[zmtber]

check this stuff out, all we need is a MTB compony to get their hand on this stuff. I have heard that freeride MX and skiers are already using this stuff (also the army), there is a huge market out there for this stuff:
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www4.army.mil/ocpa/uploads/large/Kevlar-STF2004-04-21.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www4.army.mil/ocpa/read.php?story_id_key=5872&h=454&w=576&sz=90&tbnid=hxKYGNHqdbW4VM:&tbnh=104&tbnw=132&hl=en&start=7&prev=/images?q=liquid+armor&svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=N

 

[zmtber]

here is more on this stuff:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/30/tech/main614961.shtml

 

[Secret Squirrel]

That's whacked about how it goes back to liquid form once the pressure is released...like you get up after a fall....all of a sudden...*ding* good as new....hmmmm...interesting...

 

[ncrider]

wow, so it sounds like they are using it as a coating over any kind of fabric. Hmm, interesting. Some crazy scientist is about to get very very rich.

 

[Transcend]

Great for body armour, but probably expensive as hell.

Not to mention probably much heavier then standard plastic and foam...too heavy for sports probably.

 

[Dr. Steth]

Hm. You have a point. Expensive, yes. Heavy, no, no way. "Light and flexible."
What's amazing is how it returns back to it's original form. Maybe some kind of "nano" tech stuff.
What about rim protection?

 

[zmtber]

Yeah there is like I said a huge market for this stuff, o yeah transcend supposedly free ride skiers and MX people have been testing this stuff as body armor so I don't think its going to be to heavy

 

[zmtber]

don't we use kevlar in our stuff already, and if it is as good as they say i wouldn't mind paying a little more especially if it returns to its normal state after every impact

 

[Transcend]

don't we use kevlar in our stuff already, and if it is as good as they say i wouldn't mind paying a little more especially if it returns to its normal state after every impact

Hav eyou ever held a bullet proof vest? It isn't a layer of kevlar like your shorts. Depending on the level of vest, it can be hundreds of layers of kevlar weighing 20-30lbs. The idea with this new stuff is to pre-preg the material with this liquid to cut down on layers. Great for saving weight on firearms body armor, it will still weigh much more then closed cell foam, lycra and plastic.

Sure, it'd be great to replace the hard shell plastic with it for longevity, but I am willing to bet it weighs alot more and costs a friggin' TON more when compared to injection molded plastic. Think probably 10 or 20 times more $, much more then "a little".

 

[zmtber]

come on if the army is going to be using it on pants to help them with "running" and jumping its not going to be that heavy

 

[Transcend]

come on if the army is going to be using it on pants to help them with "running" and jumping its not going to be that heavy

Seriously, have you ever held a bullet proof vest? It's not 1 or 2 layers.

This will save weight on that...NOT on injection molded plastic. Think a little.

This new tech stuff will cost much more then a standard issue vest.

Standard issue OTS vest (current us arsenal):

The latest advance in a mil-spec Tactical Vest for the US Army, and Marine Corps. Meets the performance specifications of the U.S. Army's Interceptor IBA

$ 1,139 Large
Weight: Size Large ~ 9 lbs

This is a level 2 vest (9mm FMJ)

 

[zmtber]

this stuff also reminds me about this stuff from dainese:
http://www.dainese.com/eng/d-air.asp

 

[zmtber]

yes i know but its not going to be a used on vest its going to be used on pants, they didn't say anything else, and why wouldn't you be able to use less of this stuff, we won't be stoping bullets either. so less of this stuff that hardens up to be stronger then the "plastic molds", and it well be more flexible then plastic when its not rigid

 

[Transcend]

yes i know but its not going to be a used on vest its going to be used on pants, they didn't say anything else, and why wouldn't you be able to use less of this stuff, we won't be stoping bullets either. so less of this stuff that hardens up to be stronger then the "plastic molds", and it well be more flexible then plastic when its not rigid

Ok again, last time. Pay attention.

It will cost MUCH more.
It will weigh MUCH more then injection molded plastic.

You have to use a certain amount of it will be brittle. 1 layer of kevlar does nothing special except be slightly more rip resistant then other materials.

also, read the articles you posted. Yes, they plan on using it in vests if it passes trials.

"In addition to saving Soldiers' lives, Wetzel said liquid armor in Kevlar vests could help those who work in law enforcement.

“Prison guards and police officers could also benefit from this technology,” said Wetzel. “Liquid armor is much more stab resistant than conventional body armor. This capability is especially important for prison guards, who are most often attacked with handmade sharp weapons.” "

 

[zmtber]

okay i know this is going to be the only thing to make you happy so, you are right.

 

[zedro]

aaacckkk!!!! stop saying "stuff" :mumble:


i'm wondering about that alu-backed non-compressible foam this guy developped initially for football equipment. It was a flexible 5-10mm membrane that could take a bat to it. The kicker is it was developed to reduce overheating.

 

[AusRottenVirus]

I'm gonna side with Transcend on this one. I'm not to sure about the weight of the new stuff, but I have held a bullit proof vest and it is way to heavy for sports. I would be curious to see how much the new vests weigh. Also, I am sure it would be too expensive to use for mass production body armor. But pretty cool none the less.

 

[Transcend]

aaacckkk!!!! stop saying "stuff" :mumble:


i'm wondering about that alu-backed non-compressible foam this guy developped initially for football equipment. It was a flexible 5-10mm membrane that could take a bat to it. The kicker is it was developed to reduce overheating.

Saw a special on that recently (I watch WAY too much Discovery network). If i remember right, Adams is testing it now.

Also, santa barbara needs reading comprehension courses.

 

[mandown]

Ok again, last time. Pay attention.

It will cost MUCH more.
It will weigh MUCH more then injection molded plastic.

You have to use a certain amount of it will be brittle. 1 layer of kevlar does nothing special except be slightly more rip resistant then other materials.

also, read the articles you posted. Yes, they plan on using it in vests if it passes trials.

"In addition to saving Soldiers' lives, Wetzel said liquid armor in Kevlar vests could help those who work in law enforcement.

“Prison guards and police officers could also benefit from this technology,” said Wetzel. “Liquid armor is much more stab resistant than conventional body armor. This capability is especially important for prison guards, who are most often attacked with handmade sharp weapons.” "

there may be a middle ground. it may not replace dh armor, however a few layers may toughen up some neoprene elbow and knee wraps. one of the articles mentioned that it will not be used as a complete body armor replacement, but more to augment the protection in flex zones like the elbow and knee. this would make a nice light ride armor with some flex to it. not knowing the density of the new stuff or the number of layers needed, it is hard to speculate how much you would need for varying layers of protection.

yes it will cost a ton... at first. the more people who use it, the cheaper it will get. economies of scale, my friend.

 

[Transcend]

there may be a middle ground. it may not replace dh armor, however a few layers may toughen up some neoprene elbow and knee wraps. one of the articles mentioned that it will not be used as a complete body armor replacement, but more to augment the protection in flex zones like the elbow and knee. this would make a nice light ride armor with some flex to it. not knowing the density of the new stuff or the number of layers needed, it is hard to speculate how much you would need for varying layers of protection.

yes it will cost a ton... at first. the more people who use it, the cheaper it will get. economies of scale, my friend.

Granted, but it will never replace standard armor (in either case), and if you use too little it will probably not last too long.

Also, the price of standard kevlar is STILL through the roof and it is used in alot of stuff...I couldn't bet on this coming down in price anytime in the next few years (if it even makes production).

 

[zedro]

Also, the price of standard kevlar is STILL through the roof and it is used in alot of stuff...I couldn't bet on this coming down in price anytime in the next few years (if it even makes production).

the thing is material costs generally dont come down, but rather will go up the more it's used. The manufacturing end can come down, but it'll always be the supply and demand paradox.

 

[Transcend]

the thing is material costs generally dont come down, but rather will go up the more it's used. The manufacturing end can come down, but it'll always be the supply and demand paradox.

That's a good point I didn't think of. Raw materials go up, retail goods come down. Very good point actually.

 

[LukeD]

so then what would this be made out of? http://www.progoaliemask.com/vaporinfo.html kevlar is a brand name by dupont, there are materials out there lighter that can do the same job. i'm not arguing, saying that a vest is light, because every one i've held is not...but surely there must be lighter material which is in use and can be used. btw, one of those masks is indeed bulletproof and much lighter than a kevlar one. the interesting thing about all this is...it isn't going to stop bones from breaking. it will stop the puncture but won't stop a break. people still get broken ribs and get hurt seriously from getting hit by a bulllet wearing a vest. it is life saving but it doesn't mean you won't get hurt.

 

[Nately27]

kinda like the "tin man" armor. did anyone read that book by dale brown?

 

[degoose]

my dad owns Velo Pro.....

 

[IronJim]

Hav eyou ever held a bullet proof vest? It isn't a layer of kevlar like your shorts. Depending on the level of vest, it can be hundreds of layers of kevlar weighing 20-30lbs.

my dads a cop and he had to buy a new vest a couple years ago and the thing weights 5 pounds tops. his old one however probley weighed a little over 10 pounds but nothing eveb near 20-30 pounds

 

[Transcend]

my dads a cop and he had to buy a new vest a couple years ago and the thing weights 5 pounds tops. his old one however probley weighed a little over 10 pounds but nothing eveb near 20-30 pounds

Ya, I was thinking flak jacket. Also, your dad's vest was probably class 2 at best and not class 3 or 3b.

The OTS vest was 9 lbs without chicken plates and is only class 2.

 

[zmtber]

so then what would this be made out of? http://www.progoaliemask.com/vaporinfo.html kevlar is a brand name by dupont, there are materials out there lighter that can do the same job. i'm not arguing, saying that a vest is light, because every one i've held is not...but surely there must be lighter material which is in use and can be used. btw, one of those masks is indeed bulletproof and much lighter than a kevlar one. the interesting thing about all this is...it isn't going to stop bones from breaking. it will stop the puncture but won't stop a break. people still get broken ribs and get hurt seriously from getting hit by a bulllet wearing a vest. it is life saving but it doesn't mean you won't get hurt.

so why do people where the pads then if they don't stop braking of bones?

 

[Zutroy]

The "stuff" is very cool, very expensive at the moment. It's not as good as the current hard body armour in use, but it's better than nothing.

It's not very good for sports usage as it's designed to handle a high energy small are impact...ie a projectile.

FYI
The current Interceptor armor weighs in at 16.5 with the front and back ESAPI plates. The deltoid expansion which covers the upper arms tacks on about another 5, the groin another 2 or so. The vest are going to get heavier as they are currently adding more plate material under the arms to protect the side of the torso.

The stuff works pretty damn well if you take a hit to the ESAPI plate, it should stop a 7.62mm round(.30 cal for you old schoolers).

 

[gemini2k]

so why do people where the pads then if they don't stop braking of bones?

You want some pictures of pucture wounds on my skin? A few stiches here a few stiches there. Plus, ever heard of a femeral artery (spelling?)? You puncture that on a mountain, you DIE.

 

[Zutroy]

so why do people where the pads then if they don't stop braking of bones?

Cause some broken bones are better than dead, or missing part of you.

 

[Transcend]

The "stuff" is very cool, very expensive at the moment. It's not as good as the current hard body armour in use, but it's better than nothing.

It's not very good for sports usage as it's designed to handle a high energy small are impact...ie a projectile.

FYI
The current Interceptor armor weighs in at 16.5 with the front and back ESAPI plates. The deltoid expansion which covers the upper arms tacks on about another 5, the groin another 2 or so. The vest are going to get heavier as they are currently adding more plate material under the arms to protect the side of the torso.

The stuff works pretty damn well if you take a hit to the ESAPI plate, it should stop a 7.62mm round(.30 cal for you old schoolers).

Well there you have it. I was about 3-4 pounds off with a full vest system. Thanks for the numbers.

 

[Zutroy]

Well there you have it. I was about 3-4 pounds off with a full vest system. Thanks for the numbers.

Yeah pretty close,I'm almost afraid to ask why ya have so much into on body armor floating in your head.....:love:

Anyway, they keep taking weight on and beefing up the plates as they are getting way to much real world testing on them these days.

There is some really "cool" stuff in the works as far as military body armor goes.

 

[Transcend]

Yeah pretty close,I'm almost afraid to ask why ya have so much into on body armor floating in your head.....:love:

Anyway, they keep taking weight on and beefing up the plates as they are getting way to much real world testing on them these days.

There is some really "cool" stuff in the works as far as military body armor goes.

Don't ask.

Heavy is indeed the word of the day. Nothing but chicken plates will stop 7.62 and larger for the most part.

 

[Zutroy]

Don't ask.

Heavy is indeed the word of the day. Nothing but chicken plates will stop 7.62 and larger for the most part.

Yeah the OTV is only rated to up to a 9mm round. It's also not doing very well against the fragments from the IEDs. Alot of guys are ditching the deltoid add ons cause ya can't shoot worth sh$t with them on.

Plus the plates are hard to get, there is a shortage of the ceramics and the spectra shield for the backing on them.

 

[heikkihall]

Does anyne know anything about the new d3o technology? From the little that I know about it, it may be worth looking into as far as body armor for downhill. Heres a short article I found on it. The US and Canadian Ski Teams are both using it in their speed suits this year rather than the bulkly padding that was previously offered.

d3o Create Intelligent Material for Use in Protective Clothing
A new material which is set to revolutionise the way we protect our bodies from impact and injury is being launched by specialist technology company d3o Lab.

d3o Lab were granted a government SMART award in 2001 and following a significant breakthrough they secured a second award in 2003 for the development which is now nearing commercialisation.

Since 2000 Richard Palmer and Dr. Phil Green have been working out of the University of Hertfordshire’s research and development centre, and a design studio in London on this exciting new technology.

The inspiration for d3o (dee-three-oh) first came when materials scientist Dr Phil Green found himself sitting off the piste in the Alps in 1999, nursing a bruised elbow after a snowboarding accident.

“It occurred to me that all the available impact protection systems work on a macro scale, and because of this they are restrictive, uncomfortable and actually pretty ineffective. I knew if I could get a system to work at a molecular level we could have an amazing product. Five years of research later we do - d3o,” said Phil, who is Technical Director at d3o Lab.

d3o, is a unique material made of intelligent molecules. They flow with you when you move but on shock lock together to protect you, returning to their original state when the impact is over.

Dr Green explains, “The molecules simply flow past each other at low rates of movement when you are moving your body naturally, but when they are subject to an impact that requires the molecules to move very quickly they instantaneously lock together by linking with each other to form a protective barrier. As soon as the impact has passed they immediately unlock to provide flow and normal flexibility. This all happens in less than a 1000th of a second, and the faster they are impacted the more quickly they react: true intelligence!”

The story of one of the most well-known step change technologies in the sports market, Gore-Tex, has many similarities with d3o. Before Gore-Tex? You had to compromise your comfort for the sake of keeping dry. d3o works in the same way, allowing you to have protection that doesn’t compromise your freedom of movement revolutionary. While the protection equipment currently on the market is bulky and unsightly, d3o can be integrated directly into clothing and is light, breathable, washable, flexible, allowing total freedom of movement.

d3o Lab’s Managing Director, Richard Palmer, said: “Sometimes it’s hard to convince people what a truly amazing innovation this is until you demonstrate it. I was wearing a prototype shirt incorporating d3o, and at one point I stood up and slammed my elbow onto the table as hard as I could, sending coffee cups flying. Once they saw me doing that - without flinching - they understood what I was saying.”

 

[profro]

Sounds like a nonnewtonian fluid. Meaning as you move through the fluid there is a shear-thickening effect related to the velocity.

However if the term "nano" and anything related to the government (Army) are used together, you can expect a high price tag.

I don't see much use in DH.

 

[Transcend]

Some American and Canadian skiers competing in the Olympics have a secret weapon: a flexible form of "body armor" that's molded to the shape of their bodies and hardens on impact. The material, known as d3o, and developed by scientists working with skiwear maker Spyder, contains a proprietary polymer that has "strain rate flexibility." While normally flexible, sudden impact hardens the molecules of the material, making it as protective as the traditional arm and leg guards worn in slalom runs. The developers envision expanding d30's uses to other purposes, including protection for military and police personnel. Unfortunately, they don't seem to have any plans for a material that can protect Bode Miller from himself.

 

[Zutroy]

Spyder is going to release it to the public this fall...suppose to be $800-900 for the suit, with all the bells and whistles.

 

[Transcend]

Basically it is only good right now for replacing the shin and forearm guards that they normally wear. It isn't really body armor, as such.