[Tenchiro]

Link poo

Nice to know that the Iraqi people really are free now.

An Iraqi man detained for shouting slogans praising Saddam Hussein during a demonstration refuses to sit down when ordered by a U.S. Army soldier in central Baghdad October 15, 2003. The sign at rear reads in Arabic, 'We will win'. War in Iraq has swollen the ranks of al Qaeda and galvanized the Islamic militant group's will, the International Institute for Strategic Studies said on Wednesday in its annual report. The 2003-2004 edition of the British-based think-tank's annual bible for defense analysts, The Military Balance, said Washington's assertions after the Iraq conflict that it had turned the corner in the war on terror were 'over-confident.' (Ceerwan Aziz/Reuters)

 

[RhinofromWA]

I don't know if I was the soldier I wouldn't be to keen on the guy in my face either......in that situation.

What do you expect the soldier to do? Spit shine the mans shoes?

Heck replace the rifle with non-leathal alternative (paintball guns etc) and it could be any riot in Seattle over the last few years.

Gee, I am sure glad he was detained for only "shouting slogans praising Saddam Hussein during a demonstration"

 

[Tenchiro]

How can we claim to liberate the country and at the same time deny the people freedom to speak their minds?

I guess "Operation Iraqi Freedom" is just a name.

 

[LordOpie]

it's simple, the guy is an enemy of the (new) state.

You don't think our founding fathers said, "hey, it's ok if you want to parade around with signs praising the mother land and saying the new country sucks."

What do you think would happen if people held signs in DC saying, "America is evil, we need to overturn our gov't., etc."?

The guy needs to be kicked out of the country or jailed, he's an enemy, plain and simple.

 

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by Tenchiro
How can we claim to liberate the country and at the same time deny the people freedom to speak their minds?

I guess "Operation Iraqi Freedom" is just a name.

Well I am saying if I was the soldier........in a war zone........I wouldn't like an aggressor spouting off in my face and being defiant. We shackle our own the same way.......don't we? Similiar handling, minus the war zone.

I am sure he was JUST RIDING ALONG....oops sorry...."just protesting" like a good free person.

If you get in my face in an unfriendly situation, where very easily you can cause me harm..........if I had a rifle it would be in your chest too.

Yes, you are right. Let them shoot us in the back, spit on us, cause us bodily harm, assult us......they are free. It is their right as free people to harm others. Do you really think he was just standing around in a crowd voicing his opinion? about it.

Something was left out that caused this man to be selected and pulled from an unfriendly crowd. If he was jsut shouting I would leave him there....it is more dangerous for a soldier to go into a group and yank him out....it is safer to stay out of arms reach. I think something more happend than the story seems to allued to.......

 

[Tenchiro]

Originally posted by LordOpie
You don't think our founding fathers said, "hey, it's ok if you want to parade around with signs praising the mother land and saying the new country sucks."

Well, yeah they did. Not only did they say it, they made it one of the cornerstones of our society.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

 

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by LordOpie
it's simple, the guy is an enemy of the (new) state.

You don't think our founding fathers said, "hey, it's ok if you want to parade around with signs praising the mother land and saying the new country sucks."

What do you think would happen if people held signs in DC saying, "America is evil, we need to overturn our gov't., etc."?

The guy needs to be kicked out of the country or jailed, he's an enemy, plain and simple.

It seems that stance is a little harsh. Atleast to me. I jsut think there is more to the story/picture than what was reported.

 

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by Tenchiro
Well, yeah they did. Not only did they say it, they made it one of the cornerstones of our society.

Peaceably assemble.........

Carefully worded don't you think.

 

[Tenchiro]

Originally posted by RhinofromWA
Well I am saying if I was the soldier........in a war zone........I wouldn't like an aggressor spouting off in my face and being defiant. We shackle our own the same way.......don't we? Similiar handling, minus the war zone.

I am sure he was JUST RIDING ALONG....oops sorry...."just protesting" like a good free person.

If you get in my face in an unfriendly situation, where very easily you can cause me harm..........if I had a rifle it would be in your chest too.

Yes, you are right. Let them shoot us in the back, spit on us, cause us bodily harm, assult us......they are free. It is their right as free people to harm others. Do you really think he was just standing around in a crowd voicing his opinion? about it.

Something was left out that caused this man to be selected and pulled from an unfriendly crowd. If he was jsut shouting I would leave him there....it is more dangerous for a soldier to go into a group and yank him out....it is safer to stay out of arms reach. I think something more happend than the story seems to allued to.......

From what I read, he was just voicing his opinion. Not throwing rocks, or shooting RPG's at soldiers. There may be more to the story than what was reported, but the caption seems to make it clear that he wasn't doing anything else.

 

[Tenchiro]

Originally posted by RhinofromWA
Peaceably assemble.........

Carefully worded don't you think.

He was detained for "shouting slogans", not violence.

 

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by Tenchiro
He was detained for shouting slogans, not violence.

You see the picture. Does the detainee look peaceful and a non-threat?

Granted he is not a happy man right now.....

I think if you were the trained soldier with your life on the line would have the gun in his chest too. It sin't like he pulled the trigger... but he could if the need arrised.

 

[Tenchiro]

Originally posted by RhinofromWA
You see the picture. Does the detainee look peaceful and a non-threat?

Granted he is not a happy man right now.....

I think if you were the trained soldier with your life on the line would have the gun in his chest too. It sin't like he pulled the trigger... but he could if the need arrised.

My complaint isn't about that, but about the fact that a supposedly liberated people really aren't.

 

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by Tenchiro
From what I read, he was just voicing his opinion. Not throwing rocks, or shooting RPG's at soldiers. There may be more to the story than what was reported, but the caption seems to make it clear that he wasn't doing anything else.

Something more happened to risk going in to a unfriendly crowd and pulling this man into a truck.....wouldn't you think? This isn't a video game. Something real happened to necessitate risking the a soldiers life more than shouting slogans.

You don't stop mid ride to change a tube without a reason. There needs to be a reason why this guy was yanked.....more than what was reported.

Ask 15 people from different points in the event and you will get destinct different recallations (is that a word?) of what happened.

You don't need to kill or injure somone to be a threat.

Did the caption do the event justice or was it just good news?

 

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by Tenchiro
My complaint isn't about that, but about the fact that a supposedly liberated people really aren't.

People are protesting..........Brought to you by Freedom. They couldn't even do that before. I mean come on. They are PROTESTING. They are liberated. I don't see your connection.

 

[gorgechris]

The man is clearly obstructing our right to exploit his country's oil reserves. That, my friend, is a punishable offense.

 

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by gorgechris
The man is clearly obstructing our right to exploit his country's oil reserves. That, my friend, is a punishable offense.

*yawn*

Oil.......yeah, next. That is exactly what he is concerned about.

 

[Tenchiro]

Originally posted by RhinofromWA
People are protesting..........Brought to you by Freedom. They couldn't even do that before. I mean come on. They are PROTESTING. They are liberated. I don't see your connection.

Yeah, they were protesting, but it doesn't really count when your not free to speak your mind.

 

[Tenchiro]

Originally posted by RhinofromWA
Something more happened to risk going in to a unfriendly crowd and pulling this man into a truck.....wouldn't you think? This isn't a video game. Something real happened to necessitate risking the a soldiers life more than shouting slogans.

You don't stop mid ride to change a tube without a reason. There needs to be a reason why this guy was yanked.....more than what was reported.

Ask 15 people from different points in the event and you will get destinct different recallations (is that a word?) of what happened.

You don't need to kill or injure somone to be a threat.

Did the caption do the event justice or was it just good news?

You may be right, the related story really wasn't about the picture. So I guess we will really not know for sure.

 

[Jorvik]

Would you chance it if you were a soldier in an occupated territory with the promise of terrorist warefare against you? I'd send him to the deck and flex-cuff his ass.

 

[DaKahuna]

is not being accurately reported by the media because they have an agenda, period. They aren't talking about the fact that schools are being rebuilt, infrastructure is being rebuilt, businesses are reopening, etc. There is SO MUCH positive stuff happening that is INTENTIONALLY being left out of the reporting. Soldiers are writing letters protesting that fact, as well. There are polls out there that state that over 60% of the Iraqis say we are doing a good job. The 10% that hates us is the 10% that used to persecute the other 90% during Saddam's regime. They are the ones that are still fighting us and are the ones that have joined Bin Laden.

Regarding this particular soldier vs. "protester" incident, there are limits to free speech even in this country (remember the old shouting "fire" in a theater analogy?). Shouting slogans is one thing, but shouting slogans like "kill the Americans" or something like that in hopes of inciting violence against the troops MUST be dealt with. Let's drop you and a few of your friends off in the middle of a rowdy crowd in downtown Bagdad with just a few rifles and some ammo, and let's see how worried you suddenly get about your safety! If the Iraqi guy had protested like that towards Saddam, he would have gotten the meat grinder treatment, feet first, and probably after watching his wife and daughter get raped in front of him.

I'd say he's a heck of a lot freer!!!!
You people really have forgotten how evil and brutal Saddam was/is and I take it as a very personal offense that anyone would suggest that our involvment there even remotely resembles the evil that Saddam Hussein perpetrated on the Iraqi people.
Do you realize what you are saying?

 

[johnbryanpeters]

Originally posted by DaKahuna
...Soldiers are writing letters protesting that fact, as well...

Actually, according to a recent news article, corroborated by some soldiers, they're being conned into signing form letters written by (who knows...) - letters with identical wording showed up in many towns under different names.

J

 

[partsbara]

duh

everybody knows that the real reason for the war was to liberate the people of iraq...

i mean c'mon... you people aren t that gulliable are you $????%@#$^... if that region wasn t loaded with oil then do you really think that the war would have taken place ???

fvckin george bush is a hopeless leader.... he is the figurehead for america and the reason that the WORLD is laughing at the usa...

partsbara

 

[fluff]

Originally posted by Jorvik
Would you chance it if you were a soldier in an occupated territory with the promise of terrorist warefare against you? I'd send him to the deck and flex-cuff his ass.

Which is why it's such a dumb idea to insist they are being liberated. As you so correctly said, it is an occupied territory and I don't blame the soldiers for being wary, enough of them have died already to show that not every Iraqi is happy at being liberated.

Fighting for democracy abroad is always fraught with risks, after all if you are fighting against some of the people of the nation you are liberating you are, by definition, not liberating all of the people.

I say get the hell out of there, but then there is the oil isn't there?

Cue more yawns.

 

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by partsbara
duh

everybody knows that the real reason for the war was to liberate the people of iraq...

i mean c'mon... you people aren t that gulliable are you $????%@#$^... if that region wasn t loaded with oil then do you really think that the war would have taken place ???

fvckin george bush is a hopeless leader.... he is the figurehead for america and the reason that the WORLD is laughing at the usa...

partsbara

Hmmmmm it is funny how we have taken all the country's oil for ourselves......

Screw the people.......just pump the oil. *yawn* next?

Funny how this idea of why we are there hasn't panned out either......we were sooooooo (100%, nothing else) in it for the oil.

I don't think we will have a beloved leader in this country for a long time, unless something big changes in the society itself. No leader along any party line will ever please everyone. Heck it is kind of like being a parent....you do things that your children don't like, but you feel are in their best overall wellfare. Strict parents (ones who don't give in to the whining of their children who love to complain) are rarely loved......it is a shame.

Being president of the USA is a thankless job....and it has been for sometime.

 

[fluff]

Originally posted by DaKahuna
is not being accurately reported by the media because they have an agenda, period. They aren't talking about the fact that schools are being rebuilt, infrastructure is being rebuilt, businesses are reopening, etc.

Much as I hate to say it, why does this stuff need rebuilding?

Originally posted by DaKahuna
There are polls out there that state that over 60% of the Iraqis say we are doing a good job.

Don't be so sure about the polls, there have been cases of US Embassy officials making polls up (the Phillipines). It may be true, it may not

Originally posted by DaKahuna
You people really have forgotten how evil and brutal Saddam was/is and I take it as a very personal offense that anyone would suggest that our involvment there even remotely resembles the evil that Saddam Hussein perpetrated on the Iraqi people.
Do you realize what you are saying?

I have not forgotten how brutal Saddam Husseins regime was reported to be. I have also not forgotten the fact that the US helped put him in power, supported him against Iran, turned a blind eye to his atrocities against the Kurds and the other residents of Iraq for many years and supplied him with many of the building blocks of his biological weapons programme. Nor have I forgotten the estimates by the UN that sanctions against Iraq for 10 years hastened the death of 1.5 million people, of whom many where children

And I'm sorry that that you take it personally, because I do not know you or wish to attack you personally. I don't think the US of the UK should have gone in, they should not be there and I do realise what I am saying.

 

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by fluff
Which is why it's such a dumb idea to insist they are being liberated. As you so correctly said, it is an occupied territory and I don't blame the soldiers for being wary, enough of them have died already to show that not every Iraqi is happy at being liberated.

Fighting for democracy abroad is always fraught with risks, after all if you are fighting against some of the people of the nation you are liberating you are, by definition, not liberating all of the people.

I say get the hell out of there, but then there is the oil isn't there?

Cue more yawns.

Saying the war was over was wishful thinking....duh retract said optamistic statement already....it was for the people at home to sleep better anyway.

What seems to escape most people is they CAN PROTEST. Fighting the group of people who controlled a country will by definition be fighting people of that homeland.....but that does not mean the oppressed are not, to a degree, liberated. It is never clean (fighting in a foriegn land) Of course the the opressors don't like losing their power, I would be mad too.

Protesting is a freedom they never had.....I would hope that would make you In these days of instant information and internet, and microwave ovens.......people think these operations are a short endevor.......hello? I this thing on? *tap, tap, tapitty tap*

 

[fluff]

Originally posted by RhinofromWA

I don't think we will have a beloved leader in this country for a long time, unless something big changes in the society itself. No leader along any party line will ever please everyone. Heck it is kind of like being a parent....you do things that your children don't like, but you feel are in their best overall wellfare. Strict parents (ones who don't give in to the whining of their children who love to complain) are rarely loved......it is a shame.

Being president of the USA is a thankless job....and it has been for sometime.

Dude, what sort of childhood did you have? Are you basing your statements about parenting on personal experience or years of research?

Parents can be loved by their kids despite perpertrating some hideous acts upon them. The same could be said for heads of state (e.g Joseph Stalin). Good parents are usually loved by their kids.

If you truly believe that your beloved leader is acting in your best interests then we will never be able to agree in this particular forum!!

 

[fluff]

Originally posted by RhinofromWA

Protesting is a freedom they never had.....I would hope that would make you In these days of instant information and internet, and microwave ovens.......people think these operations are a short endevor.......hello? I this thing on? *tap, tap, tapitty tap*

Sorry mate, I don't really understand smileys. What are you saying here?

 

[RhinofromWA]

*Shorten*...sorry I lost the top section
I have not forgotten how brutal Saddam Husseins regime was reported to be. I have also not forgotten the fact that the US helped put him in power, supported him against Iran, turned a blind eye to his atrocities against the Kurds and the other residents of Iraq for many years and supplied him with many of the building blocks of his biological weapons programme. Nor have I forgotten the estimates by the UN that sanctions against Iraq for 10 years hastened the death of 1.5 million people, of whom many where children

And I'm sorry that that you take it personally, because I do not know you or wish to attack you personally. I don't think the US of the UK should have gone in, they should not be there and I do realise what I am saying. [/B]

I agree with polls(statistics too).....I never trust polls. I have said it before, if I wanted to I can help prove to people that I am a 40yo african american woman with poll results or statistics. It is endless about how they can scew the results or present their findings. I agree.

So actions in the past should dictate the future. We should not correct mistakes and leave it to play out? UN sanctions did not kill 1.5 million people, I am not sure the connection is quite solid enough there.

I respect that you feal the US & UK shouldn't have gone in to Iraq. I just find the reasons listed about why people beleive that way puzzling (not neccessarily with you, but many of the people I speak with) but, I guess from our own perspectives they are just and well placed.

Rhino

 

[johnbryanpeters]

The purple face is supposed to represent thinking (as opposed to apoplexy...).

 

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by fluff
Sorry mate, I don't really understand smileys. What are you saying here?

My bad........the smilie is :think': so I substituted it for the word. Sorry.

 

[$tinkle]

Originally posted by partsbara
duh

everybody knows that the real reason for the war was to liberate the people of iraq...

i mean c'mon... you people aren t that gulliable are you $????%@#$^... if that region wasn t loaded with oil then do you really think that the war would have taken place ???

didn't i see you in this video?

Originally posted by partsbara
fvckin george bush is a hopeless leader.... he is the figurehead for america and the reason that the WORLD is laughing at the usa...

yeah, the 82 countries that support us by providing resources are just howling. And don't miss today's headlines about "Security Council UNANIMOUSLY Passes Iraq Resolution"

 

[fluff]

Originally posted by RhinofromWA
*Shorten*

So actions in the past should dictate the future. We should not correct mistakes and leave it to play out? UN sanctions did not kill 1.5 million people, I am not sure the connection is quite solid enough there.

I respect that you feal the US & UK shouldn't have gone in to Iraq. I just find the reasons listed about why people beleive that way puzzling (not neccessarily with you, but many of the people I speak with) but, I guess from our own perspectives they are just and well placed.

Rhino

It was a long'un... I'm glad to see that we've not got personal here, makes a nice change for me to be able to protest here without things getting touchy...

So that I can understand where we are here, given that you support the action and therefore the reasons we went into Iraq, what are the reasons that you believe went in there for?

There has been a lot of smoke and mirrors IMHO.

 

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by fluff
Dude, what sort of childhood did you have? Are you basing your statements about parenting on personal experience or years of research?

Parents can be loved by their kids despite perpertrating some hideous acts upon them. The same could be said for heads of state (e.g Joseph Stalin). Good parents are usually loved by their kids.

If you truly believe that your beloved leader is acting in your best interests then we will never be able to agree in this particular forum!!

Many decisions of leaders are often not liked by many of their people.....

My anology may be hard for you to understand but it makes sense to me.....at times difficult decisions are made. If Bush wanted to be loved he would just sit back and do nothing ever.......wait they would bash him for that too.

Being responible for another (parent/child) means making decisions not popular with the one being cared for even if it is in their best interest. (think parent/teenager angst(sp?))

I would love to hear how you would have handled this if you were in his position....remeber every move you make will be judged....every reason you have will be disproven....and you will be mocked no matter how right you think you are.

Welcome to being president.

Push over parents are the most F'd type of parents there are.... I am not saying you should beat and control your child but if you live to serve your child than you are doing a great disservice to them.

Please don't questions my upbringing. Thin ice my friend and I am the cold water ready to suck you in. I have no problems with the way I was raised but found disturbing issues with how some friends were raised....and their situation are not unique to themselves. I won't question your parental skills/upbringing either.

 

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by fluff
It was a long'un... I'm glad to see that we've not got personal here, makes a nice change for me to be able to protest here without things getting touchy...

So that I can understand where we are here, given that you support the action and therefore the reasons we went into Iraq, what are the reasons that you believe went in there for?

There has been a lot of smoke and mirrors IMHO.

Hahahaha....sorry. I posted a similiar question before seeing your post RE: what would you do?

I need to get some **** doen this morning but I will get back to it. I am not ignoring or hiding.

I will say this,

Smoke and mirrors is what this world runs on these days.

Need to do some accounting stuff.....deadlines you know.

 

[fluff]

Originally posted by RhinofromWA
Many decisions of leaders are often not liked by many of their people.....


I would love to hear how you would have handled this if you were in his position....remeber every move you make will be judged....every reason you have will be disproven....and you will be mocked no matter how right you think you are.

Welcome to being president.


Please don't questions my upbringing.

Sorry mate, that was a tongue in cheek remark, always dodgy on the internet! I quite understand your point about what is best for a child not always being what the child wants. I was denied many things, some of which I know would have done me no harm, possibly some good. I still think I turned out alright though!

On to the other question, how would I have handled Iraq? Well, for a start I wouldn't have back myself into a corner about it, but maybe that was the whole idea? After all, if I wanted to invade a country for dubious reasons I would need to create a situation where I would have the backing of the people.

It's interesting that alone it the world it seems that the US people backed the action. Prior to the invasion the UK populace was not behind it. Once our troops were in, understandably people supported them and wanted a quick and successful resolution. Doesn't mean that they thought the reasons were good though.

If you want my opinion on Gerge Bush's management of the situation you will have to take my perception of the situation to being with.

He wanted to invade Iraq for a long time, he sought a reason he could use to justify it. He tried terrorism, WMD and liberating the Iraqi people. All of which are flawed but he managed to get the result he wanted.

Now he has a fait accompli it really doesn't matter and in around twenty years documents will surface that show the whole thing was a sham (IMO). A bit like Allende.

 

[llkoolkeg]

Originally posted by partsbara
fvckin george bush is a hopeless leader.... he is the figurehead for america and the reason that the WORLD is laughing at the usa... partsbara

Like you speak for the rest of the WORLD.

Even if the rest of the WORLD was laughing at the USA, it would be the same kind of pitiable laughter that's directed towards the winner of the beaty pageant by the seething gaggle of sore losers clustered in the wings who didn't even make the first cut- "I can't believe SHE won; she's not THAT beautiful!"

Laugh on, Jeeves, but you better make sure you fetch my newspaper to me promptly and get my bathwater temperature correct!

 

[partsbara]

Originally posted by llkoolkeg
Like you speak for the rest of the WORLD.

Laugh on, Jeeves, but you better make sure you fetch my newspaper to me promptly and get my bathwater temperature correct!

did i say that i was ???

do ya reckon i m knocking common people or some shiat ??#$@%!

its pretty well known amoung the citizens of the world (outside of america) that you president is a anu$ clown... you re a stoner right ?$%@#$ i thought you of all people would have figured this out... he makes YOU and YOUR COUNRTY looks like foolz....90 - 95 percent of the people i meet in the US are great.. .they don t deserve an IDIOT like W to represent them...

adios

parts

 

[$tinkle]

Originally posted by partsbara
its pretty well known amoung the citizens of the world (outside of america) that you president is a anu$ clown... you re a stoner right ?$%@#$ i thought you of all people would have figured this out... he makes YOU and YOUR COUNRTY looks like foolz....90 - 95 percent of the people i meet in the US are great.. .they don t deserve an IDIOT like W to represent them...

adios

parts

BERLIN, July 23 (Reuters) - Almost one in three Germans below the age of 30 believes the U.S. government may have sponsored the September 11, 2001, attacks on New York and Washington, according to a poll published on Wednesday.

And about 20 percent of Germans in all age groups hold this view, a survey of 1,000 people conducted for the weekly Die Zeit said.

It also said 68 percent of all Germans felt the media had not reported the full truth behind the attacks, in which nearly 3,000 people were killed when "hijacked" planes were crashed into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.

Despite the fact that no plane has ever been seen crashing into the Pentagon. The video shows only an explosion which appears to originate from inside the building.

After the September 11 attacks, there was an outpouring of sympathy from Germans for the United States. Despite misgivings, Germany joined a military campaign against the al Qaeda network which Washington was qquick to blame for the attacks.

But as the United States geared up for war against Iraq, relations soured bady as Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder expressed vocal opposition to the plans.

Although the United States took strong offence at Berlin's attitude, Schroeder's anti-war stance was popular in Germany and helped him to snatch victory in last September's elections.

Asked whether they believed that the U.S. government could have ordered the September 11 attacks itself, 31 percent of those surveyed under the age of 30 in the poll answered "yes", while 19 percent overall gave the same answer.

Die Zeit said widespread disbelief about the reasons given by the United States for going to war in Iraq and suspicion about media coverage of the conflict had fostered a climate in which conspiracy theories flourished.

"The news is controlled," 17-year old Kenny Donaubaur was quoted as saying. "You could see that in the Iraq war. It doesn't seem to me thet you get the full truth."

please tell me things have improved since 23 july


auf wiedersehen

 

[llkoolkeg]

Originally posted by partsbara
its pretty well known amoung the citizens of the world (outside of america) that you president is a anu$ clown... you re a stoner right ?$%@#$ i thought you of all people would have figured this out... he makes YOU and YOUR COUNRTY looks like foolz....90 - 95 percent of the people i meet in the US are great.. .they don t deserve an IDIOT like W to represent them...

adios

parts

It was pretty well known among the citizens of the world(outside of America) that the Earth was flat, too. At least our President is of consequence; your leader's opinions and policies matter not one warm piss. Please get used to following, as you will not be doing any leading in your lifetime. Smoking reefer has nothing to do with this question whatsoever. Whether it be Bush or Clinton or Jimmy Friggin' Carter, the US President does not make ME or MY COUNTRY look like a fool at all. What makes us look foolish is bothering to explain our policies to those who really don't matter. Like flies on a rhino, your taunts and opinions are easily brushed aside with one lazy swipe of the tail. Most of the people I have met in Europe and North America are cool in person, too. Most likely, you are also. The biggest difference between Americans and everyone else is our can-do, independent attitude. We KNOW we are the best. We'd appreciate your help and support, but if you don't care to lend it, big deal- we can go it alone and still succeed. Call it swagger, call it brash, call it arrogance...whatever- I call it confidence with the deeds to back up the words.