[Toshi]

some initial reading to see where i'm coming from:

Diameter: Ruffian vs Lizard Skin Logo grips
Eliminating arm pump:

Smaller grip diameter also helps as it lets yoru grip close up more. So Oury lovers might want to switch if they have arm pump.....Ruffians are nice low profile grips....I like my Intense grips also.

my ride pics thread:

whistler was all that and a bag of chips (maui sweet onion) btw. no serious injuries to speak of in our group, no major mechanicals. the only downer is that my fingers really hurt, worse this time than on the previous trips this summer... there may be something wrong with my joints, related to my being "double jointed"/overly flexible...

my story: i don't get arm pump, at least as i understand it. even after a full day at whistler, my forearms and muscles used to brake are fine. one finger braking technique + grippy hayes + grc levers + tight, well-fitted gloves as mental recommended in the last page of "Eliminating arm pump" are the key for me.

however, i have been experiencing severe finger pain from riding dh. it has become progressively worse over the season, and successive days riding also worsens it. time away from the bike causes it to go away. the pain is limited to the distal (nearer to fingernail than knuckle) joint of my middle, ring, pinky fingers and only happens when the joints are bent, as when gripping the bars.

the grip issue: i consulted with my regular doc and an orthopedic surgeon i'm seeing for other issues (joint laxity in shoulders if you're curious). what both of them said is that lessening the angle of the joint while riding will probably make things better. in other words, they recommend using larger grips. given that i have been running really small grips for the last three years or so, ruffians and intense lock-ons, this won't be hard to do.

my questions: given this info i am now searching for the largest grips out there, ideally in lock-on guise. so what are the largest ones, in terms of diameter? the rogue and the oury models seem to be the leading contenders, but i couldn't find any hard data on them.

also, how does this advice jive with the conventional wisdom on arm pump? are there two separate entities, arm pump and finger pain? if so, is arm pump eased by smaller grips, while finger pain eased by larger grips? how do you find a balance if your problem isn't as one-sided as mine (no arm pump, lots of finger pain)?

tia for your responses.

odi rogues:

oury lock-ons:

 

[chicodude]

[



however, i have been experiencing severe finger pain from riding dh. it has become progressively worse over the season, and successive days riding also worsens it. time away from the bike causes it to go away. the pain is limited to the distal (nearer to fingernail than knuckle) joint of my middle, ring, pinky fingers and only happens when the joints are bent, as when gripping the bars.

Dude, I know exactly what you mean I have the same issue.........I thought it was just me, But after a day at northstar i couldn't stand it anymore and i had to quit early

 

[Toshi]

Dude, I know exactly what you mean I have the same issue.........I thought it was just me, But after a day at northstar i couldn't stand it anymore and i had to quit early

what have you done to make it better, besides not riding? have you tried switching to larger or smaller grips? what size grips do you currently run? (as i posted above my mountain bikes all have really small-diameter grips, ruffians or intense lock-ons on them.)

 

[chicodude]

I currently run ruffians also, but I may change that in the near future. The only thing I have tried was some padded gloves I used for football, but they didn't help. i wrapped my grips in padding (guaze? sp?) for my last few runs, and It didn't help at all, but it could be my hands were too messed up from the previous runs, so I can't really say

 

[Toshi]

does your pain on riding days get better when you straighten out your fingers? if so, then it seems pretty clear that larger grips should help, altho i'm not positive by any means that the difference between ruffians and rogues will be great enough to really effect the pain.

 

[chicodude]

I think its more the pressure that does it to me, But when I let go is when it hurts the most it seems, when I strightend (sp?) my fingers out, the pain sunsides, but it's still most definatly there. Maybe Santa will get me some bigger grips......

 

[zedro]

....what both of them said is that lessening the angle of the joint while riding will probably make things better. in other words, they recommend using larger grips.

i think their logic is a bit flawed though; for biking, you have to pull up on the bars, not just gently rest them in a single position. Now imagine trying to pull up with 3" diameter bars; your fingers are at a mechanical dissadvantage so your fingers need more pressure to stay aboard.

Obviously theres a perfect fit scenario; not too big to stress your hands/fingers, not too small too strain them.

Ourys did nasty things to my finger joints, Intense grips seem to be right, and Ruffians too small.

 

[Toshi]

hmm, your assumption seems to be that pressure is the dominant factor, not angle of the joints. my assertion is that angle is key in finger pain, since i can duplicate the pain immediately after riding by clenching my fists -- it doesn't require that i grip something very tightly, and indeed i typically try not to ride with a death grip. of course, with ridiculously large grips physically hanging on might be a problem like you say, but ourys/rogues aren't _that_ big, no?

anyway, keep the comments coming and please vote on what grips are the largest

 

[zedro]

well i believe in the moderate reasoning (yeah i know, dirty word in the US), so i dont think theres necessarily a dominant factor. I have bad circulation so my fingers cant be clentched too much, but too much pressure doesnt help that either. So i need to find the balance.

The doctors response is meaningless IMO because obviously there is a limit to the diameter a grip can be to be usefull. Now who says Oury just happened to create that limit? maybe they went too far, or maybe not far enough? The doctors recommendation is limited to the largest grip manufactured, which could be mearly an arbitrary size that some monster-handed designer had.

 

[Toshi]

i would like to find out what is the largest grip manufactured in any case. whether it is large enough, too large, or not even close will have to be verified experimentally on the trail

 

[zedro]

i would like to find out what is the largest grip manufactured in any case. whether it is large enough, too large, or not even close will have to be verified experimentally on the trail

ok...remember those insanely large grips that used to come on cheapo BMX bikes? they even had finger grooves

 

[Lumpy_Gravy]

I get finger joint pain after a few days in morzine, and I too thought I was the only one.

One day after a run my joints were really painful and I straightened/ stretched my hand out really quickly thinking it might relieve the pain.... bad idea.

 

[TheInedibleHulk]

This is what a set of calipers is for.

 

[Acadian]

Ourys did nasty things to my finger joints, Intense grips seem to be right, and Ruffians too small.

I could of sworn the Intense grips were smaller than the Ruffians last time I checked?

 

[ChrisRobin]

I could of sworn the Intense grips were smaller than the Ruffians last time I checked?

They are...slightly. I think there's less material on the Intense grips (except where Intense is written) compared to the Ruffians. All I know is I have small hands and Ruffian grips make my hands feel like they're on fire while Intense grips are nice and comfy.

 

[Toshi]

This is what a set of calipers is for.

it would be nice to have the grips in question handy along with calipers, yes. but this is not the case, and i'm also interested if any other freakishly large grips exist, other than the ones from zedro's childhood bmx bike.

 

[KaiMana]

My experience:

Last season I went to vail by myself one day and hooked up with some local rippers who showed me all the sweetness. The problem was they were in great dh shape and I wasn't arm and finger wise. I stuck with them for 10 runs (all day, 6hrs)without stopping top to bottom. They last few runs I knew my hands were in bad shape, but I could still ride. Anyway, it ruined my hands for the rest of the season, I had intense finger and joint pain every time I went to the resorts after as litlle as 2 runs.

This season I made a point of not going all out all day at the resorts and my fingers have been much better.

BTW I tried lots off grip diameters and the pain did not diminish, but I think mine was bone bruise/tendon injury.

 

[Zark]

Hand exercizes might help. Play with one of those "stress balls" when hanging out watching tv. Large diameter grips fatigued my hands more than thinner grips in my experience. All day shuttle runs are just murder on your hands, its hard to avoid.

 

[joelsman]

i have rogue 's and they are as big as i would ever go, and I have a large size glove hand. sometimes I want them slightly smaller.

go to a bike shop and open the packages and grip the grips, lock-on grips only, bring your gloves, see whitch you like best. odi grips I think come in recloseable packages.

 

[Transcend]

Go with the oury lockons. They also help damp vibrations, which will help reduce fatigue.

 

[heikkihall]

Oury lock ons are awesome. Many people have told me that they think that smaller grips reduce arm fatigue but coincidentally those are the people that complain about arm pump the most. Ive found the exact opposite to be true. I never get arm pump and I use Ourys almost exclusivly now (which are generally considered a large grip).

 

[oly]

Dang, I just got 2 new sets of Rouges... maybe i should have picked up those Oury.

Since going to ODI ive always liked the Rouge... never liked the ruffians on friends bikes. I get both arm pump , and finger pain.... but like foot pain snowboarding i just deal with it..... Curious to see your findings toshi....

 

[OGRipper]

I'll share my experience, but I pretty much agree with Zedro here.

I've got big hands (can palm a basketball) and have used Ruffians for a couple years at least now. Went to Whistler this year and after a couple days was getting really bad arm pump, so at someone's advice I slapped on a pair of Rogues, which as you know have a bigger diameter. The result was MORE arm pump and what I perceived as finger pain, something I never had before, so after one day I switched back to the Ruffians and they felt a lot better. Basically, being able to get more of my hand around the grip really seems to help me.

Also, one thing that really helps me it to adjust my brake lever reach to that the lever is as close to the bar as possible (without bottoming out on my other fingers). (I brake with one finger only.) This is consitent with what I said above about being able to get as much of my hand around the grip as possible. For me, more extension = more pain.

I'm not sure it's been mentioned yet but another thing to consider is that the larger diamer grips are often softer. I tend to hold on tighter when riding with really squishy grips, which also results in more strain.

Maybe what you need is a larger diamer grip that is as hard as something with a lower profile.

And Zedro, here's something from the useless information department: I think you're talking about the Oakley 3, the wacky BMX grip from the early 80's with flares on each end, fins on the palm side, and finger grooves in front. They were one of Oakley's first big sellers and at first came aftermarket or only on full pimp rides, not el cheapo. They were also made from Unobtanium, which I think they still use in sunglasses. I can barely remember what I did yesterday but I have a vivid memory of my chrome Kuwahara BMX (before the ET movie), with Oakley 3s, haro two-finger brake levers, dia compe brakes, bottema fork...and Z rims!! Scary...that's like 20 years ago...but after all I am OG.

 

[-BB-]

I don't get arm pump, but I have been getting pain right where my right ring finger meets the palm (1st joint). It is like I bruised my bone or something.

I've been using the Ruffian grips:

Maybe I need one with more padding.

 

[YETI187]

i wear xxl gloves and i like the salsa lock-on grips. http://www.salsacycles.com/comps_grips.html they're like a slightly thicker ruffians with grippy raised salsa pepper logos.your lbs can order them through qbp. i've used reg oury's which i liked, ruffians which where pretty good, salsa pepperjacks which are a harder grip and don't really like much, the JUEGOS DE FUEGOS are by the far the best grip i've tried so far.

 

[James | Go-Ride]

I think your doc was referring to the angle at the wrist, not the angle at the fingers. I know a lot of moto guys, when doing arm pump reduction features in magazines, always point out how key it is to keep your forearm/wrist joint totally straight to try and keep pump down.

As I understand it, the key thing with grip size is to get one that fits the natural curvature and size of your hand. I've got a pretty big set of gropers myself, usually wear an XL or an XXL glove. I've been running Ruffians since they lock ons came out in '98 or '99 or whatever. The normal Ruffians were actually too small for me, I ran Yeti hardcores back in the dizzle, but the Lock-On version is perfect for me.

 

[buildyourown]

I don't get pump but I do get finger pain or the inability to release the bar. We call it the "Kokanee Claw" cause I've only ever gotten it at whistler and icing with a cold one helps. I never got it until this year. I ride a lot less than I used to during the week and I think that is part of the problem. Brake lever reach made a huge difference. When my razor rocks broke I had to run them all the way out and it was killing me.

So, my advice. Try some hand strength exercises. Try different levers like the ones form GRC. Play with lever reach.

 

[ioscope]

I have ouries and my bud has rogues. I will check tomorrow afternoon with a fabric tape and repost here

 

[mr.terrible]

Here is a short article about arm pump in MX. Yeah yeah it is about MX but still an interesting read though. http://www.mxfitness.co.uk/arm pump.htm

 

[Toshi]

I think your doc was referring to the angle at the wrist, not the angle at the fingers. I know a lot of moto guys, when doing arm pump reduction features in magazines, always point out how key it is to keep your forearm/wrist joint totally straight to try and keep pump down.

no, it was explicitly about reducing the angle in the affected joint, which is the one closest to the fingernail. besides, i don't get arm pump, only this joint pain...

more info: i wear L gloves, run my brakes in all the way (and experience no pain in my index finger, which i use for braking), and already have the lovely grc levers.

I have ouries and my bud has rogues. I will check tomorrow afternoon with a fabric tape and repost here

thanks!

 

[toodles]

I like the Intense and RaceFace lock-ons (both manufactured by ODI). While the diameter is fairly similar to the Ruffians, they have a nice bulge across the middle of the grip which sits in the palm of your hand and gives a bigger diameter for the longer middle finger as well as a smaller end for your pinky.

 

[SuspectDevice]

I think you pain is more likely related to wrist and hand angle. I find that most peoples hand and wrist pain is a result of either poor setup, or poor technique, and i'm going to give you the benefit of a doubt on the technique front...

Can you post a straight on and side perspective of your front end on level ground?

 

[punkassean]

Toshi,

you know how much this issue affected me at Whistler this summer. My f-ing hands (fingers more specifically) were killing me the whole time. This was a new experience for me and even as recently as last year at Whistler under the same circumstances I didn't get any pain at all. I usually run Ruffians but you might recall that I tried everything from Rogues to the S&M's (which I still use on my XC bike because of their length) this thread got me thinking and the year before last at Whistler I was running the Bontrager lock-on which is slightly larger Ø than the Ruffian, what might make it better is that (like the Salsa grip) it has a larger Ø in the middle so it's got better ergonomics. I was having problems with my brake levers too and I have used both the short and long GRC's as well as standard Hayes, all with little effect. I really think brakes like Shimano, Avid or the new Hayes El Camino with a better "Q-Factor" would help a lot.

My theory with finger pain is that it obviously occurs more when you are riding extended DH runs and especially if the runs are rocky/bumpy. In these situations whether you want to or not, a death-grip is pretty much necessary to maintain control of both speed and direction. The one or two fingers on the brakes are in such a different position than the two outside fingers that are trying to grip the bars and that is a really non-organic position. If you place your hands roughly in the position of holding on the bars while braking, hold that position and flip your hand over and look at your palm, you'll notice that the seemingly ideal shape for the ends of the handlebars would be curved, not just swept a few degrees (think SRAM smart bar).

It took a few months for my knuckles to stop aching but finally they are good again. I have not been riding very much though so I know that has helped them heal. I would suggest trying grips like the Bontrager or Salsas before going extreme, I know my knuckles hurt much more with rogues in fact the day I put Rogues on was the day I went and bought Ruffian MX's (Ruffian with waffle pattern on one portion) because I couldn't stand the pain.

Good luck, keep us posted on your findings.

Bontrager (non-lock pictured but also available in lock-on)

S&M locks (~15mm longer than normal and the ribs prevent blisters)

 

[Toshi]

I think you pain is more likely related to wrist and hand angle. I find that most peoples hand and wrist pain is a result of either poor setup, or poor technique, and i'm going to give you the benefit of a doubt on the technique front...

Can you post a straight on and side perspective of your front end on level ground?

what would poor technique be, as relates to finger pain and/or forearm pump?

not quite a frontal view, but shows that indeed run my brakes right up against the bars, and shifted inward for maximum leverage. once again, it's not my braking finger that hurts.

here is a side shot of my canfield, which unfortunately shows nothing due to the perspective distortion of a 12mm lens . if you go back to the first shot it looks, to me at least, like my wrist is pretty straight/neutral. not doing anything too weird there.

 

[zedro]

i think you have poor back posture while riding :nuts:

 

[dump]

I used to play tennis... I would constantly put on overgrips on top of the previous overgrips until i had 3 or 4 grips on the same handle.

One day coach grabbed my racquet & scolded me because of the size of my grip.

The following day I took off all the grips so that there was only the base level. I noticed that I had to use less effort to hold onto the racquet & experienced zero pain extended playing. (The pain was very similar to the "arm pump" pain felt during biking.)

for what it's worth.

 

[Toshi]

the year before last at Whistler I was running the Bontrager lock-on which is slightly larger Ø than the Ruffian, what might make it better is that (like the Salsa grip) it has a larger Ø in the middle so it's got better ergonomics.

...

I would suggest trying grips like the Bontrager or Salsas before going extreme, I know my knuckles hurt much more with rogues

good point about the different grip shapes. i remember one from about 1995? or so where it swelled noticeably in the middle, and was also kind of oval shaped. i wonder if that company is still around, and if they make a lock-on version... i still want to find a 3" diameter grip just to try out, heh

 

[dromond]

I used to get a bit of arm pump. Things that seem to have cleared it up for me:

-Get my brake levers angled correctly. (Obviously that's different for everyone, depending on height, riding position, etc. For me I had to angle them up a little more than usual.)
-brakign with only one finger
-keeping my levers adjusted close to the bar.
-Consciously braking less and keeping my grip on the bars from getting too tight.

 

[Shmoe]

I had tons of pain a few seasons ago when I had an 01 monster on my ride and used oury grips. I could only ride for about 5 minutes until I had to stop. After I put a 02 shiver on, its was completley gone.. Ive came to think that the suspension set-up it critical..

For whats its worth, I now use Ruffians on my dh bike all the time. I have huge hands (Cant find many gloves that fit.. if any) and dont have to many problems.

 

[Toshi]

I had tons of pain a few seasons ago when I had an 01 monster on my ride and used oury grips. I could only ride for about 5 minutes until I had to stop. After I put a 02 shiver on, its was completley gone.. Ive came to think that the suspension set-up it critical..

For whats its worth, I now use Ruffians on my dh bike all the time. I have huge hands (Cant find many gloves that fit.. if any) and dont have to many problems.

was your pain arm pump, finger pain, hand pain, or something else? also, how similar were/are the suspension setups on your monster and shiver? were you running heavier springs or oil in the monster?