Sorry guys, that's reasons.org, not reason 
god's chosen people
- Thread starter LordOpie
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That's the thing about trust...you have to have it.golgiaparatus said:LOL! The enemy. That's the grand finale in this thread
I liken pastors to really some of the nicest people in the world, though they are similar to a salesman in so many ways... albeit the nicest salesman in the world, their product is what they believe to be the most inportant thing in the world... and its FREE! Seriously, what a great gift to recieve from someone, the thing that they treasure the most... anyway, regardless of how great they are, they still have literature, just like any good salesman. Thats where the problem lies. If you go buy what the salesmans literature tells you then you are going to be sold. But if you do your own research, you might find out that the product is a useless pile of garbage OR you might find out that the literature is correct, yet, now you have some real questions for the salesman.
Anyway, the church's job is to bring you into their world... its your job to find the quirks and develop the questions, a good church can give you the answers, or can they?
In something, or someone. Or are you of the criminal/prison mindset "trust no man"
It is sad that you can only see the faults of the church and you seemingly only see the church as a political power which it came to after the rise of constantine and the "legalization" of christianity, but that is only a small portion of church history and to the church it is the saddest moment. Remember when the earliest christians had to die for their faith? Not go out and suicide bomb some car or something, just be put in a ring of lions for professing a God that threatened Nero. Also Luther and many others rebelled against the "mother church" when justification by faith ceased to be tought. You see the priests and the church folk used to use their power of literacy over the common folk. Most people could not read back then so whatever the priests said went and I am sure you can see were the corruption would be so great a temptation for perverted people with selfish agendas.fluff said:
Other than that the church is composed of people who have been touched by God and want to respond to His graces by serving Him and each other. Ridemonkey could easily be claimed as a church for mountainbikers; albeit a community of like minded believers to have accountability and relationships with each other. Is ride monkey a power source? A political power? You see I am not making statements to prove my point even just to show you different perspectives. The true church is not interested in taking or having power. We trust that God has all the power and the wars have come out of "hearing his will" you could say, being obedient.
Why is that a criminal mindset? So you are saying any of us who do not believe blindly without proof are of a criminal mindset? We have to not question anything and just regurgitate what we are told in order to 'believe'.Heath Sherratt said:
If that is what it takes for you to feel better about yourself, fine.
However to me it sounds like you are putting yourself above others, which is rather vain and arrogant of you. I do believe there was this guy Jesus who taught that such attitudes were wrong... you should try reading his book.
Find me a religion that has not faced persecution... and has not applied it as well.Heath Sherratt said:
So if you acknoledge that the leaders are corruptable, how can you say that what you read in the bible is not a product of this corruption? Other than "faith", which is just a belief that god exist - like kids and Santa, how do you KNOW you are reading the word of gawd?Heath Sherratt said:
Buddah made it very clear he was not a deity and told people so, yet they still claim he is and worship him, clearly against his teachings. Sounds a lot like some of the fools "following" Christ eh? He also claimed that he was not the truth the way and the light. Only one man has made that claim, and backed it up. Buddah has many great teachings i belive as anyone looking for the truth does, but Jesus IS the TRUTH. To me following someone who knows he only has some of it is like building up your stereo so you don't hear the problems with your car. It's a solution...just not the wisest.golgiaparatus said::dancing:
I think his teachings are my favorite of any "religion". They are just far more realistic than any other teachings that I have read.
Well, thats ends this discussion and is the lamest answer that I have heard over and over and over and over and over. Bam, conversation over, the wall is up.Heath Sherratt said:
However the textbook answer is not "trust" its "faith" close enough though
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Heh, when the vatican gives up all it's riches in order to help the poor I will be more apt to beleive that it is not all about power.Heath Sherratt said:
Discernment. Knowing when to trust and who. Trust no man is a common thread in prisoners. A popular tatto to get when on the inside. I said nothing about following blind people into ditches and wrecking your life. You love to put words in my mouth. You also attack my character and my responses with hostility and anger. I am merely replying to a question with information that I have. I am not trying to hurt people or "raise myself up" I am not putting anyone down either. Just communicating. Civilly. With respect and courtesy.Slugman said:
As for the word of God, it was written by several men over thousands of years, some of them having absolutly nothing to do with each other, yet all talking about the same man, the same God, not the same RULES, not the same religion. You'll see that those who followed God-Jehovah,Jahweh, Yeshua, had a relationship with Him personaly. Not just a you do this and do that. That's employment-something done for something gained. This is relational. The first followers did not even have a bible. The bible did not come to being until way after Christ died and rose. something like several hundred years after. The rules were something that the jews asked for because they were afraid of God and wanted to still reap the benefits of "being His" without having to be close to Him. Like kids who want their Grandpas inheritance but don't want to hang out with Him or even know him. There is lots to learn, if you want to learn it. This is only the sprinkles. Many scientists have tried to disprove the bible. You should try. You would be the first.
Thanks for playing.golgiaparatus said:Well, thats ends this discussion and is the lamest answer that I have heard over and over and over and over and over. Bam, conversation over, the wall is up.
However the textbook answer is not "trust" its "faith" close enough though
Saying the Vatican is the church is like saying the president is the united states.Tenchiro said:
Actually I think it is trust. What we were talking about was relationships and learning to trust the church and who is telling you what. You don't take the collective thought of the church and follow it blindly, you learn to trust people in the church and through your relationships you learn what is true and what is counterfeit.golgiaparatus said:Well, thats ends this discussion and is the lamest answer that I have heard over and over and over and over and over. Bam, conversation over, the wall is up.
However the textbook answer is not "trust" its "faith" close enough though
How do they "worship him"? They use him as an example, thats not against his teachings. These people have found as much enlightenment as any Christian. Yet they don't need an outside god to give them self satisfaction, and they dont rely on some supernatural thing.Heath Sherratt said:
Jesus IS the truth? To me Jesus was a good teacher, very similar to a teacher like Bhudda, they would have agree'd on many things and walked away from eachother better teachers. However, they woul have disagree'd as well, as soon as Jesus said, I'm the son of the one voice that is the creator of the univerese, born to a virgin mother.
I wish more people would say this is what I believe... not this IS the TRUTH (Jesus IS the TRUTH
how cliche can you get). It would put so much more value into what they say instead of making them look close minded.
And that's the way the cookie crumbles.
How do you do that if you never step outside that box?Heath Sherratt said:
How can you be a good teacher if you are a liar? and insane? Because either Jesus was who he says He was or he is a nut. If you have ever been to a buddah temple, wait isn't a temple a place of worship? anyway, if you have ever been you would see the giant golden buddah that could feed a small nation with if you melted it and sold it, then you would know that they do worship him, well some of them do. some of them are just there for themselves. It's obvious we cannot change each others mind. If there are specific questions you have of the faith i would love to answer them for you, other than that I see no purpose for this anymore. Do you?golgiaparatus said:How do they "worship him"? They use him as an example, thats not against his teachings. These people have found as much enlightenment as any Christian. Yet they don't need an outside god to give them self satisfaction, and they dont rely on some supernatural thing.
Jesus IS the truth? To me Jesus was a good teacher, very similar to a teacher like Bhudda, they would have agree'd on many things and walked away from eachother better teachers. However, they woul have disagree'd as well, as soon as Jesus said, I'm the son of the one voice that is the creator of the univerese, born to a virgin mother.
I wish more people would say this is what I believe... not this IS the TRUTH (Jesus IS the TRUTH
Jesus was a very wise teacher, no doubt. Live life as Christ would have lived it and you will probably live a full satisfying life. I've always wondered this:Andyman_1970 said:
Jesus probably got a lot of who he was from his surroundings (he was human afterall, why would God cheat himself of that part of being human). I wonder if his life had occurred in a different place at a different time... would he would have had different ideas, a different view, maybe more similar to the religeout teachers of the region...
Bro, I wasn't born inthe church. I was an atheist up until seven years ago.golgiaparatus said:
I studied philosophy, cultural anthropolgy, psychology, language, history, religions, and human nature. I was into poetry, drugs and relativism. Searching for truth was my daily quest. I hated Christians for knowing it all and most other religions I found myself drawn to. I jumped into all of them one at a time as each one would leave me wanting and empty. It wasn't until God revealed himself to me that I ever knew who He was. If you knew me before you would know that I am a very different person now. My mother has since given her life to Christ simply because of the power of what He has done in mine. I don't speak from inside a box, I speak from the experience of searching every day with all my heart and finding Him faithful and loving.
It's called koinonia i belive, the fullness of time. God could only have come then and at that period of time to achieve His purpose, He knows what he is doing. Intersting thought though, I have gone down that road several times.golgiaparatus said:
Ha Ha Ha - if you think that I am attacking you, you should see some of the post between myself and the right winger mob that post garbage around here!Heath Sherratt said:
My responses are no more angry than yours, but if you feel like they are then you need to examine why you interpret them that way...
Actually yeah, I do... I see you talking through your arse, casting judgement, and thinking that you are in the right and you are not. You are attacking an organized philosophy/religion that is not much different than any other, in that is has monuments that symbolize a place that like minded people gather. I've seen Christian churches that have enough construction cost and enough pricey crap in them to build an entire plot of land with houses for homeless people to live (I dont use them to bash on the ideas of the religion itself though) because I have also seen small churches that have not much more than a big wooden cross and a basketball gym as a "house of god"... likewise I have seen way too elaborate temples, I have also seen tiny rented rooms used as a temple. So what you have said means nothing. Yeah some "bhuddists" do have the wrong ideas... and they worship him, they misunderstand the teachings. No different than some of the nuts that have worshipped Jesus over the years... Read the book, Mine eyes have seen the glory... required reading for many christian colleges, a damn fine book in my eyes, I have read it twice.Heath Sherratt said:
We are not talking about politics here are we, or money, or the prople that have bastardized the key ideas that make up a religion, we are talking ideas... oh wait, you bailed out of that discussion when you played the "faith" card in essence putting up your "wall".
This is not a thought for you to ponder... For you Jesus couldnt have been put on this earth any other way because of God's divine plan. Besides why would god put himself in human form in a place that had no one that worshipped himHeath Sherratt said:
right?
before i wade through that tripe AGAIN i ask that you read and comment on this thread, started and finished before your time:Heath Sherratt said:Sorry guys, that's reasons.org, not reason
"A few questions for evolutionsist[sic]"
Uuuhhh, I think (let me check my Bible) that Peter responds to Jesus when Jesus asks "who do you think I am", Peter says something to the effect "you are the Christ". In the Greek (which the NT was written in) Christ means "Messiah". In that conversation Jesus does not correct Peter as if he made an incorrect assesment.LordOpie said:
Your posts speak for themselves. I don't only speak to you on this thread but to others, they can see and judge for themselves.Slugman said:
He also says it when Pialte asks Him if he is who they say he is and Jesus says, it is as they say. I am. He says it again in the book of John about ten, fifteen times, I and the father are one, I am the alpha and the omega in the book of revelations. It's probably in every book of the bible somewhere.LordOpie said:
I don't think I am in the right. I am simply stating what I know to be true. I am not trying to force my opinions on you and I don't call you names or judge you.golgiaparatus said:
With your religion of relativism how can I be wrong? It's subjective right? Whatever I think is right for me and whatever you think is right for you? That's the beauty of realtivism. The fact that you argue a point in fact proves the point, or else there would be no grounds for disagreement. If what I believed was unbelievable no one would believe it.
Relativism isn't necessarily tied to religion. Jst because you are an atheist, doesn't mean you can't be a relativist of some ilk.Toshi said:i am an atheist. i don't believe in relativism. don't lump the two together
Do you eat shellfish or wear clothing made of mixed fabrics? Tattoos maybe? Ever crossdressed?Heath Sherratt said:
If you do, you're a relativist, my friend.
You do think that you are in the right otherwise you wouldnt be in here jabbering away like the broken record that somehow plagues so many Christians that also think that they are right. And I didnt say you cast judgement on me, you tried to label Bhudbists as false (i.e. worshipping bhudda as a god) because of a small portion of people that misrepresent the teachings (the same which can be said about Christianity, Seriously read "Mine Eyes Have Seen The Glory" you will like it a lot).Heath Sherratt said:
"what you know to be true" again... the correct statement is "believe to be true". You dont know it, I'm sorry, but you don't, just as I or anybody else don't know for a fact that it is false... however inprobable it may be.
UUUUHHHH, that's Torah, as a Gentile (which I assume Heath is) and a follower of Jesus, we are not "required" to follow the Torah, although it's a real good idea to, which myself and my wife try to do.Silver said:
Not true, relativism is a religion of it's own sort, just like bike riding. I don't think you are reading all the posts, just the ones directly written for you.Toshi said:
Heath Sherratt said:
Religion has many meanings, one of them is "A set of rituals, beliefs, and rules based on a specific philosophy" thus making every human religious and every "belief" a religion. What I am saying is that relativism is lumped in with "other religions" like bikes and football are lumped into the sports category. When you become more specific then the lines get drawn.
I know that.Andyman_1970 said:
But when homosexuals come up, no Christian ever trots out the words of Jesus. The adulterous woman comes to mind, or Jesus saying to render to Caesar what is Caesar's. Instead they go straight for Leviticus and Paul. So, as far as I'm concerned, the shellfish is fair game
That would be leaving the entire new testament out. Sure we are supposed to be above the law and with grace we can be, but it's not by our efforts that we acheive maturity in spiritual matters, it is by our faith in God to complete the work He started in us. If that means He asks me not to get tattoos, then it is my personal responsibility to Him not to. He also stated to Peter in the new testament that what he had made clean was not to be called unclean. He has undone many of his old laws by the sacrifice of His son. Many of those laws were for the protection of the Hebrews from other cultures, inter marraige, sacrifices, certain foods, things like that, but Christ set us free from those types of laws. Paul makes it very clear as the apostle to the gentiles (those outside the hebrew ancestory) that they do not have to live by the law-pentateuch, torah, etc. But we are to live by His Spirit. That has been his desire since the BEGINNING.Silver said: