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sanjuro

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Sep 13, 2004
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SF
Israel buys 2 nuclear-capable submarines

By RAMIT PLUSHNICK-MASTI, Associated Press Writer1 hour, 19 minutes ago

With the purchase of two more German-made Dolphin submarines capable of carrying nuclear warheads, military experts say Israel is sending a clear message to Iran that it can strike back if attacked by nuclear weapons.

The purchases come at a time when Iran is refusing to bow to growing Western demands to halt its nuclear program, and after Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has called for Israel to be "wiped off the map."

The new submarines, built at a cost of $1.3 billion with Germany footing one-third of the bill, have diesel-electric propulsion systems that allow them to remain submerged for longer periods of time than the three nuclear arms-capable submarines already in Israel's fleet, the Jerusalem Post reported.

The latest submarines not only would be able to carry out a first strike should Israel choose to do so, but they also would provide Israel with crucial second-strike capabilities, said Paul Beaver, a London-based independent defense analyst.

Israel is already believed to have that ability in the form of the Jericho-1 and Jericho-2 nuclear-capable ballistic missiles, which are buried so far underground they would survive a nuclear strike, he said.

"The Iranians would be very foolish if they attacked Israel," Beaver said.

German officials have said the contract for the new submarines was signed July 6, and the Jerusalem Post reported this week the subs will be operational shortly.

Israel, operating on a policy of nuclear ambiguity, has never confirmed or denied whether it has nuclear weapons. It is believed, however, to have the world's sixth-largest stockpile of atomic arms, including hundreds of warheads.

Iran so far has resisted calls by the U.N. Security Council to halt uranium enrichment, which can produce, among other things, the material for atomic bombs. The council set an Aug. 31 deadline that is accompanied by the threat of sanctions.

The dispute over Tehran's nuclear program revolves around Iran's insistence it wants to master the technology simply to generate electricity. Critics say Iran wants to make nuclear weapons.

The Dolphin submarine could be one of the best deterrents, Beaver said. The technology on the subs makes them undetectable and gives them defensive capabilities in the case of attack, he said.

"They are very well-built, very well-prepared, lots of interesting equipment, one of the best conventional submarines available," Beaver said. "We are talking about a third string of deterrence capabilities."

Michael Karpin, an expert on Israel's atomic weapons capabilities who published a book on the issue in the United States, said nuclear-armed submarines provide better second-strike capabilities than missiles launched from airplanes.

"Planes are vulnerable, unlike nuclear (armed) submarines that can operate for an almost unlimited amount of time without being struck," Karpin said. "Second-strike capabilities are a crucial element in any nuclear conflict."

In Germany, members of two opposition parties criticized the deal. Winfried Nachtwei, national security spokesman for the Greens, said the decision was wrong because Germany had obtained no guarantee the submarines would not be used to carry nuclear weapons.

"This red line should not be crossed," Nachtwei was quoted as saying by the newspaper Taz. "Otherwise it is a complete renunciation of Germany's policy of non-proliferation."

David Menashri, an Israeli expert on Iran, said Tehran is clearly determined to obtain nuclear weapons and "the purchase of additional Dolphin submarines by Israel is a small footnote in this context."

What also makes Tehran dangerous, Beaver said, is that it may not understand the consequences of carrying out a nuclear strike.

"They (Iran) have a belligerent leadership and that's why Israel is prudent in ensuring that it has that deterrent capability," Beaver said. "What they (the submarines) are is a very good insurance policy."
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,737
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chez moi
The world's gone MAD all over again. (wait, it never stopped...)

Actually, insane as it is, MAD is really the only preventative to nuclear war...it just gets to be a mushy issue when you're dealing with non-state actors with potential nukes.
 

blue

boob hater
Jan 24, 2004
10,160
2
california
"...submarines that can operate for an almost unlimited amount of time without being struck,"

A diesel submarine? Please.
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,658
0
Filastin
sanjuro said:
Guess who is dropping by for a surprise visit
I was gonna say Natty Dreadlock, but it was babylon again...

sanjuro said:
The purchases come at a time when Iran is refusing to bow to growing Western demands to halt its nuclear program, and after Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has called for Israel to be "wiped off the map."
Bow to your kings damnit, or you'll be cast in the dungeons.

sanjuro said:
The new submarines, built at a cost of $1.3 billion with Germany footing one-third of the bill, have diesel-electric propulsion systems that allow them to remain submerged for longer periods of time than the three nuclear arms-capable submarines already in Israel's fleet, the Jerusalem Post reported.
Great, Germany is going to have a part in WWIII too. As a main sponsor.

sanjuro said:
The latest submarines not only would be able to carry out a first strike should Israel choose to do so, but they also would provide Israel with crucial second-strike capabilities, said Paul Beaver, a London-based independent defense analyst.
History has proven they have, and may choose to do so again. No worries.

sanjuro said:
Israel, operating on a policy of nuclear ambiguity, has never confirmed or denied whether it has nuclear weapons. It is believed, however, to have the world's sixth-largest stockpile of atomic arms, including hundreds of warheads.
No bowing needed here, they might nuke us..

sanjuro said:
Iran so far has resisted calls by the U.N. Security Council to halt uranium enrichment, which can produce, among other things, the material for atomic bombs. The council set an Aug. 31 deadline that is accompanied by the threat of sanctions.
No threat of sanctions for "the big five" who have promised to demobilize until there are no nukes for 60 years now...

sanjuro said:
"They are very well-built, very well-prepared, lots of interesting equipment, one of the best conventional submarines available," Beaver said. "We are talking about a third string of deterrence capabilities."
There's that deterrance you've been talking about Alexis. I really hope it works!

sanjuro said:
In Germany, members of two opposition parties criticized the deal. Winfried Nachtwei, national security spokesman for the Greens, said the decision was wrong because Germany had obtained no guarantee the submarines would not be used to carry nuclear weapons.
Only two out of a whole parliament! They must have their own Cynthia McKinney, and what's that other dudes name, there..
Sweden asks for guarantees like that before they export to some countries. US/UK is not one of them. Apparently the social democrats consider "a good relationship with the US is more important to national interest than supporting a war party". :banghead: and there goes your illusions of "the pacifist swedes".... :eek:

sanjuro said:
"This red line should not be crossed," Nachtwei was quoted as saying by the newspaper Taz. "Otherwise it is a complete renunciation of Germany's policy of non-proliferation."
They still have a lot of guilt obviously. Still beeing blamed for the double amount of Jews killed than has been acounted for, doesn't help eather.

sanjuro said:
What also makes Tehran dangerous, Beaver said, is that it may not understand the consequences of carrying out a nuclear strike.
How can that slip anybodys mind?

sanjuro said:
"They (Iran) have a belligerent leadership and that's why Israel is prudent in ensuring that it has that deterrent capability,"
Yeh, unlike Israel who have shown nothing but peaceful acts this past month and them 40years in Palestine. Iran, who has a fundamentalist gvmt since 1979, hasn't attacked anybody. But I guess roses don't smell like poo poo..
 

valve bouncer

Master Dildoist
Feb 11, 2002
7,843
114
Japan
blue said:
"...submarines that can operate for an almost unlimited amount of time without being struck,"

A diesel submarine? Please.
Diesel-electric. The Australia navy operates 6 Collins class diesel-electric subs. Apparently in war games with the US navy the Collins class subs have found and "killed" American nuclear powered subs. I've heard that the diesel-electric can actually be quieter than nuclear powered ones. The main drawback obviously is that they can't remain submerged for as long as nuclear powered subs.
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
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Filastin
valve bouncer said:
Diesel-electric. The Australia navy operates 6 Collins class diesel-electric subs. Apparently in war games with the US navy the Collins class subs have found and "killed" American nuclear powered subs. I've heard that the diesel-electric can actually be quieter than nuclear powered ones. The main drawback obviously is that they can't remain submerged for as long as nuclear powered subs.
Them Collins class aren't they the extended model of the Swedish Gotland class of late 90's with air independent sterling engines?
 

valve bouncer

Master Dildoist
Feb 11, 2002
7,843
114
Japan
rockwool said:
Them Collins class aren't they the extended model of the Swedish Gotland class of late 90's with air independent sterling engines?
I'm not up with all the tech details but they are Swedish made so I'd guess they were the same.
 

blue

boob hater
Jan 24, 2004
10,160
2
california
Diesel-electric. The Australia navy operates 6 Collins class diesel-electric subs. Apparently in war games with the US navy the Collins class subs have found and "killed" American nuclear powered subs. I've heard that the diesel-electric can actually be quieter than nuclear powered ones. The main drawback obviously is that they can't remain submerged for as long as nuclear powered subs.

Diesel-Electic=the stuff the Germans used in WW1.

The problem is you can't run the diesel engine underwater (lack of oxygen), so you have to run a battery to power the engines (very limited), and the diesel engine charges the battery when the boat is surfaced.

Not to mention the relatively limited sea-time of a diesel boat compared to nuclear.

Were they killing boomers? Not a big shock for boomers to go down during war games against fast attacks...
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
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Filastin
Diesel-Electic=the stuff the Germans used in WW1.

The problem is you can't run the diesel engine underwater (lack of oxygen), so you have to run a battery to power the engines (very limited), and the diesel engine charges the battery when the boat is surfaced.

Not to mention the relatively limited sea-time of a diesel boat compared to nuclear.

Were they killing boomers? Not a big shock for boomers to go down during war games against fast attacks...
The diesel-electric sterling engine is air independent. Somehow it circulates the air and has twice as long sub time than a conventional diesel-electric engine.

VB- I had a vague memory of reading about that sale. The competition stood between the Swedish and a German sub. Also want to remember it said somting like, that the Ausies picked it partially out of spite for the German sales guys who were bad mouthing their competitor. The Collins class is about 20-25% longer than the Gotland class which is designed for close littoral warfare.
 

valve bouncer

Master Dildoist
Feb 11, 2002
7,843
114
Japan
Diesel-Electic=the stuff the Germans used in WW1.

The problem is you can't run the diesel engine underwater (lack of oxygen), so you have to run a battery to power the engines (very limited), and the diesel engine charges the battery when the boat is surfaced.

Not to mention the relatively limited sea-time of a diesel boat compared to nuclear.

Were they killing boomers? Not a big shock for boomers to go down during war games against fast attacks...
LA class. Also plenty of reports out there suggesting carriers are also vulnerable.
http://www.jinsa.org/articles/articles.html/function/view/categoryid/164/documentid/2873/history/3,2360,656,164,2873
If you think the latest diesel-electrics are rinky dink toys not worthy of worry then I think you better come back to reality. They are extremely capable.
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
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SF
LA class. Also plenty of reports out there suggesting carriers are also vulnerable.
http://www.jinsa.org/articles/articles.html/function/view/categoryid/164/documentid/2873/history/3,2360,656,164,2873
If you think the latest diesel-electrics are rinky dink toys not worthy of worry then I think you better come back to reality. They are extremely capable.
How far is Israel to Iran? A couple of hundred miles?

Plus if you have 2, then you send one out when the other comes back...
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,658
0
Filastin
http://www.jinsa.org/articles/articles.html/function/view/categoryid/154/documentid/501/history/3,2360,654,154,501

"July 28, 1998 in Information, Analysis and News : Security of Israel :

Israel to Receive Type-209 Submarines
Israel will soon receive the first of three German-built Type-209 diesel-electric submarines ordered during the 1990-1991 Gulf War crisis. Costing approximately $150 million apiece with Germany paying for the first two and Israel paying for the third, they are expected to be among the most capable conventionally-powered submarines in the world."



-WTF! The german taxpayers seem to be paying for Israels terror on a regular basis.. Bet it was under Christ Democratic partys rule the other time aswell.
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,658
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Filastin
http://www.jinsa.org/articles/articles.html/function/view/categoryid/154/documentid/501/history/3,2360,654,154,501

"July 28, 1998 in Information, Analysis and News : Security of Israel :

Israel to Receive Type-209 Submarines
Israel will soon receive the first of three German-built Type-209 diesel-electric submarines ordered during the 1990-1991 Gulf War crisis. Costing approximately $150 million apiece with Germany paying for the first two and Israel paying for the third, they are expected to be among the most capable conventionally-powered submarines in the world."



-WTF! The german taxpayers seem to be paying for Israels terror on a regular basis.. Bet it was under Christ Democratic partys rule the other time aswell.
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,658
0
Filastin
Yeah I remember hearing about a collins that on an exercise manages to sneak thru the screen undetected and surface beside a US carrier. Scared the crap out of the yanks aparently at the time. :rofl:
Seems like the USA is beeing whipped on more military fields:

"The USAF has recently conducted a joint exercise with the Indian Air Force. The U.S. F-15C/D’s simulated combat against several Russian-made Su-30MKi, MiG-27, MiG-29 and even pretty obsolete MiG-21 Bison, which defeated the U.S. “Eagles” totally and utterly. U.S. General Hal Homburg, head of the USAF Air Combat Command, said that the result of the exercise was a big surprise to the American pilots."

http://english.pravda.ru/science/tech/15-02-2006/75975-raptor-0