[Da Peach]

Got Shimano? Get a Bleed Cup and their oil.

At first sign of wandering bite point, Bleed Cup the lever. That's all you really have to do. No syringes, no caliper jackassery. Really. Bleed Cup the f*ck out of the lever. Takes less than a beer's worth of time.

My 2 cents. YMMV. Like and subscribe. OMGWTFBBQ. MBA PMP Certified SAFe Agilist. (Now I'm just making fun of people I work with) Oh and for the dentists, ADA approved.

All tried and true. Just bring:
Bleed cup
Shimano fluid
Beer (or 2, depending on length of ride)

and you’re golden.

 

[Jm_]

Got Shimano? Get a Bleed Cup and their oil.

At first sign of wandering bite point, Bleed Cup the lever. That's all you really have to do. No syringes, no caliper jackassery. Really. Bleed Cup the f*ck out of the lever. Takes less than a beer's worth of time.

My 2 cents. YMMV. Like and subscribe. OMGWTFBBQ. MBA PMP Certified SAFe Agilist. (Now I'm just making fun of people I work with) Oh and for the dentists, ADA approved.

So in the cooler weather I'd have to bleed them every ride. And they'd still be moving the engagement point out further during quick repeated braking. SOLD!

 

[DaveW]

I almost have FOMO as I've never had wandering bite point on any of my XT's or Zee's.... and I've not had any customers at the shop bitch about that either??
And I've usually found SRAM to be a right prick to bleed..... a full flush on a shimano is an "as easy as breathing" event.
Even Maguras (that I hate) are easier to get feeling good than Srams.
Probably just a technique thing but it's forever pissed me off.

 

[Jm_]

I find for the wandering bite point you have to be riding fairly specific situation stuff, usually pretty steep where you can't let off the brakes for more than a split second to reposition your fingers. That's when it happens. It's not cruising on a jump trail and bleeding a little speed here and there. But I also find the colder it is, the more it happens in other non-steep situations. To the point where when it gets cold enough, the lever blade engages brakes with 0 lever travel. Like an on/off switch.

You can't "bleed that" out of the system.

 

[DaveW]

Yeah Welly is more techy trail in a temperate climate.
Brakes don't tend to get cooked here, ICE tech is more for show than anything else.

 

[toodles]

Just ordered some Dominion A4s from zee Germans. My mate's A4s are still solid and awesome after a year and they're pretty cheap at the moment.

 

[norbar]

My 2 cents. YMMV. Like and subscribe. OMGWTFBBQ. MBA PMP Certified SAFe Agilist. (Now I'm just making fun of people I work with) Oh and for the dentists, ADA approved.

Ah the good jobs where every time you change the company you feel like a moron because every tiny niche of the industry has their own dumb acronyms you need to learn

 

[norbar]

Just ordered some Dominion A4s from zee Germans. My mate's A4s are still solid and awesome after a year and they're pretty cheap at the moment.

Ordering them as soon as I dig myself out from the extra spending caused by my recent crashy event. Hopefully they are still in stock for xmas.

 

[DaveW]

These look like they could be good. I'll let someone else guinea pig them though.

https://m.pinkbike.com/news/radic-performance-a-high-performance-boutique-brakeset-from-new-zealand.html

So it turns out they have a site near mine at the crankworks expo area, I'll have good look at them tomorrow and report back.

 

[SylentK]

All tried and true. Just bring:
Bleed cup
Shimano fluid
Beer (or 2, depending on length of ride)

and you’re golden.

Don't forget tiny 2mm (or is it 2.5? IDK) allen for bleed port.

Don't loose o-ring on cup.

Re-use cup for shots later. Anything with hot or spicey works best to cover up mineral oil taste. When in doubt, Jagermeister it out. YMMV.

HA

 

[SylentK]

I find for the wandering bite point you have to be riding fairly specific situation stuff, usually pretty steep where you can't let off the brakes for more than a split second to reposition your fingers. That's when it happens. It's not cruising on a jump trail and bleeding a little speed here and there. But I also find the colder it is, the more it happens in other non-steep situations. To the point where when it gets cold enough, the lever blade engages brakes with 0 lever travel. Like an on/off switch.

You can't "bleed that" out of the system.

I totally know what you're talking about. To me that's air in the system somewhere. Or there's a real issue with the brakes. But at least you get braking and as an experienced rider, you can figure it out when it happens. Def not optimal tho. I feel ya.

Shimano used to be known for their quality and back in the day, used to have a pretty good (or at least used to be REALLY good) warranty world. I've sent them back plenty of Saint and XTR stuff (Derailer, brakes). No questions asked. Didn't even have to go through a local shop. [Like I broke the lower jockey wheel of the saint der. Got a new one. Funny thing was I didn't even notice it while riding. It still shifted just fine! Not that there's much shifting or pedaling on a DH bike, but still...]

I'm probably preaching to the choir, but if you've got wonky things going on, contact Shimano. See what they say. Like I said, they used to be really good. Not sure these days as I haven't had any issues, and don't ride as much, but they used to be Johnny on the Spot good.

 

[StiHacka]

Schroedinger's brakes.

 

[Jm_]

I totally know what you're talking about. To me that's air in the system somewhere. Or there's a real issue with the brakes. But at least you get braking and as an experienced rider, you can figure it out when it happens. Def not optimal tho. I feel ya.

Shimano used to be known for their quality and back in the day, used to have a pretty good (or at least used to be REALLY good) warranty world. I've sent them back plenty of Saint and XTR stuff (Derailer, brakes). No questions asked. Didn't even have to go through a local shop. [Like I broke the lower jockey wheel of the saint der. Got a new one. Funny thing was I didn't even notice it while riding. It still shifted just fine! Not that there's much shifting or pedaling on a DH bike, but still...]

I'm probably preaching to the choir, but if you've got wonky things going on, contact Shimano. See what they say. Like I said, they used to be really good. Not sure these days as I haven't had any issues, and don't ride as much, but they used to be Johnny on the Spot good.

Air in the system causes a soft-engagement, because air is compressible. At the least, it has to be pumped out/up.

This is not a soft engagement.

Again, it can't possibly be that hard to get air out of the system when you followed their directions. And this happens independent of bleeds, right after, right before, in the middle, whatever.

 

[Nick]

caused by my recent crashy event.

how are you doing/feeling anyway? on the mend?

 

[shirk007]

After about 8 years on Magura MT5's I've been on Formula Cura 2pots all season and happy with them. Feels like the same power with a touch firmer lever feel.

 

[Andeh]

I find for the wandering bite point you have to be riding fairly specific situation stuff, usually pretty steep where you can't let off the brakes for more than a split second to reposition your fingers. That's when it happens. It's not cruising on a jump trail and bleeding a little speed here and there. But I also find the colder it is, the more it happens in other non-steep situations. To the point where when it gets cold enough, the lever blade engages brakes with 0 lever travel. Like an on/off switch.

You can't "bleed that" out of the system.

Exactly. Where it was really noticeable (and frustrating) was long braking periods, then let off brakes for a corner, then on brakes again and all of the sudden they bite ~1cm further out. Then after the next corner, they bite further out still. Fuck that.

And saying that you should just bleed your brakes every week or before every ride is absurd for a brake that retails for $355 each. Not even the crappy no name Chinese hydraulic brakes on my son's 20" bike require that.

 

[SylentK]

Air in the system causes a soft-engagement, because air is compressible. At the least, it has to be pumped out/up.

This is not a soft engagement.

Again, it can't possibly be that hard to get air out of the system when you followed their directions. And this happens independent of bleeds, right after, right before, in the middle, whatever.

Shall we call in Shimano-Jackassery?

I hear ya man. I can't really explain it. On other systems, yes, I agree it leads to "softness". But Shimano, I think it leads to the wandering bite point. Or no bite point, depending. That's when shit really hits the fan. In addition to softness. All are symptoms of some kind of a problem.

 

[SylentK]

Exactly. Where it was really noticeable (and frustrating) was long braking periods, then let off brakes for a corner, then on brakes again and all of the sudden they bite ~1cm further out. Then after the next corner, they bite further out still. Fuck that.

And saying that you should just bleed your brakes every week or before every ride is absurd for a brake that retails for $355 each. Not even the crappy no name Chinese hydraulic brakes on my son's 20" bike require that.

I agree. If you feel like you have to bleed your brakes before every ride? There's something wrong. Warranty that shit. Complain. Make them fix it.

This is not normal. I'm not trying to say you should bleed before every ride. That's f*ucked up.

What is 'normal'? Maybe once a month if you ride like 3 times a week. On steep, rough terrain that needs a lot of brakes. In my experience anyways.

 

[bullcrew]

Stick and a shoe
Stick for ultimate stopping power front wheel
Shoe for modulation dragging on rear tire

Need better modulation get 5:10

 

[Jm_]

I agree. If you feel like you have to bleed your brakes before every ride? There's something wrong. Warranty that shit. Complain. Make them fix it.

This is not normal. I'm not trying to say you should bleed before every ride. That's f*ucked up.

What is 'normal'? Maybe once a month if you ride like 3 times a week. On steep, rough terrain that needs a lot of brakes. In my experience anyways.

It doesn't matter, even if you get new brakes, they still have the same problem. There are other issues like the weeping caliper pistons and rough MC bore that will wear out the seal over time. Just in time to be out of the warranty period. Shimano sold their soul for the OEM market and making deals to supply brakesets en-mass. I don't need that crap. I've warrantied a set of XTRs that puked out in the winter. I've had multiple levers puke out like that one, but since they were XT, they were not in the warranty period anymore.

It IS normal for shimano brakes. This is how they designed them. Air is compressible, it's not air. I've bled air out of a shimano system plenty of times. The levers feel like crap when there's air in the system. Air in the system is easy to diagnose.

 

[sethimus]

I'm a little late and haven't read the thread but here's my experience in the last couple years:
Most* Shimano brakes work great and the 4 pistons have great power. They usually* bleed easily and thoroughly. The cheapest model is functionally the same as the most expensive so great value. *Occassionally I see weird issues with the master and slave cylinders. Hopefully you don't get one of these duds. The odds are in your favor and warranty exists. I use Shimano 2 pistons on most of my MTBs and 4 pistons on my DH bike.

Sram: Very easy to perfectly bleed. The Code and Guide RSCs have great feel and the Codes have great power. They're what I use on heavy Sur-rons (w/220 rotors). The R models have something else different besides the of lack lever stroke adjustment because they have a longer stroke and usually also feel spongy.

My Trickstuff trail brakes feel almost perfect (lever shape, stroke, firmness. pivot placement keeps it from perfect), great weight and looks, almost great power, okay to bleed. I'm guessing the DH brakes follow suit. I don't know how you're supposed to get them, which makes the cost almost irrelevent. Mine came on a Scott Spark Ultimate.

Hope: I was disappointed in the power of the enduro E4. The DH V4 is supposed to have more power at the cost of a longer lever throw.

Magura: I generally think they feel flexy, I've seen the bleed ports stripped, and I don't like the 4 pads idea. But I've felt some that have a short throw, firm end, and good bite in the parking lot. Maybe too fat a lever blade for me.

2/2 good xt 4 pots since last year

 

[Kanye West]

I noticed the Shimano thing on a rental bike at Whistler this summer. Never really experienced it before that. It was 100% not a bleed issue below the reservoir because the engagement (when it engaged) felt firm. To me, it felt like some critical flaw in either 1) the way the plunger/seal moves or retracts past the reservoir port or 2) some effect of heat causing some pressure rise of the air that could be in the reservoir, so as soon as the communication port is opened again, the whole system is in a different state. Those are WAG's, but the one thing that's certain is that it has to do with the port between the plunger and the reservoir. Passing the plunger over that is where the change takes place when the rest of the braking is pretty much steady.

Fortunately I don't own or work on any Shimano brakes so I have little motivation to solve it beyond those observations.

 

[norbar]

how are you doing/feeling anyway? on the mend?

Thanks for asking. It's ok and got better recently. It just makes me more paranoid and way to careful since it's not like a broken finger.

 

[slimshady]

To me, it felt like some critical flaw in either 1) the way the plunger/seal moves or retracts past the reservoir port or 2) some effect of heat causing some pressure rise of the air that could be in the reservoir, so as soon as the communication port is opened again, the whole system is in a different state.

The servo wave pushes the piston in a non paralel way, so it ends scoring the inner bore of the MC. Fluid is now able to get back past the seal, and you get the dreaded wandering bite point. My friend managed to make a set of XT levers go a bit more by machining the inner bore and adapting a new 3D printed master piston with new seals.

 

[Jm_]

The servo wave

Happens on my non-servo XTRs just as much.

 

[slimshady]

Happens on my non-servo XTRs just as much.

AFAIK Hope, SRAM and Trickstuff anodize the levers after machining. Shimano machines after anodizing, hence the inner bore is softer/rougher than in the oter brands' levers.

EDIT: this is exacerbated by the metal main pistons in Shimano's upper price bracket's brakes.

 

[toodles]

And saying that you should just bleed your brakes every week or before every ride is absurd for a brake that retails for $355 each. Not even the crappy no name Chinese hydraulic brakes on my son's 20" bike require that.

I just paid $420 AUD for the Dominion A4 F&R. Saints are $340 an end. Eff that.

 

[toodles]

Schroedinger's brakes.

I've said it before, but I can't think of any other vehicle where rapidly changing brake bite point would be acceptable. The outstanding part is that not only has it not resulted in a class action, there's actually people that defend the characteristic as something that goes away temporarily if you stick with a maintenance schedule far exceeding even the manufacturer's recommendations.

 

[Jm_]

I've said it before, but I can't think of any other vehicle where rapidly changing brake bite point would be acceptable. The outstanding part is that not only has it not resulted in a class action, there's actually people that defend the characteristic as something that goes away temporarily if you stick with a maintenance schedule far exceeding even the manufacturer's recommendations.

Did u try bleeding it?

 

[SkaredShtles]

Bleed it nao?

 

[Da Peach]

I just paid $420 AUD for the Dominion A4 F&R. Saints are $340 an end. Eff that.

Grams, bro

 

[Da Peach]

Did u try bleeding it?

you bled it wrong.

 

[marshalolson]

Schroedinger's brakes.

Heisenberg designed em. The more you need them to work, the less likely they are to.

 

[SylentK]

Bleed it nao?

Wait...sir? Are your brakes plugged in? Do you have a connection?

Have you tried re-booting your brakes? Perhaps try re-bleeding them for the 1 millionth time....

 

[Jm_]

I've said it before, but I can't think of any other vehicle where rapidly changing brake bite point would be acceptable. .

F-35? Bradley Fighting Vehicle?

 

[sethimus]

you holding them wrong

 

[DaveW]

Ok so I had a good look at the new NZ made Kaha brakes by radic today.
Will need to run them more inboard but they feel awesome.
Quite keen to get a set for my next build!
Lever is a 2 finger one BUT as I said it will need to be more inboard..... I'm happy with doing that.
Designed to run on a 2.3mm rotor like the TRP, according to feedback it works great (touch more pad clearance) on 2.0 rotors like the Galfers.
I'm a convert to the thicker rotors, better heat management, tougher and generally lazer cut not just stamped so straighter out of the box.... why yes I'm over pre warped brand new shimano rotors!

 

[sethimus]

is the 1200$ for one brake or a full set?

 

[norbar]

Heisenberg designed em. The more you need them to work, the less likely they are to.

Those brakes simply present you with new opportunities to enjoy your bike. Ever wondered if you can hop over your bars while at full speed? Have your brakes stop working before a sharp turn and find out.

 

[bullcrew]

$1200 for brakes?

like DaveW im a convert to thicker rotors.
Running galfer 2.0 223/203 rotors and pro green pads on formula one and code brakes...havent needed anymore from either bike...