[norbar]

FWIW, when the Syndicate switched from SRAM/RS to Shimano/Fox, they got the mechanics to hacksaw slots in the braking surface of the pads to reduce initial bite force across uneven terrain, at least until the riders adapted to them. Granted - Peaty and Minaar probably don't have the braking skills the RM crew have got (actually to be fair, they'd probably be less experienced using brakes) but it shows that at least initially there seems to be some other people that have issue with the servo-leverage curve that shimano brakes have. I'm pretty sure they're one of the only non-linear brakes on the market now.

It's clear old Syndicate guys have the senile finger syndrome and on RM we all use our fingers more than Greg and Steve.

Though tbh do non Syndicate Shimano riders do it? Or was it a thing only for them? Since if it's only them then I don't think you really have an argument here about top riders needing it.

Finally it was never a question of "skill". I mentioned many times. I'm a mediocre rider but I simply never had issues with insta locking brakes. Even as a 15 year old kid. The Syndicate guys were simply used to shit brakes. It's more personal preference than skill. If you are used to "evil on off brakes" then you are fine with them.

 

[SuspectDevice]

I got some hand me down thick rotor TRP GSpecs at the end of 2019 that are still surprisingly ok(they live on my slalom/jib/trail bike).
I definitely want to try them with Shimano hoses, as especially the rear line has noticeable expansion that almost makes the rear master cylinder feel like it has a leak. I’ve tried a bunch of different fluid, running some Hayes branded mineral oil at the moment. They are strong af, but it’s hard to get the lever close enough to the bar for my size adult male extra small hands.

My favorite brakes right now are still gen 2 Code calipers attached to bottom of the barrel Guide master cylinders with the magic dot fluid in the blue can with the Porsche on it.

There is no other brake i’ve found that works better(aka less lever throw with the lever dialed in) than my overfilled mutt brakes.

It seems like most SRAM brakes i tug on at the shops or races are under-filled. I wonder how many people learn how to bleed them to their preferences before they buy something else?

I’ll take a slightly wooden feel and occasional howling for ergonomics that work for me, cuz the best brakes are the ones that work with my hands!

 

[jezso]

From my end, - yeah for sure, noone gives a damn - pulled the trigger on the A4s eventually. Quite excited, to say the least! The motivation was our ride with my colleauges from Arosa to Chur, which included some mean steep fall line sections from Churwalden down to Chur. Since I have RM arms, I ended up braking with 2 fingers with the Codes. Of course I was the single person with Sram so the others had a good laugh.

What I also learned is that Trickstuff brakes are really something else. One of the guys runs these on all his bikes, and this particular ones on his Enduro bike were leaking a little oil on the disk. It was the rear break, and I was quite shocked that it still produced enourmous force, dispite this small little issue. The only cue of the issue was that weird smell of burned oil. Other lessons learned was that the shifter adaptor of Trickstuff is extremly flimsy, so the guy ended up with the famous zip-tie mount for the shifter. Overall, in my books at least, its an overengineer German product, and to me is it like a giraffe, nice-nice, but I'd rather won't take it home. Not to mention I could not afford...

 

[toodles]

It's clear old Syndicate guys have the senile finger syndrome and on RM we all use our fingers more than Greg and Steve.

Though tbh do non Syndicate Shimano riders do it? Or was it a thing only for them? Since if it's only them then I don't think you really have an argument here about top riders needing it.

Finally it was never a question of "skill". I mentioned many times. I'm a mediocre rider but I simply never had issues with insta locking brakes. Even as a 15 year old kid. The Syndicate guys were simply used to shit brakes. It's more personal preference than skill. If you are used to "evil on off brakes" then you are fine with them.

Yeah I always found with Saints that if they were biting too hard I could just release and re-apply the brake and there'd be a fair chance there'd be no bite at all the second time. Just ask Gwin

 

[DaveW]

I've been running Zee's, 4pot XT's and several bikes with Hope Tec3 V4's in my fleet.
Been happy with all of them.
But on the New Rallon I've tried something new.
TRP DH R EVO

DH-R EVO Gold

The New DH-R EVO brings maximum power, unparalleled modulation and optimized heat management to heavy 29er DH bikes, long travel Enduro rigs and the new era of E-MTB charging. The G-Spec DH-R brake has been re-designed to the all-new DH-R EVO. A new caliper, new lever, new hose, new oil, new...

trpcycling.com

As they require a thicker rotor I went with the Galfer 2.0mmrather than the 2.3 TRP ones.
220mm front and 203mm rear.
So far I've been super impressed!
redonkuloss power, but very controllable without the hideous sram mushy feel.

 

[norbar]

Yeah I always found with Saints that if they were biting too hard I could just release and re-apply the brake and there'd be a fair chance there'd be no bite at all the second time. Just ask Gwin

I thought Gwins thing was on 810s which were much more consistent.

 

[sunringlerider]

Unpopular opinion, but I've never been. . . Since we are talking 2022 and not 2015 or 16. I currently am running Sram guide ultimate's, G2 RSC's and Level Ultimate's. I think the G2 and guides have a similar lever feel. I bleed mine with a little more lever pull than some would like. The levels I would say are weak, but they are on my Indiana XC bike, for that purpose they are perfect.

I previously had a set of level, guide and codes that all had the sticky piston, but what was the craziest thing is that Sram warrantied all of them. I will say I am a house divided, mrs has shimano stuff on her bikes.

 

[Jozz]

A4 here. Really like them so far (one season). Love the lever feel and power.

 

[Redwood Mulch Chucker]

I found a solution to get those TRP levers closer to the bar....bolt on some Shimano levers.

ShiRP brakes are born!

I believe the pistons on the DH-R EVO are the same size as Saint, but you can run thick rotors as the calipers have more clearance. Using some SLX levers which seem to have less bite point migration problems than XT/XTR.

Feel great in the driveway.

 

[norbar]

It's weird that shimano seems to make great levers and shitty calipers given the number of frankenbrakes. If only they fixed their shit we would not have to mix and match.

 

[canadmos]

Great levers? All of my XT levers have leaked and needed replacing.

Only the cheap ones on my fat bike seem okay, but on those the calipers leak and contaminate the pads. Had some Saints that did the same thing.

Shimano is at least consistent with their problems. There are problems and they've been the same for a while.

With Sram, yeah who knows. It's a mixed bag lottery of all sorts of potential issues.

 

[norbar]

Great levers? All of my XT levers have leaked and needed replacing.

Only the cheap ones on my fat bike seem okay, but on those the calipers leak and contaminate the pads. Had some Saints that did the same thing.

Shimano is at least consistent with their problems. There are problems and they've been the same for a while.

With Sram, yeah who knows. It's a mixed bag lottery of all sorts of potential issues.

So why the hell people use them in frankenbreaks if the levers suck? Currently the only shimano brake at home is on my gf's road bike and it works well

 

[canadmos]

So why the hell people use them in frankenbreaks if the levers suck? Currently the only shimano brake at home is on my gf's road bike and it works well

If I remember correctly it's something to do with the inside of the levers on the XT (and others) being bare aluminum?

Maybe they'd be fine if you could buy a seal kit for them......but yeah.

I don't know really. All I know is that I've had to replace about 4 XT levers and now have a mixed pair of random SLX and a chrome XTR lever - because I'm saving pennies for those sweet sweet Dominions.

 

[norbar]

If I remember correctly it's something to do with the inside of the levers on the XT (and others) being bare aluminum?

Maybe they'd be fine if you could buy a seal kit for them......but yeah.

I don't know really. All I know is that I've had to replace about 4 XT levers and now have a mixed pair of random SLX and a chrome XTR lever - because I'm saving pennies for those sweet sweet Dominions.

I have to say I am surprised people seem to have same if not more brake issues in 2022 than they did in the past. Ffs. Make the brakes heavy if you make them work. I get that thankfully some companies got their shit together but it's beyond me how others still offer sub par products for crazy prices.

 

[Gary]

...How hard a time does a fatbike brake ever see?

IME The really cheap basic long lever shimanos that come OEM on shitters are their only brakes that go on for years without leaking

Magura levers are just fucking horrible. with stupid plastic bleed ports. Hence folk sticking cheap shimano levers on 'em.

 

[canadmos]

...How hard a time does a fatbike brake ever see?

Pretty hard of a time when you're aimed at a tree going down a hill on snow and ice and not slowing down. Not sure what clenches harder, my hands on the brakes or my cheeks on the seat.

I have Shimano MT500's on the fat bike, so yeah you don't need much brake and I doubt they ever get above room temperature. But the calipers leak all the time, just slowly. Beginning of the winter season is always a howl of noise from them without any actual stopping ability - usually just have to toss the pads, clean and go. Then by February we are back to the howling and no braking brakes.

 

[canadmos]

I have to say I am surprised people seem to have same if not more brake issues in 2022 than they did in the past. Ffs. Make the brakes heavy if you make them work. I get that thankfully some companies got their shit together but it's beyond me how others still offer sub par products for crazy prices.

It shouldn't be shocking when every large corporation's motto is MOAR SALES MOAR PROFITS MORE SHAREHOLDERS BENEFITS MORE MORE MORE. We're just on the shit end of the stick.

 

[Andeh]

I have to say I am surprised people seem to have same if not more brake issues in 2022 than they did in the past. Ffs. Make the brakes heavy if you make them work. I get that thankfully some companies got their shit together but it's beyond me how others still offer sub par products for crazy prices.

Clearly you haven't spent a lot of time working with Japanese engineers. Now imagine they're LIZARDS on top of that. Not surprising to me that their issues haven't changed after ~10 years. Same reason they still don't have wireless shifting, but you can get it from no-name Chinese brands.

 

[norbar]

Clearly you haven't spent a lot of time working with Japanese engineers. Now imagine they're LIZARDS on top of that. Not surprising to me that their issues haven't changed after ~10 years. Same reason they still don't have wireless shifting, but you can get it from no-name Chinese brands.

Ah yes the great chinese engineers that never think about the end user. Not saying Japanese engineers are great (never worked with them) but I've seen Chinese engineers design downhill parts not realizing what downhill even is.

But My question was about brakes in general not just shimano

 

[Andeh]

Well, German engineers are pretty close behind the Japanese in terms of "the design is perfectly fine, you must be using it wrong." Which would explain the Magura issues.

 

[norbar]

Well, German engineers are pretty close behind the Japanese in terms of "the design is perfectly fine, you must be using it wrong." Which would explain the Magura issues.

So the choice is:
1. American corporate cost cutting bs
2. German and Japanese of designing for their own spreadsheets
3. Chinese knock offs tested by people who don't even care what bikes are and they tested the clamping force on their own nipples.
4. Italian "well we started with a good idea but then got distracted by pizza".

 

[slyfink]

...How hard a time does a fatbike brake ever see?

IME The really cheap basic long lever shimanos that come OEM on shitters are their only brakes that go on for years without leaking

Magura levers are just fucking horrible. with stupid plastic bleed ports. Hence folk sticking cheap shimano levers on 'em.

in my experience, the biggest issue for fatbike brakes is the constant freeze/thaw cycle they go through being stored inside the house (on average at +23°C), and then spending time in the cold at anywhere from -2°C to -20°C. With Shimano, that led to instant leakage from calipers onto the rotors for me.

Well, German engineers are pretty close behind the Japanese in terms of "the design is perfectly fine, you must be using it wrong." Which would explain the Magura issues.

I really don't understand the issues people have with Magura levers. I have them on two bikes now, for 4 seasons at this point (with plenty of crashing). They've been great, hold a bleed, and are comfortable (I have the 1-finger lever now, but didn't find it much of an improvement over the 2-finger lever if I'm honest).

 

[norbar]

I really don't understand the issues people have with Magura levers. I have them on two bikes now, for 4 seasons at this point (with plenty of crashing). They've been great, hold a bleed, and are comfortable (I have the 1-finger lever now, but didn't find it much of an improvement over the 2-finger lever if I'm honest).

I just understand the issue with German engineering since my mom married one. Didn't try newer magura brakes. Did try some german products that were not designed for real world use tho. Also owned a BMW for a while. Not really a car you want to service on your own.

 

[SkaredShtles]

So the choice is:
1. American corporate cost cutting bs
2. German and Japanese of designing for their own spreadsheets
3. Chinese knock offs tested by people who don't even care what bikes are and they tested the clamping force on their own nipples.
4. Italian "well we started with a good idea but then got distracted by pizza".

Mmm... pizza...

 

[Gary]

the biggest issue for fatbike brakes is the constant freeze/thaw cycle they go through being stored inside the house (on average at +23°C), and then spending time in the cold at anywhere from -2°C to -20°C. With Shimano, that led to instant leakage from calipers onto the rotors for me.

How can you be sure temperature change caused it when Shimano caliper piston seals seem to become leaky even when bikes are left in storage completely un moved and unridden anyway?

 

[slyfink]

I just understand the issue with German engineering since my mom married one. Didn't try newer magura brakes. Did try some german products that were not designed for real world use tho. Also owned a BMW for a while. Not really a car you want to service on your own.

other than my tires (Contis on my car) and Schwalbe's on the bike at the moment, I don't think I own anything that is specifically german engineered.

How can you be sure temperature change caused it when Shimano caliper piston seals seem to become leaky even when bikes are left in storage completely un moved and unridden anyway?

you're right. I didn't scientifically test it out. it just happened a few times in the winter, and I replaced calipers a couple of times in the winter. they may have been worn, and the freeze thaw just encouraged the oil to seep, but correlation was strong, so I made that logical leap... and since putting Maguras on there, I haven't had a single issue. so... ymmv I guess.

 

[Gary]

seems odd chosing to go with another mineral oil based brake if that was your logic

 

[slyfink]

seems odd chosing to go with another mineral oil based brake if that was your logic

it wasn't the oil, it was the piston/seal/caliper body materials that I was thinking of. I don't even remember anymore what the difference was, it's been too long. All I can say is since going Magura, I haven't had an issue.

 

[johnbryanpeters]

How can you be sure temperature change caused it when Shimano caliper piston seals seem to become leaky even when bikes are left in storage completely un moved and unridden anyway?

Not for the more than two decades that I have been using them...

 

[toodles]

So the choice is:
1. American corporate cost cutting bs
2. German and Japanese of designing for their own spreadsheets
3. Chinese knock offs tested by people who don't even care what bikes are and they tested the clamping force on their own nipples.
4. Italian "well we started with a good idea but then got distracted by pizza".

There's also the UK no bleed port on the lever in 2022 technology

 

[SylentK]

There's also the UK no bleed port on the lever in 2022 technology

I'd say they were distracted by soccer...errr "football"

Que Tad Lasso. (the Apple TV series which is quite awesome, I'd say)

 

[Jm_]

There's also the UK no bleed port on the lever in 2022 technology

Screw gravity, thats only a theory, we’re gunna push those bubbles DOWN!

 

[DaveW]

There's also the UK no bleed port on the lever in 2022 technology

Goes hand in hand with the flat capped "ehh bah goom" nature of the english engineers I guess.

 

[Gary]

There's also the UK no bleed port on the lever in 2022 technology

Have they given up selling their pointless bolt on dummy master cylinder cover/plate with its ingenious threaded hole and bleed cup?

 

[Jm_]

Have they given up selling their pointless bolt on dummy master cylinder cover/plate with its ingenious threaded hole and bleed cup?

There will be a tech 4

 

[Carraig042]

Have they given up selling their pointless bolt on dummy master cylinder cover/plate with its ingenious threaded hole and bleed cup?

Nope, they have them for the tech 4.

 

[konifere]

Regarding fat bike brakes, call me crazy but I use the cheap ass (Radius?! brand) cable disc brakes that came stock on mine with 203/160mm RT66 rotors and I've never had any issue with leaks so far! Super consistent feel, no rubbing ever, and when well adjusted, powerful enough for not locking up the wheels and keep traction on snow.

Now for my other bikes I've got MT5s with HC-W levers for next summer. My SLX M7000 calipers/ Deore 6100 levers mix has been trouble-free this summer, but I wanted to try Maguras just to see.

 

[Jm_]

It takes a big brake to slow a fatbike at speeds IME, otherwise other stuff just heats up too fast. Granted, for spring training i was doing hill climb repeats on it and needed a giant front brake for that, but even all around, I need a large brake…not necessarily tons of heat dissipation tho, in the winter.
There was a time everyone thought you had to use mechanical brakes with fat bikes, because other brakes wouldn’t work in the cold, but at that time most brakes were shimano and the sram dot brakes were horrible, so not much choice. You can splash water on a mech brake and freeze the arm/cable, which is not unheard of, so its not like they are immune either. Most people around here are using hydro now and if dot, work just as well as in summer. Mech works too, nothing wrong with it, but avid isnt as cost effective as it used to be.

 

[Electric_City]

I used to wonder when companies would introduce the latest-and-greatest "hybrid brakes". Cable actuated hydraulic calipers.

You're welcome, The Industry™

 

[canadmos]

I used to wonder when companies would introduce the latest-and-greatest "hybrid brakes". Cable actuated hydraulic calipers.

You're welcome, The Industry™

Too late, the brakes on my Giant Revolt are like that and its from 2017 or something.

The levers are normal cable brakes, which go into this weird thing on the stem. The hydraulic hoses come out of that. For as weird of a setup it is, I've had zero issues with it and have never had to adjust or bleed anything. And the brakes work, the little 160mm rotors stop my fatass.