[kidwoo]

I'm available for consulting work

Trails need to go somewhere, or there are bad consequences

https://cyclingmagazine.ca/sections/news/cycling-played-a-huge-part-in-reducing-inbreeding/

(thanks rideit)

 

[johnbryanpeters]

This isn't removing chunk, it's establishing a trail corridor. I'd likely agree with you on pulling rocks but it depends on the section.

It would be one thing if routing trails like that were simply another variety.........and weren't a widespread epidemic. In the US, hiking trails are better than MTB specific trails because they actually go somewhere while the MTB shit just throws as many dumb tight curves in as possible. Not even hikers follow that shit.

It's about trail longevity and where the thing is going to end up anyway.

Instead you're going to have people braking hard right there chewing up the dirt, in a corner no less, hitting the tree anyway (IE probably not that safe for beginners), and pushing the trail out wider so people can lean without decapitating themselves. It's going to change regardless.

I respect the hell out of people who do work but 20 seconds of forethought goes a long way. And quite frankly I've been doing this stuff (trailbuilding, not riding) for far too many decades to listen to after the fact explanations from trailbuilders who put more thought into defending a thoughtless decision than they do routing a trail.

People act like a strip of cleared dirt being moved over 3 feet is some kind of personal affront. It's gonna end up there anyway for a reason. But you JUST saw what usually happens: people assume it's because people can't ride it when that has nothing to do with it. There's a potentially really fun right turn there but not at the 2mph you're going to hit it after the bar grabber turn. The mental gymnastics that go into defending poor decisions is incredible. I just wish that much thought went into thing BEFORE the dirt starts getting moved. It's really not that hard.

I'm pretty much crippled these days with what hundreds of thousands of hours of building trails has done to my back. It's not a theoretical topic with me. While you may say there's no ideal way to route a trail, all I'm asking is that people at least try for good. And decapitators on the insides of what is supposed to be a bike trail is not that.

"I take whatever is handed to me and try to improve nothing" isn't exactly my deal

If I wish to alter a trail I find the builder and ask.

I agree with you that proper trail design and sustainability is important.

 

[iRider]

I'm available for consulting work

View attachment 171493



Trails need to go somewhere, or there are bad consequences

https://cyclingmagazine.ca/sections/news/cycling-played-a-huge-part-in-reducing-inbreeding/

(thanks rideit)

Not sure if needed, but if you ever make it over here you are welcome to help dig.

 

[StiHacka]

Trails need to go somewhere, or there are bad consequences

That's not how any trails in New England work. Can't hear you that well down here btw., your horse is really high.

 

[kidwoo]

That's why trails in New England suck.

Agreed


"I take whatever is handed to me and try to improve nothing"

 

[Sandwich]

Agreed


"I take whatever is handed to me and try to improve nothing"

There is no try, not in NIMBY world. There have been plenty of studies showing that bikes do not do more damage than hikers, but that doesn't stop the SVT from banning bikes on all their trails. So we have 2 acres of land to build on, and it's hard to fit 6 miles of trails on a tortilla chip

but yeah NE trails suck

 

[kidwoo]

There is no try, not in NIMBY world. There have been plenty of studies showing that bikes do not do more damage than hikers, but that doesn't stop the SVT from banning bikes on all their trails. So we have 2 acres of land to build on, and it's hard to fit 6 miles of trails on a tortilla chip

but yeah NE trails suck

whats the time?

killdozer:30

But everybody tells me vermont is just so oudoorsy!


Mammoth lakes in CA is the same way. They love to paint themselves as some kind of outdoor playground. They have 2 legal bike trails.

2

You can ride them both in about 3 hours and theyre on opposite sides of town. All hail the wilderness nuts. They create a great product.

 

[rideit]

But but but….KAMIKAZEEE!

 

[jstuhlman]

don't even ask me how i feel about all the trail groups "getting involved and helping" in the remote part of pisgah i (used to) love...their excuse for dumbing it all down is "we're helping the trout and keeping it sustainable so it doesn't get shut down." sure. but half the trails were always not legit anyway, and it's all getting "flowed" and "fixed" and it sucks. and if no one got involved nothing would have gotten "decommissioned" which is what we get told because there's literally one ranger for the entire district and no one who would "decommission" anything because it's all hiking trails no one but biker really uses anyway. /endoldmanyellingatcloudrant

 

[Westy]

don't even ask me how i feel about all the trail groups "getting involved and helping" in the remote part of pisgah i (used to) love...their excuse for dumbing it all down is "we're helping the trout and keeping it sustainable so it doesn't get shut down." sure. but half the trails were always not legit anyway, and it's all getting "flowed" and "fixed" and it sucks. and if no one got involved nothing would have gotten "decommissioned" which is what we get told because there's literally one ranger for the entire district and no one who would "decommission" anything because it's all hiking trails no one but biker really uses anyway. /endoldmanyellingatcloudrant

The only sustainable trail is one worn down to rock. Adding smooth dirt on top of rock is attempting to sustain the unsustainable.

 

[kidwoo]

I just laugh my ass off at all the erosion whining. The wildernuts love erosion! They lobby congress to designate the worst cases as wild and scenic rivers.

None of them seem capable of noticing pooling or ground cover 10ft away that completely negate transport.

 

[kidwoo]

Adding smooth dirt on top of rock is job security for mtb nonprofits

true

 

[rideit]

Butbutbut KAMIKAZEE!!!

 

[Sandwich]

whats the time?

killdozer:30

But everybody tells me vermont is just so oudoorsy!


Mammoth lakes in CA is the same way. They love to paint themselves as some kind of outdoor playground. They have 2 legal bike trails.

2

You can ride them both in about 3 hours and theyre on opposite sides of town. All hail the wilderness nuts. They create a great product.

It's just a bummer....there's a ton of little parks around here that you could link up to make a massive 20 mile loop. In fact, there's a 36 mile hiking trail that connects some of them and allows biking on like 80% of it...except for the town I live in. It's ridiculous, and I hope to put some effort in to changing it, but I just don't have time to commit right now. This should be a settled debate but it rages on...

 

[boogenman]

We have legal trails here. Our problem is that the trails suck.

 

[jonKranked]

This isn't removing chunk, it's establishing a trail corridor. I'd likely agree with you on pulling rocks but it depends on the section.

It would be one thing if routing trails like that were simply another variety.........and weren't a widespread epidemic. In the US, hiking trails are better than MTB specific trails because they actually go somewhere while the MTB shit just throws as many dumb tight curves in as possible. Not even hikers follow that shit.

It's about trail longevity and where the thing is going to end up anyway.

Instead you're going to have people braking hard right there chewing up the dirt, in a corner no less, hitting the tree anyway (IE probably not that safe for beginners), and pushing the trail out wider so people can lean without decapitating themselves. It's going to change regardless.

I respect the hell out of people who do work but 20 seconds of forethought goes a long way. And quite frankly I've been doing this stuff (trailbuilding, not riding) for far too many decades to listen to after the fact explanations from trailbuilders who put more thought into defending a thoughtless decision than they do routing a trail.

People act like a strip of cleared dirt being moved over 3 feet is some kind of personal affront. It's gonna end up there anyway for a reason. But you JUST saw what usually happens: people assume it's because people can't ride it when that has nothing to do with it. There's a potentially really fun right turn there but not at the 2mph you're going to hit it after the bar grabber turn. The mental gymnastics that go into defending poor decisions is incredible. I just wish that much thought went into thing BEFORE the dirt starts getting moved. It's really not that hard.

I'm pretty much crippled these days with what hundreds of thousands of hours of building trails has done to my back. It's not a theoretical topic with me. While you may say there's no ideal way to route a trail, all I'm asking is that people at least try for good. And decapitators on the insides of what is supposed to be a bike trail is not that.

"I take whatever is handed to me and try to improve nothing" isn't exactly my deal

i can't tell you how many times i've encountered trails where the builder failed to account for the speed at which you'd be riding when building it. "well it seemed OK when i walked it"

 

[Happymtb.fr]

i can't tell you how many times i've encountered trails where the builder failed to account for the speed at which you'd be riding when building it. "well it seemed OK when i walked it"

That would be true for a majority of bermz popping up everywhere! The inside line is more fun and faster

 

[Andeh]

One of the local builders has this obsession with trying to manage speed by putting corners in places with trees on the inside shoulder, because you have to slow down to go around it, thus lengthening the effective trail time. He's actually my friend, but it drives me nuts and I give him grief about it constantly.

Build a trail that's fun to ride on the terrain that's available. If its short, that's unfortunate, but just pedal your ass back up and hit it again. We can't all live in places where you can have a -25% grade for 2,000 ft.

Edit:
He also likes to stack logs on the inside of corners to force people to ride the outside berm line. FFS man, if the trail wants to be ridden that way, maybe you picked a bad place to put a corner. Let the trail evolve and grow into what people want to ride.

 

[jonKranked]

That would be true for a majority of bermz popping up everywhere! The inside line is more fun and faster

you say berm, i say jump.

the thing i hate more than berms is decreasing radius turns.

 

[iRider]

Let the trail evolve and grow into what people want to ride.

Soon all local trails are like this:

 

[canadmos]

i can't tell you how many times i've encountered trails where the builder failed to account for the speed at which you'd be riding when building it. "well it seemed OK when i walked it"

Its perfectly fine for it to be built wrong the first time, its worse when a trail group or whoever refuses to allow it to be fixed.

It happens all the time here with organized trail build days. A few people from a club will come in (often at night....) and flag a new trail section. Then a chain gang crew of diggers will follow digging out the trail. Rarely do they ever come in after the initial work and fix shit.

 

[iRider]

Its perfectly fine for it to be built wrong the first time, its worse when a trail group or whoever refuses to allow it to be fixed.

Unfortunately "built wrong" is in a lot of people's minds everything that diverts from a smooth flow trail. And no, a couple of jumps do not make a trail "technical".

 

[johnbryanpeters]

I am inclined to re-title this topic to "Trail whining".

 

[gonefirefightin]

 

[Andeh]

Soon all local trails are like this:

I disagree - who wants to ride that? That's a walking path for geriatrics.

 

[Westy]

View attachment 171547

Based on the context of the thread and forum only discussions on GG downhill bikes should be allowed.

 

[kidwoo]

View attachment 171547

@mtg tagged me for a reason

I bring the party

 

[Fool]

Little early for the seasonal trail affective disorder to be kicking in, innit. Usually don't start going batshit in here until late Feb/March.

 

[Westy]

Little early for the seasonal trail affective disorder to be kicking in, innit. Usually don't start going batshit in here until late Feb/March.

Wut?

The annual menstrual cycle usually kicks in around November.

 

[kidwoo]

I disagree - who wants to ride that? That's a walking path for geriatrics.

He's just resorting to the common defense of shitty trail routing. "Oh well you don't like tight turns because you can't ride them" and "well if you don't like turns let's just build a straight sidewalk" when literally no one said either.



Just fyi this is one short section of the last complete trail I built. There are 5 lines through here. There are 5 because I removed a gigantic rock (bout 3ft tall) in the easiest line (2) so that you could come into it faster, ride the line I'm on here or the others and have a place to land without running into a wall since they all require a small drop and it's rough enough you need to let it roll. Most people walk this entire section. It took me two days a rock drill and endless sledge hammering. Without removing that rock 5ft downhill the only feasible line was 2 because you basically had to come to a stop and go around to the side of the rock I removed. The average hack would come upon, only see line 2 because you can just roll it and never even realize the other 4 lines are options..........and then complain that the 'trail' was sanitized. Having ridden all 5 lines multiple times I can promise you, the other 4 are way harder to ride than the one down the middle.....made possible by me hammering out a rock.

By the standards of most people bitching about sanitizing trails, they are literally incapable of seeing what's possible in an area because they think the only way to ride something is right down the middle of whatever was cleared. And give WAY too much credit to whoever put it there, thinking every little decision happened for a well thought out reason. I really really wish that were true but it's not. I screw stuff up to but like @canadmos said, it's okay to make things better after it's been ridden.

When trails get put in there's always some sort of corridor that needs to be established. Sometimes that wasn't done well initially and it needs to be continued after the trail is bedded in. People get all emotionally attached to a piece of wood or granite that should have been removed long before these fools even knew a trail was being put there to begin with. Not everything is perfect the first time around, and not every option is 'sanitizing' something.

 

[boostindoubles]

Once trails get ridden in speed management is totally different through the trail. There's always tweaking and changes as a trail evolves.

 

[6thElement]

I am inclined to re-title this topic to "Trail whining".

How about stripping out the last 20+ posts into a separate thread of "what's wrong with trailbuilding"?

 

[kidwoo]

What's with rid egg's frame whining?

What do you mean you want to use a different curing and bonding process? Why don't they just learn to ride what's already in use? This is new england, new epoxies just aren't how it's done.

What's with the low BB and longer front ends........they can't just be better riders and ride what some roadie thought was a good fit 30 years ago? Why they gotta sanitize everything with just one front triangle? They should learn to build more front triangles and they'd become better frame builders.

 

[toodles]

Let the trail evolve and grow into what people want to ride.

This. Very few trails are perfect the first time they're cut in. Some builders get it right first go, but nearly everyone imagines shit wrong when they're on foot and trying to figure out how something will go on a bike. The final version of most trails is quite different, and even long established trails still evolve due to weathering or frustrations over crappy sections.

How about stripping out the last 20+ posts into a separate thread of "what's wrong with trailbuilding"?

We should have a trail building thread. I was looking for advice on a chainsaw that would be easy to carry on a ride.

 

[fwp]

Question for the Builders on here
Say you have a general start and end point in mind on a hillside. Small hill 500ft Vertical, very Rocky and Steep in parts. Assuming the builder wants the trail to incorporate the steepest, most tech sections. Do you start from the Top down or Start at the steep/tech parts you wish to use and build up to the top and down from the bottom (of the steep section that is roughly 1/3 of the way down the hillside?
Had a trail roughly marked and some of the sections did not have the speed I had anticipated too slow or too tight. Head scratcher for me.
Also do you use flags or marking paint to easily remember where the trail is going during the build?

 

[Sandwich]

Question for the Builders on here

Lol I love our collective focus

 

[kidwoo]

sir this is an egg thread

 

[scrublover]

This. Very few trails are perfect the first time they're cut in. Some builders get it right first go, but nearly everyone imagines shit wrong when they're on foot and trying to figure out how something will go on a bike. The final version of most trails is quite different, and even long established trails still evolve due to weathering or frustrations over crappy sections.



We should have a trail building thread. I was looking for advice on a chainsaw that would be easy to carry on a ride.

Man, a good electric saw beats the pants off a gas saw for portability, and the newer ones in the last few years are pretty damn powerful with good battery life. Way lighter to pack/ride in with, even with spare batteries. Much quieter if you are wanting to not make a bunch of noise.

That and one of the big ass Silky crosscut saws.

 

[jonKranked]

Man, a good electric saw beats the pants off a gas saw for portability, and the newer ones in the last few years are pretty damn powerful with good battery life. Way lighter to pack/ride in with, even with spare batteries. Much quieter if you are wanting to not make a bunch of noise.

That and one of the big ass Silky crosscut saws.

Green works electric chainsaws are 25% off right now

 

[toodles]

Man, a good electric saw beats the pants off a gas saw for portability, and the newer ones in the last few years are pretty damn powerful with good battery life. Way lighter to pack/ride in with, even with spare batteries. Much quieter if you are wanting to not make a bunch of noise.

That and one of the big ass Silky crosscut saws.

I've got a couple of little Silkys but we just had a mini-tornado thingy here and my home trails are covered in debris and salad. Might look at some electric chainsaws, the quiet aspect is very appealing given the dubious legality of some of the tracks. Hope the batteries last awhile though - the spare batteries seem expensive.