Gotta love unions. Air Canada may perish

Andyman_1970 · May 20, 2004

I've said it once and I'll say it again, unions are killing the aircraft industry as a whole.

Serial Midget · May 20, 2004

I didn't know Canada had a national airline... go figure.

Silver · May 20, 2004

Air Canada sucks.

The check in terminal at LAX? 5am...0 people in line, 3 people working. Middle of the day, flights going out to Calgary, Vancouver, and Toronto with 500 people in line, 3 people working.

My blood pressure dropped 20 points after I started flying Alaska.

Silver · May 20, 2004

Originally posted by MMike
Eww.... Alaska sucks ass....or their planes do anyway. I despise those 737NG's. I'm 5'9" and I feel cramped in them.

I don't much care for the "breakfast burrito" they serve either.

I sleep on the plane and don't eat the food...so I'm more anal about the check in experience than most people...

Silver · May 20, 2004

Originally posted by MMike
Which makes me wonder why I'm wasting my time wiring up coloured "mood lighting" and powered window shades on these damned things......

If you find a way to shield the things so that I can use my iPod through takeoff and landing, I will worship at your feet...

Tenchiro · May 20, 2004

Originally posted by MMike
Then through horrible mismanagement, the airline is now bankrupt.

Then through horrible mismanagement, the airline is now bankrupt...

Lets think about that statement for a few minutes, shall we. Personally I didn't realize that Unions had anything to do with managing companies.

Who is to blame for the airlines failure again?

Tenchiro · May 20, 2004

Originally posted by MMike
Didn't i sort of address that?

It sounds like the company will go under no matter what the employees do, so why should the give up their pay.

MTB_Rob_NC · May 20, 2004

Originally posted by Tenchiro
Then through horrible mismanagement, the airline is now bankrupt...

Lets think about that statement for a few minutes, shall we. Personally I didn't realize that Unions had anything to do with managing companies.

Who is to blame for the airlines failure again?

Ummm ya exactly, your statement is a PERFECT example of the short sightedness of "Labor."

Management is much more than just the white shirts and ties in the office doing things you do not understand. It is their responsibility that the organization as a whole is a healthy ongoing profitable entity. Labor costs in the airline (or almost any industry) is one of the key components of total cost. Who is the one holding back managements' ability to control those costs in this case?

valve bouncer · May 20, 2004

Originally posted by Andyman_1970
I've said it once and I'll say it again, unions are killing the aircraft industry as a whole.

Really? And what do you back this up with? I'm actually interested.

Silver · May 21, 2004

Originally posted by Mtb_Rob_FL
Ummm ya exactly, your statement is a PERFECT example of the short sightedness of "Labor."

Management is much more than just the white shirts and ties in the office doing things you do not understand. It is their responsibility that the organization as a whole is a healthy ongoing profitable entity. Labor costs in the airline (or almost any industry) is one of the key components of total cost. Who is the one holding back managements' ability to control those costs in this case?

Except that every airline deals with the same costs.

An aircraft mechanic is one place I don't want a company to skimp...it's not like throwing potatoes in the fryer. The guy at McDonalds screws up, and I have pickles on my quarter pounder, the airline mechanic screws up, and I'm fish food...

Ridemonkey · May 21, 2004

Originally posted by Silver
Except that every airline deals with the same costs.

An aircraft mechanic is one place I don't want a company to skimp...it's not like throwing potatoes in the fryer. The guy at McDonalds screws up, and I have pickles on my quarter pounder, the airline mechanic screws up, and I'm fish food...

You don't like pickles on your Quarter Pounder? :confused:

Silver · May 21, 2004

Originally posted by Ridemonkey
You don't like pickles on your Quarter Pounder?

I don't eat at McDonald's, it was just an example.

But no, I don't like pickles at all, unless they are wrapped in a piece of ham and held together with a toothpick.

Andyman_1970 · May 21, 2004

Originally posted by valve bouncer
Really? And what do you back this up with? I'm actually interested.

My own experience in the aircraft industry for over 7 years.

The cost vs. productivity of a union employee is higher(cost) than a non-union (lower cost). Our facility got the next generation airplane that should be certified later this year primarily because we are non-union and our cost of doing business is less than our parent Wichita facility (union).

More and more aircraft companies (manufactureres) are outsourcing more and more work and not just to get business with those foreign countries. It's much cheaper to have Japan make a wing than say the union employees in Seattle or Wichita.

It's very apparent in the state of the US aircraft manufacturing industry if they don't figure out how to control and reduce costs, many jobs are going to go overseas. Case in point, the wire harness on one of our smaller and newer business jets we outsourced to Mexico even after the wire shop in Wichita did everything under the sun to reduce costs. It takes a certain number of people to build up a wire harness, it's (at least from what I have seen) labor intensive and hard to automate. The one cost the Wichita folks couldn't (or wouldn't) reduce was labor, so the work goes to Mexico.

sshappy · May 21, 2004

Originally posted by Andyman_1970
It's very apparent in the state of the US aircraft manufacturing industry if they don't figure out how to control and reduce costs, many jobs are going to go overseas.

The one cost the Wichita folks couldn't (or wouldn't) reduce was labor, so the work goes to Mexico.

This is only part of the picture, there are more factors involved than simply the cost of labor. I don't suppose that you have access to any figures, or perhaps that you could post them even if you had them, but if a company is looking to reduce expense it is doing so in order to raise profits (at a basic level).

At what point does profit become excessive and at what point does it therefore become unjust to expect your workers to accept lower wages in order to boost profits?

I do not know the specific figures for the aerospace industries but I am aware of examples within the pharmaceutical industry where Executives have ridiculous contracts that could cover the wage of several hundred non-management employees. This includes instances where the chief execs have been dumped due to (extremely) poor performance and receive golden parachutes of over $10 million.

Unions and labor are an easy target. Perhaps Air Canada's execs should also return some of their hard-earned cash in respect of the poor management.

Andyman_1970 · May 21, 2004

Originally posted by sshappy
This is only part of the picture, there are more factors involved than simply the cost of labor. I don't suppose that you have access to any figures, or perhaps that you could post them even if you had them, but if a company is looking to reduce expense it is doing so in order to raise profits (at a basic level).

I have access and see our companies F & O numbers every quarter. The largest cost we have is labor and things associated with it (SS, medical insurance, etc). I would post them, but I like my job, so..........

The second largest cost we incure is inventory, which is easier to get rid of (eventually) and less painful than a lay off.

Originally posted by sshappy
At what point does profit become excessive and at what point does it therefore become unjust to expect your workers to accept lower wages in order to boost profits?

Our company, and I dare say a large portion of other aircraft manufacturers since 9/11 have not made a profit or just broke even. Last year was the first year in a few years that our company broke even. Part of that problem was pre-9/11 mismanagement and gross ineffiecentices that incurred huge costs. Since 9/11, about 2500-3000 people have been laid off, inventories reduced, assests sold, and the workforce "leaned" out. We now have a somewhat healthy company financially, but margins are so slim that if there is one "hiccup" we either lose money or just break even.

In our industry (since jobs are few and far between), it would seem that you could freeze or lower wages until the company is healthy and then go back to how it was. This was the case in my department. They leaned out the engineering department severly, to the point work was not getting done. We were "asked" to work overtime with no pay, go from 66 days of sick time to 5, and raise your insurance. As much as I grumbled, I was cool with that, I had a job in a difficult market and I understood that. But we had several engineers leave, and to control that (the market is marginally better than it was 8-12 months ago), myself and several other "core" engineers got 2 raises in a months time. They knew that if they did not compensate us we would eventually leave. Supply and demand.

Did that answer your question?

Damn True · May 21, 2004

SBC went on strike today too. Their health care costs are 50% of the national average and they are still bitching.

Andyman_1970 · May 21, 2004

Originally posted by MMike
I'm sure this was already looked into, but how big is this wire bundle assy? Carlyle or Labinal couldn't build it for you? We sub out 99% of our WBA's to Carlyle

We used to do them all ourselves (we don't sub out any of thw work we do here) and now someplace in Mexico (can't recall the co. name) is going to do them. This is not for all our airplanes just this one model.

Skookum · May 22, 2004

Originally posted by MMike
Heh...Gotta love it eh? 99% of plane crashes are due to electrical failures..... The "Made in Mexico" label should give everyone a warm fuzzy feeling!

Regardless of hardwiring into putting the blame on either the Unions or the Execs, or the govt, or the lawyers, or the high cost's of dental and medical, and terrorists and so on and so forth, your slow subtle anti plane propaganda seems strange to me knowin you ride a mt. bike as i assume you do... in an extreme dangerous manner, defying gravity.
You don't happen to ride a mexican built bike by any chance?.....

ummbikes · May 24, 2004

Originally posted by MMike
The "Made in Mexico" label should give everyone a warm fuzzy feeling!

It makes me feel warm and fuzzy. :rolleyes:

ummbikes · May 24, 2004

Originally posted by ummbikes
It makes me feel warm and fuzzy.

Because, at least the job didn't go to you.

ummbikes · May 24, 2004

Originally posted by ummbikes
Because, at least the job didn't go to you.

Mr. I love Canada, and America sucks, but I love to poach off the economy.

ummbikes · May 24, 2004

Originally posted by MMike
(You trying to drive up your post count?)

And don't forget stealing your women!!

Eh, I was trying something new. It didn't work as well as I hoped. Oh well.

ummbikes · May 24, 2004

Originally posted by MMike
...when we don't do the same stuff? That's like making a chef work on a farm. They're sort of related, but not really the same thing.

Hey I was reaching, I haven't been in a good fight online for a few months.

I guess if I did have a point, I forgot what it was.

Skookum · May 24, 2004

Originally posted by MMike
Uhhhh....what?

haha... ok let's try that again.

You've stated in posts before you have no faith in the safety of airlines today, i just thought it curious since you and many of us ride dangerously. We could die getting booted and landing wrong on a gap jump or crash on rare plane crash on a vacation to Kukamunga.

Really wasn't trying to go anywhere with it, being tired and bored is a deadly combination in the political forum especially....

Gotta love unions. Air Canada may perish

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