the float 40 on the DH bike. I don't think I have a need to switch back to a coil for my forks.

 

[Jm_]

The TST is a fairly old coil shock that didn't exactly shine, not as much as the roco WC for straight bump absorption, a new fox X2 might be a significant upgrade. I'm on a tuned monarch+ and it's a lot of fun downhill, better than my stock coil RC4, but for repetitive downhill a coil is usually the best idea from the durability and constant-spring characteristics.

 

[Udi]

Halo, long time reader, but writing for first time here:
I'm riding first generation Nukeproof Mega - 26", So far I used coil fork - Fox Van 36 RC2 and coil shock - Marzhocci Rocco TST - with climb switch. I like this setup very much, but recently put Pike in front. I saved a lot of weight and didn't lose much of the performance. I think I'm aggressive rider, I race Enduro (and usually wining in my category), but races and weight are not my first priority - downhill performance is all that maters. I've been reading all the praises for Fox Float X2. So please share your thoughts: is it wise to invest in air shock for that "obsolete" frame, not knowing if I'll gain anything over the coil, or ride what I got. I can't really complain of my recent shock, but cant' stop wandering if it could be better with all the tuning options of the X2.

I think you are better off sticking to a coil shock. Frame kinematics have a large impact on how well an air shock will work in each scenario, and the Mega isn't particularly well optimised for it - so if downhill performance is your main priority like you said, definitely stick with the coil.

What might be a good idea is trying a different coil shock if you are looking to invest - I find the 2015 small-shaft RC4 is always an excellent choice, or if you need a lockout, the new 2017 X2 coil shock with climb switch should be quite a good option as well. Both will perform noticeably better than a Float X2 in that particular frame.

Don't get me wrong - the Float X2 is a very good choice for an air shock, but it's always going to have higher friction than a coil shock, and still has a nonlinear spring curve that will only work optimally in a frame that is designed for it. Of course it will work sufficiently well for many people, and it's an upgrade over other *air* shocks - just not really over a good coil shock.

My experience with switching to air is similar to what kickstand said here:

when I ran an air shock on my V-10 it felt like I was riding a trail bike that was being overwhelmed by the terrain, especially in high speed chunky sections of trail. Switching to a coil the bike feels like it settles into its travel and tracks the ground much better.

 

[jimw]

Another option is a CCDB coil CS. If you still want to reduce the weight but maintain coil performance, check into Ti or other lighter springs (DHX2 already has a pretty light spring).

 

[pe6u]

Thanks a lot, great informative answers as ever. I know the leverage curve of the Mega fits coil shock better, I'll look at the shocks you proposed.

 

[kickstand]

I put the ccdb without climb switch on my bike to replace the air shock and I like it. Good suggestion.

 

[troy]

Maybe You should wait a little while. In a couple of days/weeks Cane Creek Inline Coil will be available, and it is crazy light, even with a steel spring.

 

[pe6u]

You've got my attention, I'm not in hurry anyway.

 

[Mo(n)arch]

Maybe You should wait a little while. In a couple of days/weeks Cane Creek Inline Coil will be available, and it is crazy light, even with a steel spring.

You already said too much.
And, yeah, you've got my attention too.

 

[troy]

216x63 (8.5x2.5) shock with steel spring (not sure about the springrate tho) should weight... around 380g (0.84 lb)

 

[Flo33]

216x63 (8.5x2.5) shock with steel spring (not sure about the springrate tho) should weight... around 380g (0.84 lb)

You sure? That's insanely light immo, easy bending breaking light tbh.

 

[troy]

I'm not 100% sure, because this info doesn't come directly from me, but from "lizard ppl". That weight is insane, that's for sure. Proto Inline Coil body weighted 150g less than CCDB CS, so around 300g, and they said they can go even lighter. They said that they can reduce spring diameter as well to reduce the weight even further (probably using some super alloy steel like in honda/ext/stendec/fox sls springs).

THAT'S ALL I CAN SAY FOR NOW.

 

[kidwoo]

Brings back some fond memories

 

[SkaredShtles]

Brings back some fond memories

I've got one of those currently on my Reign... it's getting a bit long in the tooth.

 

[mykel]

I ve got an old 05 Rocky Slayer that my youngest will be on next year.
A nice inline coil would be an interesting choice to replace the beat to shit Pushed RP3 that is currently on it...
(They don't have clearance for a piggyback)

Anybody know if the linkage rate would play well with a coil?

 

[Flo33]

Anybody know if the linkage rate would play well with a coil?

A 2003 and a 2006 model should be in the web library of linkage. Unfortunately I uninstalled my linkage v2 demo at work and my personal license is installed at home, so I can't look it up right now. vrock's blog has a pita search feature, never returning any usable results, at least for the helpless/clueless hack of me.

 

[kidwoo]

Is it this one?




Scary

06 model slightly better for a coil.

 

[Udi]

216x63 (8.5x2.5) shock with steel spring (not sure about the springrate tho) should weight... around 380g (0.84 lb)

I'd say that's a typo, like @Flo33 said (and as you confirmed) you'd be worried about the shock disintegrating at that weight since a lightweight steel spring in that size would be at least 300g alone and even the lightest Ti around 210g.

I could be wrong but I think there is a big mistake somewhere in that claim.

 

[mykel]

Is it this one?




06 model slightly better for a coil.



View attachment 123114

That would explain the sitting in a hammock feeling

...as well as the huge difference the Push tune made.

 

[Jm_]

I'm not 100% sure, because this info doesn't come directly from me, but from "lizard ppl". That weight is insane, that's for sure. Proto Inline Coil body weighted 150g less than CCDB CS, so around 300g, and they said they can go even lighter. They said that they can reduce spring diameter as well to reduce the weight even further (probably using some super alloy steel like in honda/ext/stendec/fox sls springs).

THAT'S ALL I CAN SAY FOR NOW.

How many free rebuilds will it come with?

It might also be possible to reduce the weight even further with no damping at all, like the in-line air.

 

[troy]

I'd say that's a typo, like @Flo33 said (and as you confirmed) you'd be worried about the shock disintegrating at that weight since a lightweight steel spring in that size would be at least 300g alone and even the lightest Ti around 210g.

I could be wrong but I think there is a big mistake somewhere in that claim.

That's what i thought too, but it was verified with CC docs and it's not a typo. EXT Storia piggyback coil shock with a steel spring weights 620g with a huge 29mm dia. main piston. Now imagine, You remove the piggyback, reduce the dia. of the shock body (less oil, less material, smaller spring) and vuala You have a sub 1lb coil shock.

 

[SkaredShtles]

Fucking SHENANIGANS, I tell ya.

 

[kidwoo]

That's what i thought too, but it was verified with CC docs and it's not a typo. EXT Storia piggyback coil shock with a steel spring weights 620g with a huge 29mm dia. main piston. Now imagine, You remove the piggyback, reduce the dia. of the shock body (less oil, less material, smaller spring) and vuala You have a sub 1lb coil shock.

Considering the reputation CC has with their rear shocks, I bet that's going to be bomber as hell. Prolly last literally forever.

 

[Udi]

That's what i thought too, but it was verified with CC docs and it's not a typo. EXT Storia piggyback coil shock with a steel spring weights 620g with a huge 29mm dia. main piston. Now imagine, You remove the piggyback, reduce the dia. of the shock body (less oil, less material, smaller spring) and vuala You have a sub 1lb coil shock.

Got source? You should ask them which exact spring it's weighed with - because if it's a "lightweight steel" (not actually lightweight compared to a good Ti spring) then we have an entire damper that weighs as much as an XO shifter. If that's the case then I guarantee it'll break or blow up. The current CC dampers aren't particularly durable anyway (seen everything here from regularly blown seals, broken shafts, to shaft rocking/play in seal head) so forgive my lack of trust. If they're using a completely proprietary spring then we're opening a new can of worms of potential failure.

Don't get me wrong, I think development in this area is cool, but I think the numbers you're claiming are unrealistic for a reliable and durable product - and we're talking about a company with a poor track record in this respect already.

 

[mykel]

I have two CCDB coils, one is first generation ( black spring retainer threads) 2009?, It has been updated to the newer style adjusters (parabolic vs straight taper or some such). It is on my Knolly Delirium and used for DH duty by my oldest son. I also have a 2013, on my Knolly Podium that i ride.
Both have been solid, with nary an issue, but I do send them in regularly for service,

Maybe the Knolly with all the extra unnecessary pivots and such, isolate the shock from lateral or torsional movement better than something more directly connected?

 

[Jm_]

I have two CCDB coils, one is first generation ( black spring retainer threads) 2009?, It has been updated to the newer style adjusters (parabolic vs straight taper or some such). It is on my Knolly Delirium and used for DH duty by my oldest son. I also have a 2013, on my Knolly Podium that i ride.
Both have been solid, with nary an issue, but I do send them in regularly for service,

Maybe the Knolly with all the extra unnecessary pivots and such, isolate the shock from lateral or torsional movement better than something more directly connected?

Here you go: http://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspension/my-cane-creek-db-inline-experience-945125.html

 

[jstuhlman]

My ca. 2010 DBC (gold threads) has been flawless . . . especially seeing as it received literally NO service until its total overhaul by CC last year. I know the inlines had issues . . . but I have many friends on DBA's with zero problems/complaints.

 

[Udi]

Yeah I had 1x 2009 and 2x 2010 gold DBCs - 1x leaked out of the box, 1x started leaking halfway through a riding season in Europe (was brand new at start), and the 3rd one actually lasted okay but gave up after about 8 months. CC USA looked after me well, so no complaints about their service - sent out replacements before receiving mine.

A friend had a more recent gold DBC develop the shaft play and you can rock it with your hand (so the shaft isn't parallel with the body). I was told by a service center that this is a fairly common issue.

Anyway I know everything has issues and there's probably plenty that are fine, I just feel like removing a huge amount of mass from a product with already imperfect durability is a little wild.

 

[troy]

Got source? You should ask them which exact spring it's weighed with - because if it's a "lightweight steel" (not actually lightweight compared to a good Ti spring) then we have an entire damper that weighs as much as an XO shifter. If that's the case then I guarantee it'll break or blow up. The current CC dampers aren't particularly durable anyway (seen everything here from regularly blown seals, broken shafts, to shaft rocking/play in seal head) so forgive my lack of trust. If they're using a completely proprietary spring then we're opening a new can of worms of potential failure.

Don't get me wrong, I think development in this area is cool, but I think the numbers you're claiming are unrealistic for a reliable and durable product - and we're talking about a company with a poor track record in this respect already.

Look @Udi, I'm sceptical about those numbers too, but if You will look at a weight of mentioned by @kidwoo shock, the Fox Vanila R, it weights ~~550grams with 400lbs/in spring and reducers. Now remove the hardware, add a SLS spring and You are already in ~ 400g zone. That weight is probably with the lightest spring they could fit in there, so i guess it will be more like >400g, but still it is super light.

 

[Udi]

Look @Udi, I'm sceptical about those numbers too, but if You will look at a weight of mentioned by @kidwoo shock, the Fox Vanila R, it weights ~~550grams with 400lbs/in spring and reducers. Now remove the hardware, add a SLS spring and You are already in ~ 400g zone. That weight is probably with the lightest spring they could fit in there, so i guess it will be more like >400g, but still it is super light.

Yeah true, fair point - wasn't having a stab at you. I was genuinely curious where that number came from which is why I asked, mostly because the last article I saw on that shock was from 2015. After looking over the Vanilla R numbers I guess it's possible. There's some more here: http://weightweenies.starbike.com/listings/components.php?type=rearshocks

If they manage to make it durable under heavy use then it would be a nice option to have.

 

[jimw]

Interesting. I remember pics of the proto version of that inline coil shock surfacing about a year ago. Just checked their website and it's up there:
http://www.canecreek.com/products/suspension/dbcoil-il

Can't seem to find much info though, like specs/weight.

 

[jimw]

Looks like the page in that link does have a button to get info about their new "VALT" spring, looks like their version of the lighter weight springs Fox is using now.
http://www.canecreek.com/products/suspension/dbcoil-il/valt-spring

 

[jimw]

I take it back, specs ARE up, just didn't check all the various buttons:
http://www.canecreek.com/products/suspension/dbcoil-il/features

Weight: 285 grams (216 x63 damper only: weight varies by size)

That's like almost 1/2 lb off the regular version! If the thing is actually durable, could be an interesting option...

 

[StiHacka]

That's like almost 1/2 lb off the regular version! If the thing is actually durable

*crickets*

 

[Udi]

So if the damper is 285g, we'd need a 95g spring to meet the 380g "with spring" claim above. Considering the VALT's ID is 1.43" (standard) and made of steel, I'm going to call impossibru.

Still, that's real light. Cool to see, thanks for sharing @jimw .

@troy we have some numbers.

 

[tacubaya]

8.5 x 2.5 DB Coil IL with VALT 400 lbs/in spring is going to be around 600g.

 

[jimw]

That sounds about right. My old DB Coil is 8.5 x 2.5; the CC 550x2.5 steel spring that came with it is about 515g; I then had a super-light Ti one made by lite-spring, 475x2.5 is about 250g. Your guess puts the VALT 400x2.5 a little above that (315g) which seems reasonable. FWIW the 8.5x2.5 damper itself is right at 1 lb (454g), and the Ohlins TTX that replaced it is exactly the same.

 

[troy]

 

[troy]

So apparently lizard ppl can't read english. Dude summed the damper body weight with a spring weight SAVINGS and said it weights 380g (285g + 101.2g).

Anyway... 400lbs/in x2.5" VALT spring should weight 300g, so a 585g 216x63mm coil shock is still very light. For example 2.75" stroke CCDB Air weights ~540g.