[fluff]

Fluff, I'm disapointed that you're avoiding confrontation with this self-righteous moron. Although I can see why. He certainly is annoying.

Dude, you have been way out there on this one. Can you not see the following:

1. Troops sign up to follow orders regardless of whether they think they are good, i.e. they agree to put themselves in harms way for the good of their country and put their faith in their leaders.

2. The war is a fact, the best we can hope for is a swift resolution with minimal casualties and a hopeful future.

3. Whether you like Bush or not the Iraqi fighters are not heroes, they do not care about Iraqi civilians or they would not use them as cover.

4. Falluja needs to be stable and policeable by any future (and hopefully democratic) Iraqi government.

5. The US troops on the ground are not necessarily evil, some will be good guys, some less so - as in any walk of life.

6. You come across as feeling that the US troops deserve to die.

7. Which makes you come across as a dick.

Normally I think you have some valid points, 9/11 conspiracies aside, but as I've said before your rhetoric antagonises and alienates others here and you need to tone it down. In this thread you've gone way past what I see as acceptable and whilst I can see that others have responded in like manner I have little sympathy for you this time.

 

[DRB]

Dude, you have been way out there on this one. Can you not see the following:

1. Troops sign up to follow orders regardless of whether they think they are good, i.e. they agree to put themselves in harms way for the good of their country and put their faith in their leaders.

2. The war is a fact, the best we can hope for is a swift resolution with minimal casualties and a hopeful future.

3. Whether you like Bush or not the Iraqi fighters are not heroes, they do not care about Iraqi civilians or they would not use them as cover.

4. Falluja needs to be stable and policeable by any future (and hopefully democratic) Iraqi government.

5. The US troops on the ground are not necessarily evil, some will be good guys, some less so - as in any walk of life.

6. You come across as feeling that the US troops deserve to die.

7. Which makes you come across as a dick.

Normally I think you have some valid points, 9/11 conspiracies aside, but as I've said before your rhetoric antagonises and alienates others here and you need to tone it down. In this thread you've gone way past what I see as acceptable and whilst I can see that others have responded in like manner I have little sympathy for you this time.

<with a wicked mean hangover>
Why I always like debating with Fluff.

 

[fluff]

Looks like life is better for these Iraqis...http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4002989.stm

 

[fluff]

<with a wicked mean hangover>
Why I always like debating with Fluff.

We've had our moments iirc...

Hope the cause of the hangover was worth the pain...

 

[MikeD]

So you are saying it's not better than what Saddam was doing to this poor country? oh, all the mislenous secret excutions, rapes, robberries sure don't mean a thing to you then?

Wow, now changleen is a Saddam Apologist. Life is good.....

Seriously. This is such a crap argument. Why do lives of Iraqis mean so much to us Americans suddenly, now that the 'immenent threat' and WMD justifications for the war have melted away? I'm tired of hearing this, when there are downtrodden and abused populations worldwide which we in the US have helped to oppress by supporting their dictators (hell, INCLUDING Hussein...). America can't justify this war to anyone but ourselves by rolling out the banner of freedom and democracy, and it's astonishing that we seem indifferent to our own hypocrisy and transparency.

It's such an obvious psychological salve, because the we in the US always want it to be 1946, when we felt our oats as world liberators and all-around good guys. It's not, and now we're stuck in a long-term conflict that ties up our military with a fairly useless (from an American foreign policy standpoint) goal, and encourages our real enemies. It shows them that while you can't beat America in a fistfight, you can tie us up in expensive and politically draining situations abroad. It's like we're in the UFC, and we're the big guy trying to beat up Joyce Gracie, who can't overpower us, but can just keep us wrapped up where we don't want to be while we exhaust ourselves and gradually get choked off.

Am I a Saddam Apologist? Hardly. To label me so is part of the typical (and quite politically effective) playground-style tactic of the Republican party...turn every situation into some sort of easily-digestible polar opposition, on which your side is the only credible view. (You're either for the war or for Saddam Hussein, in this case.) (And no, I'm no huge fan of Democratic tactics, either, which pretty much consist of being a giant pussy.)

Would democracy in Iraq help the US? Yeah, I think to an extent it would. However, bringing it in in a big red-white-and-blue package accompanied by lots of bombs hasn't helped much to make it appear legitimate, stable, or independent to either the Iraqi people, the Middle East, or the world at large. Frankly, Iraq was one of the middle eastern countries that had potential to democratize on an evolutionary path...it came from a secular background with western-style rule, not a militant Islamic theocracy. All we've done is import militant Islam, moreso than democracy, and convert moderates to anti-US radicals.

Personally, I think the US should have been involved with Iraq's future...but on a covert level, guiding the building a network and base of support by Iraqis themselves to foment a (hopefully) quick coup against Hussein's sons when the old man finally died, and letting the Iraqis set up a government without being handicapped the appearance of US imperialism or the en-masse arrival of Islamic radicals.

But since that's outside of the binary opposition we like to set up, I guess it's not a legitimate view.

MD

 

[fluff]

Would democracy in Iraq help the US? Yeah, I think to an extent it would. However, bringing it in in a big red-white-and-blue package accompanied by lots of bombs hasn't helped much to make it appear legitimate, stable, or independent to either the Iraqi people, the Middle East, or the world at large. Frankly, Iraq was one of the middle eastern countries that had potential to democratize on an evolutionary path...it came from a secular background with western-style rule, not a militant Islamic theocracy. All we've done is import militant Islam, moreso than democracy, and convert moderates to anti-US radicals.

Interestingly Iran was moving towards reform and democracy three years ago but the US policy towards Iraq and towards them has strengthened the hands of the Conservative Islamists and they're slipping back towards the Islamist state again. A good illustration of the pitfalls of a declared pre-emptive strike policy and the Axis of Evil labels being counter-productive to your declared aims. Of course, declared aims are not always that truthful...

 

[dan-o]

Interestingly Iran was moving towards reform and democracy three years ago but the US policy towards Iraq and towards them has strengthened the hands of the Conservative Islamists and they're slipping back towards the Islamist state again. A good illustration of the pitfalls of a declared pre-emptive strike policy and the Axis of Evil labels being counter-productive to your declared aims. Of course, declared aims are not always that truthful...

That'll all get sorted when we build the Baghdad-Kabul cross town expressway.

 

[Btyler311]

Oh come on, This is all pointless drivel.

They aren't christians, never found Jesus, so we are totally justified in killing as many as it takes.

I mean if we just can hurry up and finnish the job we can get back to doing the really important work like outlawing abortion, all birth control except abstinance and making tithing to Jimmy swaggart a part of the tax code. Oh yeah, and doing away with that pesky Halloween and Santa Clause and his pagen sex symbol pal the Easter bunny.

Go in peace with Christ my brothers,

Ty

 

[JRogers]

Oh come on, This is all pointless drivel.

They aren't christians, never found Jesus, so we are totally justified in killing as many as it takes.

I mean if we just can hurry up and finnish the job we can get back to doing the really important work like outlawing abortion, all birth control except abstinance and making tithing to Jimmy swaggart a part of the tax code. Oh yeah, and doing away with that pesky Halloween and Santa Clause and his pagen sex symbol pal the Easter bunny.

Go in peace with Christ my brothers,

Ty

Wait......hold on.......okay. My tinfoil hat is on now, so could you type that again.

 

[jaydee]

This is one great thread! It's bringing out a lot of extremism. It really points out that neither extreme really stands up to examination.

The US are NOT there to save Iraqis; they're there for the oil. So you can understand someone thinking it's kind of immoral to be slaughtering innocent Iraqis in the name of freeing them, even if they do blow up the occasional militant.

It's too late to back out now. The vacuum it would leave would turn into a worse killing ground than it already is. The militants do need to be contained or exterminated, as do the al Quaeda, but this type of war is not effective. Remember Vietnam? No visible enemy means no possibility of winning. The world has to find better way to do it.

The Iraqis may be better off in 20 years than they were under Saddam, but they are no better off now. It's up to the US to find an intelligent way to end this thing, since they began it, but they are not headed in any intelligent direction with it right now.

The whole discussion about the soldier's duty is a little ridiculous. If you sign up for the US Army, you'd better be ready to kill people or die, because that's what they do. I have no sympathy for deserters. I have a lot of sympathy for conscientious objectors. Crucify me, but I don't believe a moral person could enlist in the US Army in this era. Bush's army is NOT in the least about protecting the USA; protecting its interests maybe. A military hero dies protecting his homeland. Killing for oil does not make one a hero. I don't want to offend anyone over there or their families, but I feel more sympathy for an innocent civilian caught in the crossfire than a contracted gunman who knows what he is in for.

I just wish it would be over and the soldiers who are left could come home safe. Just like in the Vietnam era, only you Americans at home can bring them home, Bush won't do it unless you force him.

 

[Transcend]

This is one great thread! It's bringing out a lot of extremism. It really points out that neither extreme really stands up to examination.

The US are NOT there to save Iraqis; they're there for the oil. So you can understand someone thinking it's kind of immoral to be slaughtering innocent Iraqis in the name of freeing them, even if they do blow up the occasional militant.

It's too late to back out now. The vacuum it would leave would turn into a worse killing ground than it already is. The militants do need to be contained or exterminated, as do the al Quaeda, but this type of war is not effective. Remember Vietnam? No visible enemy means no possibility of winning. The world has to find better way to do it.

The Iraqis may be better off in 20 years than they were under Saddam, but they are no better off now. It's up to the US to find an intelligent way to end this thing, since they began it, but they are not headed in any intelligent direction with it right now.

The whole discussion about the soldier's duty is a little ridiculous. If you sign up for the US Army, you'd better be ready to kill people or die, because that's what they do. I have no sympathy for deserters. I have a lot of sympathy for conscientious objectors. Crucify me, but I don't believe a moral person could enlist in the US Army in this era. Bush's army is NOT in the least about protecting the USA; protecting its interests maybe. A military hero dies protecting his homeland. Killing for oil does not make one a hero. I don't want to offend anyone over there or their families, but I feel more sympathy for an innocent civilian caught in the crossfire than a contracted gunman who knows what he is in for.

I just wish it would be over and the soldiers who are left could come home safe. Just like in the Vietnam era, only you Americans at home can bring them home, Bush won't do it unless you force him.

The part about oil is just wrong. They are there to set up a preventative democracy. It's not about the iraquis or oil at all....it is about fostering democracy through the domino effect in the middle east. America can no longer segregate itself from the world, it cannot insulate itself from humanity. Therefore it is attempting to set up lex humana.

BTW preventative democracies have been shown to not work, especially on an unwilling populace.

 

[fluff]

The part about oil is just wrong. They are there to set up a preventative democracy. It's not about the iraquis or oil at all....it is about fostering democracy through the domino effect in the middle east. America can no longer segregate itself from the world, it cannot insulate itself from humanity. Therefore it is attempting to set up lex humana.

BTW preventative democracies have been shown to not work, especially on an unwilling populace.

You cannot entirely divorce this from oil. Oil is the reason that the Middle East is so strategically important. After all there is no vision of preventative democracies in Africa. If there were no oil there we would not be there either.

 

[DRB]

This is one great thread! It's bringing out a lot of extremism. It really points out that neither extreme really stands up to examination.

SNIP
Crucify me, but I don't believe a moral person could enlist in the US Army in this era. Bush's army is NOT in the least about protecting the USA; protecting its interests maybe.

That's a pretty extreme judgement and one I find pretty far off. Let's start with the obvious.... what of the soldiers that join the military to become doctors, nurses and medics? They are providing aid and comfort to any and all. Its a triage based system, the sickest go first regardless. I really don't think I need to go any farther than that.

Protecting the US and protecting its interests are one in the same and can't logically be separated. A discussion about what the US's interests is about the only place to go with that arguement. And I think it would be a pretty hard arguement to refute a safe and stable oil supply as being a vital US interest. Whether actions in Iraq are going to protect that or any other interest is another discussion.

A military hero dies protecting his homeland. Killing for oil does not make one a hero. I don't want to offend anyone over there or their families, but I feel more sympathy for an innocent civilian caught in the crossfire than a contracted gunman who knows what he is in for.

As for your definition of hero..... you are way off on that. A hero does not die protecting his homeland. That's their duty. Doing ones' duty doesn't make anyone a hero. What makes a hero is a person that puts himself in harms' way protecting a fellow human from bodily harm or further bodily harm. When you make the decision to run into fire to pull a guy to safety the thought in your mind is not God or Country.

Additionally, the soldiers are there following orders. They aren't killing for oil. They are carrying out their mission. Any blood on their hands is on the hands of the command authority not theirs. There are obvious exceptions when the soldiers quit following orders. That distinction is very very important and gets lost far too often.

 

[MikeD]

You cannot entirely divorce this from oil. Oil is the reason that the Middle East is so strategically important. After all there is no vision of preventative democracies in Africa. If there were no oil there we would not be there either.

There's oil in Africa. We don't care what goes on in the countries that control it, so long as we have unfettered access. We don't care to topple African dictators and install friendly democracies so long as the dictators sell us cheap oil-just like we do with middle eastern dictators and kings. In fact, it's easier to control a dictator who you've installed than it is to control a democracy, so we're not so worried about that.

It's just that in Iraq, we had to find a way to topple the very same dictator we'd been propping up for years prior, so we did it under the aegis of democracy and freedom.

Believe me, if the civil unrest in Nigeria grows to more than its current state (there's a seccessionist crisis that is interfering with western oil companies there), we may find another place in need of political change from without.

MD

 

[Silver]

Protecting the US and protecting its interests are one in the same and can't logically be separated. A discussion about what the US's interests is about the only place to go with that arguement. And I think it would be a pretty hard arguement to refute a safe and stable oil supply as being a vital US interest. Whether actions in Iraq are going to protect that or any other interest is another discussion.

The real question is why do Americans believe that they should be in control of the worlds oil supply if they don't own it? And why do they many of them believe that any means necessary is an acceptable policy for themselves and not anyone else.

 

[DRB]

The real question is why do Americans believe that they should be in control of the worlds oil supply if they don't own it? And why do they many of them believe that any means necessary is an acceptable policy for themselves and not anyone else.

Meanest dog on the porch syndrome?

 

[Silver]

Meanest dog on the porch syndrome?

I guess my question is, if you're the police, who will police the police?

 

[DRB]

I guess my question is, if you're the police, who will police the police?

The UN?

 

[Silver]

The UN?

The correct answer was, "I dunno...Coast Guard?"

(Simpsons reference...sorry.)

 

[N8 v2.0]

The UN?

Speaking of the UN... how's that 'blue ribbon' committee doing in the Sudan? HAve they determined if genocide has occured there yet?

 

[DRB]

Speaking of the UN... how's that 'blue ribbon' committee doing in the Sudan? HAve they determined if genocide has occured there yet?

Still 80 days to go. I could go around the world in that time, I'll stop by the Sudan and see what's up.

 

[DRB]

The correct answer was, "I dunno...Coast Guard?"

(Simpsons reference...sorry.)

DOH!!!!

 

[thesacrifice]

8 million soldiers died in ww1, whats the beef?

 

[N8 v2.0]

38 of our soldiers and marines have died fighting the enemy in Fallujah. Reports say some 1,200 enemy dead...

 

[flat broke]

Seriously - at this stage - just get the troops out. Every day you spend just compounds the problem you have created. This war is possibly the greatest recruitment tool for Islamic terrorism the world has ever known. You need to admit the mistake and back away from it. Instead of spending 2 billion a week on troop support, give the money to the Iraqis and let them rebuild the country for themselves. They'll appreciate it more than the ongoing slaughter of their children and families, I'm sure.

Hey, I'm new so sorry for no formal introduction, but something that you have blindly overlooked is the truth revealed in your own observations. There are many theoretical reasons the US is over there, but let me postulate one that hasn't been covered and is somewhat surprising considering us Americans are just a bunch of ignorant gun toting hillbillies By inserting ourselves directly into the heart of the middle east, and thoroughly pissing off militant Islamics, we have established two things: A free killing zone, and a steady stream of poor bastard terrorists marching to their death. You see, we couldn't just march into any country in the Middle East and selectively whack terrorists as we see fit. There's all those screwy international laws and whatnot that we'd have to worry about (believe it or not, our government really does try and respect those silly little agreements). But if the irrational extremists that gladly march into our country and kill thousands of our innocent civilians would like to come try there hand at whacking US service men and women in an open theatre of combat, let the fvckers. We'll be happy to cut them down and give them the glorious death they so desire.

As far as giving the $$ spent on troop support to the Iraqi people... I have to believe that you know better than to dump that kind of money into a volatile region without control of how it is spent. Unless you are saying spend the $$ on infrastructure improvements and supply distributions to the local peoples... But wait, just this week, the founder of a major humanitarian effort was kidnapped and assassinated. I guess we should probably spend some of that $$ we were going to give to the Iraqi people on life insurance for the people that will be distributing the aid. As many have said regarding the current situation. The die is cast. We must now do the best job we can of finishing what we started.

You come from the privilege of a free society where you can express your opinions, and you seem intelligent enough to acknowledge that those freedoms were earned and maintained through the sacrifice of life by soldiers and civilians alike. So it speaks ill of your level of sophistication when you make statements like you have about our troops. Granted they are not fighting on our home soil, nor against and enemy as overtly obvious as the Nazis, but you cannot deny that the Islamic extremists who are now dying in Falluja, are capable of committing terrorist attacks in places like America, Italy, Japan, and if so motivated, even good ol New Zealand. You have every right to your opinion, but you do nothing for your beliefs, your cause, or your country by making statements like you have regarding the lives of our soldiers. They have died in the past for the lives of foreign nationals and they deserve more respect than they have been given in this thread.

As for the "person" who made the statement about not giving a F*ck about the 10 soldiers who died, you are more than welcome to come to my place of work (email me and I'll gladly give you the address) and I will personally beat the living cr*p out of you before turning you over to the men and women of my company that have served to protect our nation.

Opinions are like azzholes and we typically don't like the smell of other people’s azzholes. But bear in mind when responding to a thread like this that there are people dying under the colors of our flag and believe it or not, only because they feel that they are serving their country the best way they know how. Say what you want about each other, but please show some respect for the men and women of our armed forces. If your an American, its the dedication of those individuals and the generations before them that allow you to spew your bile and ill-founded rhetoric, if your not, there's still a good chance that fate of your culture is better for the existence of the U.S. Military.

Chris

 

[Changleen]

Hi - Welcome to RideMonkey. Nice to see a decent and non-frothing post for a change.

By inserting ourselves directly into the heart of the middle east, and thoroughly pissing off militant Islamics, we have established two things: A free killing zone, and a steady stream of poor bastard terrorists marching to their death.

So is everyone who stands up to the US invasion of a sovereign state a terrorist by default? The problem I have with the 'terrorist' label that is thrown around so easily these days is that it obscures these people's real agendas.

As far as giving the $$ spent on troop support to the Iraqi people... I have to believe that you know better than to dump that kind of money into a volatile region without control of how it is spent. Unless you are saying spend the $$ on infrastructure improvements and supply distributions to the local peoples...

Which is why I advocated giving it to the Government.

As many have said regarding the current situation. The die is cast. We must now do the best job we can of finishing what we started.

Fair enough, but I think the way things are going right now you'd be better off walking away.

 

[dickiesbike1]

Changleen Go Here

 

[Changleen]

Changleen Go Here

Did mummy not teach you how to use the internet? awww, poor little idiot...

 

[dickiesbike1]

Did mummy not teach you how to use the internet? awww, poor little idiot...

Apparently yours didnt either.