This wasn't the indignant response I had envisioned...Westy said:
"Wider" I think they'd call it.
great... 10 US Soldiers dead in Falluja
- Thread starter dante
- Start date
"Wider" I think they'd call it.
1) Every Government has to start somewhere.BurlyShirley said:
2) There is a small Iraqi army already, and a sizeable police force. Plus they are not so helpless they could not train themselves. They have manged it in the past.
3) With 2 billion dollars, they could easily hire their own private army from somewhere other than the US to ensure their security. If you really want you could do a phased handover.
Wrong. They want the US out first and foremost. I'm sure that grabbing a bit of power is a secondary objective, but without the radicalizing force of the US presence, the traditionaly sensible and secular Iraqi people will reject their leadership. If the US is still present when these elections take place, there will be a far greater chance of Radical elements being elected to government legitimatly, thus planting the seeds for democratic radicalisation of the country at a later date.
No, Sorry, you're wrong. Pay attention. Tjousands have fled Falluja, including of course, many of the radicals, ready to take their stand in the next town.
Your plan will end up having to decimate every major city in Iraq and will still end up with a massive radical presence in the countryside. Didn't you learn anything from Afghanistan? But, hey, Kill everyone: Great plan!
If I was particularly cynical I might suggest they're having a pretty good go at defending themselves right now.
If you stay till the vote, you will be voted against. Radicals, or radical sympathetic elements will be voted in. If you can't see that you are in denial.
To be honest all of this is moot. None of this will happen. George Bush is not there to install a democracy. This may happen as a bi-product, but as you know, but have trouble admitting, you did not go into Iraq to help the Iraqi people. You went in for Oil. The US will be in there until a situation comes about which allows the US to control the oil in the country, even if that means a permanent presence, and constant skirmishes. Say it ain't so.
That bio-fruit may be the humanitarian solution Changleen is hoping the US will implement in Iraq. We can combine grapples with a touch of soap to create Grapalm. Then we paste fallujah with it, simultaneously feeding and cleaning the innocents while killing the infidels with a sweet smelling personal inferno.Westy said:
dan-o said:
Ohhhh, I LIKE it!!!!
Why bother with all the genetic engineering? Bush doesn't believe in it anyway. You could just go on using regular napalm, though: http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2003-08/10/article10.shtmldan-o said:
Changleen said:
AHAHAHAH! I knew you'd use that "source" sooner or later...
dan-o said:
But the lable says, "Pork Free"...
Now we are thinking. When all is said and done we roll in the Tomacco and roll in the $$ with tangy niteshade addiction.dan-o said:
Changleen said:I think it's 100x more reputable than most of the 'articles' you post...
Gee - there's a suprise.
Changleen said:I think it's 100x more reputable than most of the 'articles' you post...
...and that good readers... is a WRAP!
You have a skewed view of the situation. Why on earth do you think they want the US gone more than they want power? They only want the US gone so they can grab the power.Changleen said:
As for their troops, it is not a sizable army. It is still relatively small and thus far powerless as we have seen demonstrated. Sure with a bunch of money they could just hire some other troops, but that isnt the long term solution. No one is better at training military forces than the US. To leave now would create such total Chaos, do you not understand that EVERYTHING would collapse? This govt. wouldnt have a chance to start if not for the US presence.
And did you say something about another Afghanistan? You mean the one that just held free elections?
The US will never control Iraq's oil changleen. You just dont seem to get it. We may very well buy most of it, but that will be at the profit of the Iraqis as a whole instead of Saddam Hussein himself. Its like your conspiracy theories dont even allow you to think.
Freeing up a large portion of the world's oil resources from a maniac isnt such a bad thing either when you look at it.
Face it. The only way to keep Iraq stable is to have US troops thre until the govt. can watch its own back. We asked the UN for help, but got none. This isnt a job for mercenaries either. It needs to be done right, and you need to lay off the conspiracy kool-aid and watch this thing work.
Wow, and you think MY vision is skewed...BurlyShirley said:
OK, Look we're never going to agree on this and I have a lot of work to do today. I have a strong urge to dig at your points but we're going to end up in circles like always. Let's just see what happens shall we?
I'm betting that as long as the US stays there there will be continuing violence, and you'll end up with a sham election like in Afghanistan, where only Kabul is 'safe and democratic' and the rest (70%) of the country and 50% of the population is once again in the hands of warlords under sharia law and the country is the number one producer of Opium in the world already. Nice job guys. Still, looks good when viewed through the Fox News filter.
And as for the US being the best trainers in the world...Whatever, Dude.
Let's just let this one die eh? It's getting old already.
Wow, glad I missed all this until now...
There's everywhere and nowhere to start with this one.
The one thing I would like to point out to you, Changleen, is that conscientious objectors are people who refuse to be drafted, not soldiers who refuse to obey orders.
I'm generally appreciative of your presence on the forum, but your comments have honestly perplexed me. I thought more of you. The little spat Ciaran and I had (and we've since cleared up) the other week was spurred on by what I thought was an ignorant comment, but your comments aren't ignorant at all...they're just malicious and hateful. I can see you now, ready to quote ' criminals' and 'malicious and hateful' and pair them with an image of dead Iraqis or the president or something, but you needn't bother (though I'm sure you will anyhow).
I'm just really disappointed that you'd lash out like that so illogically. (I know, I can see your response that 'logical people wouldn't go fight in that illegal war.')
But the military simply can't work without people who are willing, under any circumstance, to put personal and political feelings aside to accomplish the mission to which they are directed, within the legal contraints put forth (in America's case, in the Uniform Code of Military Justice). I'm never going to say America shouldn't have an effective military, so we can't have a military which questions its orders.
Frankly, if the military doesn't do what the civilians want (through inaction OR action), it has become a danger to the society it should serve. If it doesn't go to Iraq, why should it not do whatever else it feels like? Say, take domestic action...influence politics...all those great things associated with military juntas in so many enlightened nations around the world?
I know you know I'm not an idiot, and I'd be over there if my orders told me to be over there, and I'd be doing what I had to do to get the job done. I've never thought you were an idiot, but now I'm seeing that you're so rooted in your own ideology, and planning on/enjoying rooting yourself deeper, that discussion or debate seems pointless. So I can't believe I've even written this much.
MD
There's everywhere and nowhere to start with this one.
The one thing I would like to point out to you, Changleen, is that conscientious objectors are people who refuse to be drafted, not soldiers who refuse to obey orders.
I'm generally appreciative of your presence on the forum, but your comments have honestly perplexed me. I thought more of you. The little spat Ciaran and I had (and we've since cleared up) the other week was spurred on by what I thought was an ignorant comment, but your comments aren't ignorant at all...they're just malicious and hateful. I can see you now, ready to quote ' criminals' and 'malicious and hateful' and pair them with an image of dead Iraqis or the president or something, but you needn't bother (though I'm sure you will anyhow).
I'm just really disappointed that you'd lash out like that so illogically. (I know, I can see your response that 'logical people wouldn't go fight in that illegal war.')
But the military simply can't work without people who are willing, under any circumstance, to put personal and political feelings aside to accomplish the mission to which they are directed, within the legal contraints put forth (in America's case, in the Uniform Code of Military Justice). I'm never going to say America shouldn't have an effective military, so we can't have a military which questions its orders.
Frankly, if the military doesn't do what the civilians want (through inaction OR action), it has become a danger to the society it should serve. If it doesn't go to Iraq, why should it not do whatever else it feels like? Say, take domestic action...influence politics...all those great things associated with military juntas in so many enlightened nations around the world?
I know you know I'm not an idiot, and I'd be over there if my orders told me to be over there, and I'd be doing what I had to do to get the job done. I've never thought you were an idiot, but now I'm seeing that you're so rooted in your own ideology, and planning on/enjoying rooting yourself deeper, that discussion or debate seems pointless. So I can't believe I've even written this much.
MD
No. You die for your beliefs and are a concientious objector when you are drafted and refuse to go.fluff said:
When you VOLUNTEER, and then QUIT, you are a pussy.
You don't seem to understand that you have NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. Opinions aside, factually you have your head so far up your ass you are starting to see light again.Changleen said:
Oh, and I am not american.
Holy crap, you really are as stupid as you seem.Changleen said:
Kick the hell out of a country, and then leave it in ruins with no active working government. Great plan!
lol.....it's nice to se everyone here agree on something, that something being that Changleen is nuts. 
Who'da thought that it only took was an outspoken New Zealander to bring our political sides together. 
Who'da thought that it only took was an outspoken New Zealander to bring our political sides together.
Transcend said:Holy crap, you really are as stupid as you seem.
Kick the hell out of a country, and then leave it in ruins with no active working government. Great plan!
Besides everyone knows the practically the best thing that can happen to a country is to get crushed by the US. We'll spend billions upon billions to build it back better that it ever was so it can compete with us globally. All new infrastructure, new constituion, new goverment paid for by us the US tax payer.
Enjoy!
exactly, but you gotta let them rebuild! This guy wants you to cut and run.N8 said:Besides everyone knows the practically the best thing that can happen to a country is to get crushed by the US. We'll spend billions upon billions to build it back better that it ever was so it can compete with us globally. All new infrastructure, new constituion, new goverment paid for by us the US tax payer.
Enjoy!
I try to stay away from the political forum as a rule, but watching that sort of stupidity run unchecked is enough to push just about anyone over the edge.I Are Baboon said:lol.....it's nice to se everyone here agree on something, that something being that Changleen is nuts.
So Westy likes grapples..... the first step in my plan for world domination is underway....
Oh and who knew tuna was so flamible. I guess fish for dinner wasn't in my future.
Chanqleen wow...... that's all I can say is wow. Oh and I finally found the source of N8s quote from the Chanq man. Dude.... WOW.
I just finished my 12th beer. One of which was a Samuel Adams Chocolate Bock and another was two glasses of Utopia....beer with a 25%abv..... Did I mention that my dinner went up in flames? Anyone know how to get the smell of burnt fish out of a house?
Transcend (oh christmas tree oh christmas tree) I'm with you on the pussy comment... Is it okay to say pussy under the rulz? sorry if it isn't.
I'm eying a bottle of grappa in my freezer, that might be jst the thing for dinner....
Oh and who knew tuna was so flamible. I guess fish for dinner wasn't in my future.
Chanqleen wow...... that's all I can say is wow. Oh and I finally found the source of N8s quote from the Chanq man. Dude.... WOW.
I just finished my 12th beer. One of which was a Samuel Adams Chocolate Bock and another was two glasses of Utopia....beer with a 25%abv..... Did I mention that my dinner went up in flames? Anyone know how to get the smell of burnt fish out of a house?
Transcend (oh christmas tree oh christmas tree) I'm with you on the pussy comment... Is it okay to say pussy under the rulz? sorry if it isn't.
I'm eying a bottle of grappa in my freezer, that might be jst the thing for dinner....
Good post Mike. To be honest, my main point I was trying to make was that the war is stupid and pointless, and I kind of over-reacted/got pissed off by the crap posted by others and vented spleen about the whole troop thing. I don't really think that every soldier can be expected to question every action he takes, however it was a good laugh watching certain idiots get all bent out of shape, and I can also tell you that I personally would never follow such orders from above. I do think once you reach the level of officer you should be practicing some sort of discernment when carrying out orders, and I do think that higher up the chain of command there are people giving order that they must know are utterly immoral based on the utter lack of reason for this war. Anyway, whatever. It's an argument on the internet.MikeD said:
You need to get out more, and you should try and stick to your own rules.s1ngletrack said:I try to stay away from the political forum as a rule, but watching that sort of stupidity run unchecked is enough to push just about anyone over the edge.
Transcend said:
Thank YOU Mr. T, about time someone else point out the slight imperfection of Mr. Changleen.
So you are saying it's not better than what Saddam was doing to this poor country? oh, all the mislenous secret excutions, rapes, robberries sure don't mean a thing to you then?Changleen said:
Wow, now changleen is a Saddam Apologist. Life is good.....
life may or may not be better for iraqis. i don't care. what i do care about is that life is worse for u.s. citizens as a result of the iraq war, due to increased animosity towards the u.s. and the resulting increase in support for radical causes, the death toll among u.s. troops, and the staggering and ongoing cost of the iraq war.nicklin said:So you are saying it's not better than what Saddam was doing to this poor country? oh, all the mislenous secret excutions, rapes, robberries sure don't mean a thing to you then?
Wow, now changleen is a Saddam Apologist. Life is good.....
why do conservatives all of a sudden become pious about human rights issues, when previous administrations have shown that the buck is almighty?
<-- literally
Did you read my mail? You may want to re-read it as I did not say that refusing to obey orders was being a concientious objector. I actually said: "And for Changleen - you cannot sign up and then suddenly get a conscience when an actual fire-fight comes along."Transcend said:
I was however pointing out that genuine concientious objectors have gone before a firing squad rather than take up arms to kill others - very much dying for their beliefs and not being pussies in any way.
So your beef is not with me.
sounds typical enough for meToshi said:
Yup, that's exactly what I said. You can compare it - letter for letter. See how they are exactly the same?nicklin said:So you are saying it's not better than what Saddam was doing to this poor country? oh, all the mislenous secret excutions, rapes, robberries sure don't mean a thing to you then?
Wow, now changleen is a Saddam Apologist. Life is good.....
You can call me whatever you want if it makes you feel better. I don't give a crap. It might look a bit better if you spelt it right, but hey, I know your government thinks killing 'evildoers' is more important than the education of it's own, so I'll forgive you that one.
However, I do suggest you take time out to compare these grievances you obviously feel so strongly about with the very recent record of your own country, if you can actually find it anywhere within your own borders.