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ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
23
SF, CA
It's even more ironic, because if Thomas Sowell wasn't black he'd be lucky to have a job as a teaching assistant at a community college...
Please. I don't see eye to eye with the guy (okay, he's an asshole who is jaded by his own exceptional achievement into believing that everyone should face the challenges he did), but his achievements are his own and legitimate.
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
The irony of your signature is amazing, because it comes from a laissez-faire economist.
without a father...and was a high school dropout...who got a g.e.d. & went to howard where he eventually was on staff...


all before the civil rights act of 1964
 

Samirol

Turbo Monkey
Jun 23, 2008
1,437
0
without a father...and was a high school dropout...who got a g.e.d. & went to howard where he eventually was on staff...


all before the civil rights act of 1964
I'm not disputing what he did, but it doesn't take away from the fact that he is a laissez-faire economist, and laissez-faire policies have a huge history of failure and suffering.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
23
SF, CA
without a father...and was a high school dropout...who got a g.e.d. & went to howard where he eventually was on staff...


all before the civil rights act of 1964
Yup, you conservatives love to find that diamond in the rough that lets you turn to the rough and ask, "why the **** aren't the rest of you lazy assholes diamonds?"
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
I'm not disputing what he did, but it doesn't take away from the fact that he is a laissez-faire economist, and laissez-faire policies have a huge history of failure and suffering.
on the scorecard of failure & suffering, where would socialism be on the continuum wrt the free market? i'd point out significant examples of socialist failures - both past & present - and be tempted to relegate them to outlier status. but they aren't. they are precisely what happens when mandated.

yes, "mandated"
Yup, you conservatives love to find that diamond in the rough that lets you turn to the rough and ask, "why the **** aren't the rest of you lazy assholes diamonds?"
not "you", but "we"

as in: "yes we can"

see what i did there?
 

RenegadeRick

98th percentile on my SAT & all I got was this tin
It's not. They are different crimes.
I understand they are defined as different crimes, but should they be?
I am not so sure. Isn't the end result the same? Someone got beat up.
Why is WHO important?

Are you unfamiliar with the concepts of intent and motive?
Not unfamiliar. Just not sure I agree with it being a factor in the specific hypothetical situation I describe. I think it is just another way to single someone out for special treatment.

Let's take this one step further. Let's say that the assaulter was a racist and said bad things about people of other races and this was well documented.

Now let us suppose that the REAL motive for assault was because he caught the assaultee banging his wife.

So if his wife cheated on him with a white guy, assault, but with a black guy, hate crime.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
Please. I don't see eye to eye with the guy (okay, he's an asshole who is jaded by his own exceptional achievement into believing that everyone should face the challenges he did), but his achievements are his own and legitimate.
Yeah, except for the fact that in his ideal world, the only way he'd end up at Stanford is as a janitor.

He's a right wing ideologue, and he's notable for that fact simply because he's black. Much like Clarence Thomas, he owes a career to the fact that he is a token.

Sowell is no Milton Friedman.
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
Yeah, except for the fact that in his ideal world, the only way he'd end up at Stanford is as a janitor.

He's a right wing ideologue, and he's notable for that fact simply because he's black. Much like Clarence Thomas, he owes a career to the fact that he is a token.

Sowell is no Milton Friedman.
could you kindly point me toward any of the works of either man and how you find it intellectually offensive, pedestrian, or stemming from ebonics?

remember when harry reid was on meet the press & exclaimed that justice thomas was "an embarrassment" and his opinions were "poorly written", but it was a full month until he could cite even one example (hillside -v- lyons)? but since he's a democrat, he's not asked to step down from leadership for a clumsy & awkward slight toward blacks, unlike trent lott.

but since you're keen on a black man's success hinging on his color, do you have any comments about 95% of the black vote going for obama?
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
could you kindly point me toward any of the works of either man and how you find it intellectually offensive, pedestrian, or stemming from ebonics?

remember when harry reid was on meet the press & exclaimed that justice thomas was "an embarrassment" and his opinions were "poorly written", but it was a full month until he could cite even one example (hillside -v- lyons)? but since he's a democrat, he's not asked to step down from leadership for a clumsy & awkward slight toward blacks, unlike trent lott.

but since you're keen on a black man's success hinging on his color, do you have any comments about 95% of the black vote going for obama?
Hey look, $tinkle misses the point! Again!

(Ohio is right, you simply cannot be this stupid.)

My point is not that the work of either man is substandard or shoddy or laced through with ebonics, because it isn't. It's simply standard conservative dogma. Like many conservative pundits, they each have a few weird out there ideas, but their deviations from the standard party line are pretty small.

You may not have noticed, but there aren't a lot of black Republicans. Ergo, any black Republican pundit is notable (and valuable) because it lets Republicans say "I have a black friend who agrees with me that n*****s are shiftless and lazy!"

As for the black vote going for Obama, how come he beat Keyes in the Senate race? Keyes is even blacker than Obama, and in your cracker ass world that should have sealed up the black vote, no?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/vote2004/2004-11-02-il-ussenate_x.htm
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
i see. the GOP has a sign on it that reads "whites only, except by invitation"

and if it's standard dogma, why do you find it weird that a black guy would abide by it? are they sub-standard? is it not accessible to their minds? are you a phrenologist?

as for keyes...he was a flannel-wearing carpet bagger from maryland who got his name on the ballot w/ 3 weeks before the election & no illinois experience. based on that alone, who do you think should have won?
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
23
SF, CA
I understand they are defined as different crimes, but should they be?
I am not so sure. Isn't the end result the same?
The end result isn't the same. A hate crime is committed with the intent of not just assaulting the direct victim but intimidating a larger population.

Intent and motive make it a different crime.

Let's say that the assaulter was a racist and said bad things about people of other races and this was well documented.

Now let us suppose that the REAL motive for assault was because he caught the assaultee banging his wife.

So if his wife cheated on him with a white guy, assault, but with a black guy, hate crime.
You don't understand how hate crime law works. This would not be a hate crime unless the white guy in the equation committed the crime in such a manner as to specifically intimidate a broader black population, such as by lynching him.

Do you also have a hard time understanding the difference between manslaughter and murder because the result for the immediate victim is the same.
 

RenegadeRick

98th percentile on my SAT & all I got was this tin
The end result isn't the same. A hate crime is committed with the intent of not just assaulting the direct victim but intimidating a larger population.

Intent and motive make it a different crime.

You don't understand how hate crime law works. This would not be a hate crime unless the white guy in the equation committed the crime in such a manner as to specifically intimidate a broader black population, such as by lynching him.
There really isn't any way I can defend my statements here without going into really extreme hypotheticals, so I am going to go for it. :happydance:

Maybe this guy had rantings he posted on the intardweb about how any black guy that has sex with a white woman deserves to have his ass kicked. But maybe this guy is just a mean and angry type who has kicked lots of ass in his day, but maybe he never got caught before. This guy might be the type that he would beat the carp out of anyone he caught in the aforementioned situation... this guy just happened to be black.

The possibility that a savvy prosecutor might be able to use his words against him to push a hate crime is what is wrong. Maybe the guy is an asshole and deserves what he gets but...

Just exactly what you said, "to specifically intimidate a broader black population" is exactly how this is spun by the prosecutor and since there are writings to back it up, a jury believes it.

Again my problem is with laws recognizing the existence of any "SPECIAL" population at all. They give this special population special defenses and that is what is wrong in a nation of supposed equals.

So, maybe this situation is too extreme well there are many many more examples. I don't want to take away people's special privileges that they enjoy so much, but whether it be free bus rides for seniors, or free passes from the cops, or whatever it is that you get special, just recognize that it is because you are a member of a special class. Everyone else doesn't get what you get because they aren't special like you.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
23
SF, CA
The possibility that a savvy prosecutor might be able to use his words against him to push a hate crime is what is wrong.
And the defense will argue the opposite. If it can be shown beyond a reasonable doubt that the intent was to intimidate the whole social group of the victim, then he will be convicted of a hate crime. You're right, we can't know what happened in his head, so it's judged to the same standard as any other crime in which intent plays a role (again, see manslaughter vs murder).

You seem to be under the impression that hate crime applies only to certain populations. This is not the case. You can be a victim of a hate crime as a white person, if it can be shown that the offender intended the crime as a statement against all white people (or engineers, or conspiracy theorists, or whatever population the offender identifies you with).

edit: I need to correct some of this as the official definition of a hate crime is regarding motivation, NOT intent. Nonetheless there is still a burden of proof WRT to motivation. It's not like anytime a white person assaults a black person it's an automatic hate crime. In the example above, it almost certainly would not be a hate crime because the defense can quite easily show the motivation was said victim shtupping the offender's wife.

If you're really excited to read up: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offenses_reported/hate_crime/index.html
 

Samirol

Turbo Monkey
Jun 23, 2008
1,437
0
on the scorecard of failure & suffering, where would socialism be on the continuum wrt the free market? i'd point out significant examples of socialist failures - both past & present - and be tempted to relegate them to outlier status. but they aren't. they are precisely what happens when mandated.
In terms of people killed, I would say that the free market has done way more damage. Also, socialism has been more or less tied with totalitarianism or at the very least a somewhat benevolent dictatorship, so pointing out that a leader killed someone doesn't exactly correlate with socialistic or laissez-faire policies. For that reason, counting dekulakization and the people Pinochet "disappeared" shouldn't be counted, as they happened as a result of totalitarianism.

The massive amount of people that died in India and Brazil from laissez-faire policies are some of the more overlooked tragedies.

By taking a look at purely the economic actions and impacts, Stalin headed the fastest industrialization of any country ever. He catapulted a country of poor peasants into being one of the most powerful and educated nations. Mao's health care reforms created the largest increase in life expectancy ever.
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
290
VT
The massive amount of people that died in India and Brazil from laissez-faire policies are some of the more overlooked tragedies.
Statistics from socialist states often aren't accurate (which is worse than being overlooked) and information is often censored which leads to a variety of serious issues.

Although fiction, Das Leben der Anderen highlights this issue.
 

Samirol

Turbo Monkey
Jun 23, 2008
1,437
0
Statistics from socialist states often aren't accurate (which is worse than being overlooked) and information is often censored which leads to a variety of serious issues.

Although fiction, Das Leben der Anderen highlights this issue.
statistics from totalitarian states aren't accurate, but you can usually get a ballpark figure
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
In terms of people killed, I would say that the free market has done way more damage.
so was it big gov't or big pharma that gave us protease inhibitors, anti-cancer treatments, damn near every other medical marvel?
The massive amount of people that died in India and Brazil from laissez-faire policies are some of the more overlooked tragedies.
as far as bhopal goes, they were untouchables.

you're welcome
By taking a look at purely the economic actions and impacts, Stalin headed the fastest industrialization of any country ever.
wait, so this is a good military industrial complex?
He catapulted a country of poor peasants into being one of the most powerful and educated nations.
and then killed them off. or was that other ukrainians?
Mao's health care reforms created the largest increase in life expectancy ever.
yes, brought from 40 to mid 50's - or just under the rest of the developed world.

noam chomsky's barely cold in the grave & you're already desecrating his corpse.

well done, lad
 

Samirol

Turbo Monkey
Jun 23, 2008
1,437
0
so was it big gov't or big pharma that gave us protease inhibitors, anti-cancer treatments, damn near every other medical marvel?
That's a bit like letting someone start a couple minutes early in a mile race, because the U.S. was fully industrialized way before Russia was.

Cuba has one of the best health care systems in the world, and outranks the US, Chile, and Argentina in several areas despite being much poorer.

as far as bhopal goes, they were untouchables.
I was referring to the 1876-1878 famine in particular

yes, brought from 40 to mid 50's - or just under the rest of the developed world.
35 to ~60 IIRC, and massive increases in literacy. The USSR also brought huge increases in literacy.

noam chomsky's barely cold in the grave & you're already desecrating his corpse.

well done, lad
Chomsky is alive and well

I'm not disputing the totalitarian aspects of Stalin, Castro, or Mao, but looking at the effects of economic policy.
 
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$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
Cuba has one of the best health care systems in the world, and outranks the US, Chile, and Argentina in several areas despite being much poorer.
cuba does not have chlorinated (or even fluoridated) water, but they do have a flourishing medical tourism industry (e.g., servimed), which means the large majority of premium healthcare goes toward the haves, and not the have-nots. i'm unimpressed by the manner in which they exercise socialism in this respect.

ironically, since russia became insolvent & no longer give them monies to bolster their healthcare system, they've relied upon the free market to keep it afloat.

did i mention the u.s. is the single largest donor of humanitarian supplies? i'd certainly like to take this time to do so in my best michael moore voice (but first i have to get morton spurlock's big mac out of my mouth)
Chomsky is alive and well
oops; wrong cunt
 

Toshi

Harbinger of Doom
Oct 23, 2001
38,032
7,553
so was it big gov't or big pharma that gave us protease inhibitors, anti-cancer treatments, damn near every other medical marvel?
uh, you do realize we have something called NIH... a few researchers may be familiar with it as a source of grant funding, i hear.

:lighten::disgust1:
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
uh, you do realize we have something called NIH... a few researchers may be familiar with it as a source of grant funding, i hear.

:lighten::disgust1:
Research is for liberal faggots.

Take it to Canada, you commie.

(I'm trying to figure out how $tinkle will totally on purpose miss the point of your post...any guesses?)
 

Samirol

Turbo Monkey
Jun 23, 2008
1,437
0
Cuba, even with its much lower GDP, is often better in comparison to the US in terms of AIDS, infant mortality, and a variety of other medical statistics. I can't believe that you find it unimpressive, when they have managed to have one of the better health care systems in the entire world with a lot less in terms of resources.

I don't really see how that is ironic, because Russia went through/is going through harsh laissez-faire reforms that had a devastating toll on the people.
 

Toshi

Harbinger of Doom
Oct 23, 2001
38,032
7,553
Cuba, even with its much lower GDP, is often better in comparison to the US in terms of AIDS, infant mortality, and a variety of other medical statistics. I can't believe that you find it unimpressive, when they have managed to have one of the better health care systems in the entire world with a lot less in terms of resources.

I don't really see how that is ironic, because Russia went through/is going through harsh laissez-faire reforms that had a devastating toll on the people.
you can pick and choose statistics but keep in mind that not all are fair.

off the cuff:

AIDS is reflective of urbanization and lifestyle choices. it's personal choices that lead to the disease (barring transfusions and such -- but it's not 1980 any more). thus it's not a good metric of the performance of the health care system itself, per se.

i think that infant mortality is overstated in the US because we have an obsession with keeping every infant alive. what do i mean by this? nurturing a 28 week premie is probably not the best use of health care dollars (or best for the kid, either). different strategies may well be employed in different countries with regard to pregnancy viability, termination, etc. and these may well influence the stats.

another confounding factor is that developing countries simply have younger populations. younger people are healthier as a general rule.



in conclusion, please move to cuba.
 

Samirol

Turbo Monkey
Jun 23, 2008
1,437
0
i think that infant mortality is overstated in the US because we have an obsession with keeping every infant alive. what do i mean by this? nurturing a 28 week premie is probably not the best use of health care dollars (or best for the kid, either). different strategies may well be employed in different countries with regard to pregnancy viability, termination, etc. and these may well influence the stats.
Since infant mortality is done according to a consistent standard, there shouldn't be any fluctuations based on whether a country decides to try to save a 28 week premie, since a 28 week premie that dies in the US counts just the same as a 28 week premie in Germany.

Age breakdown in cuba:
0-14 years: 18.5% (male 1,088,311/female 1,030,499)
15-64 years: 70.5% (male 4,029,381/female 4,025,154)
65 years and over: 10.9% (male 569,002/female 681,605) (2008 est.)

Age breakdown in the US:
0-14 years: 20.1% (male 31,257,108/female 29,889,645)
15-64 years: 67.1% (male 101,825,901/female 102,161,823)
65 years and over: 12.7% (male 16,263,255/female 22,426,914) (2008 est.)

That's from the CIA factbook (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/cu.html) (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html), so there isn't the wild difference in population age spread.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
23
SF, CA
Since infant mortality is done according to a consistent standard, there shouldn't be any fluctuations based on whether a country decides to try to save a 28 week premie, since a 28 week premie that dies in the US counts just the same as a 28 week premie in Germany.
I think Toshi meant infant mortality is overEMPHASIZED, not overstated in the statistical sense, but I may be wrong.
 

Samirol

Turbo Monkey
Jun 23, 2008
1,437
0
I think Toshi meant infant mortality is overEMPHASIZED, not overstated in the statistical sense, but I may be wrong.
Ah, in that case, then the point still stands that although Cuba has the GDP of a third world country, it has the medical care of a first world country, which is extremely impressive. Now, I'm not saying that Cuba is the perfect place, because it has a lot of flaws, but it is okay to recognize their considerable accomplishments

Cuba also has an excellent education system, but I don't expect stinkle to be impressed with that either.
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
uh, you do realize we have something called NIH... a few researchers may be familiar with it as a source of grant funding, i hear.

:lighten::disgust1:
i won't even dignify this with a response
Cuba also has an excellent education system, but I don't expect stinkle to be impressed with that either.
comparing it to ours, no, i'm underwhelmed. our public schooling suxors not just in comprehension, but depth of literacy. i have no beef w/ mandated quality education.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
23
SF, CA
Now, I'm not saying that Cuba is the perfect place, because it has a lot of flaws, but it is okay to recognize their considerable accomplishments
I guess where i stand is that I can agree with those accomplishments, but the US has the resources to easily match and exceed those accomplishments and STILL have vast resources left over for the many many (many) areas where a totalitarian government and planned economy fall short. We are for the most part in agreement that our current allocation of resources is out of balance, but stinkle's correct in pointing out that capitalism gives us far more resources to allocate.

For me the interesting question is, is prioritization of military power (and with it neo-imperialism) and deprioritization of public health an inevitable by-product of a capitalist system. I don't think it is, but 100 years of US military history and 30 years of public policy disagrees with me.
 

dhbuilder

jingoistic xenophobe
Aug 10, 2005
3,040
0
Apparently, paying is optional according to the nominated incoming Treasury Secretary. So is having documented workers. sheesh, just when you thought it'd get better.



Story

But then again, how bad is this compared to the mess Paulson got us into?

For some reason, this seems like it should be questioned a little harder than it is.
he sure had a hard time spitting out the words, "turbo tax" when asked if he had electronic assistance.

and then today for the 1st time in a coons age, i hear a new turbo tax ad on the radio.
coincidence ??
 

Samirol

Turbo Monkey
Jun 23, 2008
1,437
0
comparing it to ours, no, i'm underwhelmed. our public schooling suxors not just in comprehension, but depth of literacy. i have no beef w/ mandated quality education.
comparing Cuba to the first world isn't fair, compare it to other South/Central American countries

I guess where i stand is that I can agree with those accomplishments, but the US has the resources to easily match and exceed those accomplishments and STILL have vast resources left over for the many many (many) areas where a totalitarian government and planned economy fall short. We are for the most part in agreement that our current allocation of resources is out of balance, but stinkle's correct in pointing out that capitalism gives us far more resources to allocate.
You can have a planned economy without a totalitarian government. However, by comparing Cuba to the United States, Cuba can never stack up because it is a third world country. I only did the United States-Cuba comparisons above to show that it can provide first world quality services with third world resources.

If we look at Chile, one of the countries that is said to have benefited massively from free market policies, mostly the rich have benefited.

It has a Gini coefficient of 54.9, the 14th highest. They spend far less than Cuba as a % of GDP on education. The problem is that even though Chile can afford to spend a hell of a lot more on its people, it refuses to because it is a heavily capitalist country. The rich have been the prime benefactors of the free market system there, and not the average citizen.
 

Samirol

Turbo Monkey
Jun 23, 2008
1,437
0
gee, if only there was something they could do to get out of that pit.
A lot of third world countries have adopted free market policies, but they are still ****holes for the majority of the residents. The rich at the top do fantastic though.