Remind me again what event they were protesting exactly......and what their demands were.
And what exactly are the demands of the CHOP/CHAZers?
Gun Control
And what exactly are the demands of the CHOP/CHAZers?
Agreed? I don't recall defending him.
Everyone there was picking a fight.
The video shows protesters pushing people around too,.
Fighting over a statue makes them all assholes imo.
I posted the knife screen shot to illustrate that both sides came armed, looking for trouble.
You find what you look for and this shits going to get out of hand.
Quite a bit of crazy shit.
Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone | Protestor Demands
THE DEMANDS OF THE COLLECTIVE BLACK VOICES AT FREE CAPITOL HILL TO THE GOVERNMENT OF SEATTLE, WASHINGTON
caphillauto.zone
Didn't say you did. My comment was a reply to "If that’s the case this guys going to walk." Just thinking it might not be that clear, legally-speaking.
that sounds like a "zone" ripe for a crime spree.Quite a bit of crazy shit.
Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone | Protestor Demands
THE DEMANDS OF THE COLLECTIVE BLACK VOICES AT FREE CAPITOL HILL TO THE GOVERNMENT OF SEATTLE, WASHINGTON
Hopefully not.
I approve of the beat down, the knife changes things a bit if that's what prompted him to shoot.
What do they have to say about grazing rights?Quite a bit of crazy shit.
Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone | Protestor Demands
THE DEMANDS OF THE COLLECTIVE BLACK VOICES AT FREE CAPITOL HILL TO THE GOVERNMENT OF SEATTLE, WASHINGTON
It's not that any law can be sidestepped, it's the lack of consistency, which makes many of the laws fairly worthless. Just like lack of national standards for police. If you can go to the next department over and get hired after getting fired, or the next state over and pick up an assault rifle at a "gun show", the laws aren't worth the paper they are written on. We'd have to be doing car searches for every car going in and out of the state (relative to guns) if we wanted to actually then "enforce" those state laws. I'm sure all those far-right peeps would love mandatory searches. Probably ok though as long as it's just other skin-colors getting searched though.
I don't read it as crazy at all. It addresses a bunch of root problems in our society.Quite a bit of crazy shit.
Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone | Protestor Demands
THE DEMANDS OF THE COLLECTIVE BLACK VOICES AT FREE CAPITOL HILL TO THE GOVERNMENT OF SEATTLE, WASHINGTON
All seems pretty legit to me, if worded poorly.
That's why I asked. The oregon standoff was over an arson case, the family charged didn't even want them there.What do they have to say about grazing rights?
The CHOP is mostly demanding exactly what black lives matter has been demanding for years.
See the difference yet?
Similar theme but there are some pretty important diversions. Primarily that they have the local gov'ts attention who is now seriously considering a lot of the requests, and that their requests are largely a suggested means to reach compliance with existing law. The bundy kooks just made shit up about the constitution.
I don't know, I'm with westy in that it seems a little wierd and a little #wokebros. But I haven't been there. But for all the people clutching their pearls about reducing police budgets, it's a good chance to play 'watch this.' I know you want to make it out to be an incompetent mess but it's a little richer statement than (another) bunch of fat white guys armed to the gills complaining about non-existent rights.
Last edited:
lol at ignore lists. Just don’t read their posts. Think I read everyone of yours ?Whoa, this is awesome! The ignore list doesn't even show that someone posted at all. It makes this thread look like I'm talking to myself, just like in real life!
Back in ‘95 I met an artist from Albuquerque who told me he had to step over a body to get into his studio. My studio has always been in the hood but I’ve never had to do that.
I will be the first person to admit that this town is full of leftwing wack jobs. As an American I would measure myself as a liberal, on the Seattle scale I am probably well to the right of center. But I would certainly prefer to live in a town where people will stand and get gassed and beaten night after night trying to protect the rights of others than in a place where they are pissed because they think they should be able to let their cows eat grass on public lands.
The Seattle Police are fucking worthless. It all happened before I moved here and I don't know the details but the department has been under federal oversite "after being found to have used excessive force, and policies that led to biased policing". These guys are worthless because they are pretty much not allowed to do anything. For years their solution to every problem was to crack skulls. So now they aren't allowed to do anything until cracking skulls is necessary.
Homeless camps overflow with stolen bikes and generators. They aren't allowed to go into the camps and question people because in the past they just went in and cracked skulls. Nothing happens to shoplifters for the same reason. Seattle has obscene levels of property crime as a result. After 8 years of pretty much doing nothing and only murdering a few people they were just about to get released from federal oversight.
The CHAZ protesters played them like a fiddle. The first night of protest and property damage was pretty chaotic. The following nights and the confrontations in front of the East precinct were well executed by the protesters. They taunted the Police until they reacted, and everytime they reacted it was a gross and violent over-reaction. 8 year olds were maced and reporters assaulted. The protesters, a chaotic group of BLM, anarchists, communists beat the police by showing more discipline than a well organize and well funded professional organization. They made the cops show their true colors.
The CHAZs demands are extreme but they are going to get some change out of it. Disbanding all police is dumb. Disbanding a organization that has proven itself to be incapable of reform and restructuring it ain't a bad idea, but I don't know how you do that successfully. Either way reducing police responsibility, reducing their budget and funding other organizations to take over those responsibilities makes sense.
People who have their freedumb panties in a bunch probably never heard of the jungle or the hundreds of truly lawless camps across American cities.
The Jungle (Seattle) - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
In 17 years of posting here that was my 3rd. The first two were N8.lol at ignore lists. Just don’t read their posts. Think I read everyone of yours ?
I ain't got time to read strong opinions on topics from people who don't know the very basic starting points of those topics. Even people who I'm constantly at odds with I have no problem with if they're capable of a discussion. Those who aren't.......meh.
you've seen it all discussed already.
-Move money from militarization and towards community service.
-Create real accountability for those empowered to enforce law at the patrol level
-DON'T FUCKING HIRE PEOPLE WHO YOU KNOW ARE WHITE SUPREMACISTS
-Punish deliberate escalation
-Make disciplinary records public, or at least available upon request
-Drop the idiotic glass windows approac
-Drop all the dumb mandatory sentencing requirements
-Don't do dumb shit like charge the citizenry with penalties that the police aren't subject to
-Drop this opinion based qualified immunity nonsense
-Create a mandatory framework for listening to the people being policed, not just the ones doing it
-Mandatory community outreach so that those being policed become humanized
We are not the only big country with big cities with problems. There are countless models from which to draw.
Last edited:
But until you get a police force willing to police itself and a culture bwhere people value accountability you end up with the same toxic bucket of shit. It has been proven time and again just setting rules do not work.
Part of my job is working with all kinds of public employees. There really are people out there interested in serving their community.
Fire the bastards, hire and keep on the benevolent.
You don't employ doctors who just like the slicing up and filling out the death certificate part. It's no different in policing, yet we consistently hire and maintain dickheads just interested in a fight, and little to no motivation to serve the community.
Last edited:
Expanding on that theme: we have health care workers committing suicide and quitting their jobs because they feel helpless to actually treat people effectively right now.
What are you seeing from cops who are also undergoing a pretty stressful time right about now?
a) What can we do better?
b) I'm quitting because the inability to serve my community is wearing on me
c) Fuck you, show some respect, you need us
You know which answer you're seeing the most of
What are you seeing from cops who are also undergoing a pretty stressful time right about now?
a) What can we do better?
b) I'm quitting because the inability to serve my community is wearing on me
c) Fuck you, show some respect, you need us
You know which answer you're seeing the most of
It's already illegal to sell a long gun to an out of state buyer if that weapon isn't legal in their home state.
All handguns need to be sold in residency state of buyer also.
It's a 10yr federal felony to buy a gun for someone else in order to sidestep background checks.
I can't go to Maine or NH and buy anything that isn't legal in MA. (my dual residency in ME gets me around that personally, but I'm an anomaly)
Gun show loophoole?; just stop.
What you're missing is that states like NY/NJ/CA/MA/CT created that patchwork by going outside the federal laws.
The ATFs interpretation of who's eligible and what guns are legal is very clear.
Name a law that isn't circumvented by those who desire to break it.
Laws only apply to honest people.
I'm no cop fanboy but the blue-flu that ATL got a taste of last night is going to spread in this climate.
Were I a cop now there's zero chance I would risk a murder conviction or wrongful death lawsuit by intervening in any altercation.
Without support they are simply going to let darwin settle conflicts, they have zero legal mandate to protect citizens contrary to popular opinion.
Justices Rule Police Do Not Have a Constitutional Duty to Protect Someone (Published 2005)
Supreme Court rules that police do not have constitutional duty to protect person from harm, even woman who obtained court-issued protective order against violent husband which made arrest mandatory for violation; decision overturns ruling by federal appeals court in Colorado; it had permitted...
E: https://mises.org/power-market/police-have-no-duty-protect-you-federal-court-affirms-yet-again
But the protesters are correct, the policing in some communities is broken.
Now's the perfect time to withdraw them and allow the community fill the enforcement vacuum as they see fit.
Let the cards fall as they may from there.
I view cops like life jackets; just there to make body collection easier.
As individuals/communities it's up to us to assure our own well being.
Last edited:
part of the problem regarding the access to military grade equipment and military hand-me-downs is that it was legalized at the federal level post 9/11. cutting the funding at state/city level won't completely stop that flow, that has to be cut off at the federal level.
edit: correction - clinton legalized program 1033 in 1997, but it didn't really take off until post 9/11
Last edited:
Do you feel the problems outlined above were caused by the police or that the police issues were caused by trying to control problems seemingly endorsed by politicians and the citizens that elected them?I will be the first person to admit that this town is full of leftwing wack jobs. As an American I would measure myself as a liberal, on the Seattle scale I am probably well to the right of center. But I would certainly prefer to live in a town where people will stand and get gassed and beaten night after night trying to protect the rights of others than in a place where they are pissed because they think they should be able to let their cows eat grass on public lands.
The Seattle Police are fucking worthless. It all happened before I moved here and I don't know the details but the department has been under federal oversite "after being found to have used excessive force, and policies that led to biased policing". These guys are worthless because they are pretty much not allowed to do anything. For years their solution to every problem was to crack skulls. So now they aren't allowed to do anything until cracking skulls is necessary.
Homeless camps overflow with stolen bikes and generators. They aren't allowed to go into the camps and question people because in the past they just went in and cracked skulls. Nothing happens to shoplifters for the same reason. Seattle has obscene levels of property crime as a result. After 8 years of pretty much doing nothing and only murdering a few people they were just about to get released from federal oversight.
The CHAZ protesters played them like a fiddle. The first night of protest and property damage was pretty chaotic. The following nights and the confrontations in front of the East precinct were well executed by the protesters. They taunted the Police until they reacted, and everytime they reacted it was a gross and violent over-reaction. 8 year olds were maced and reporters assaulted. The protesters, a chaotic group of BLM, anarchists, communists beat the police by showing more discipline than a well organize and well funded professional organization. They made the cops show their true colors.
The CHAZs demands are extreme but they are going to get some change out of it. Disbanding all police is dumb. Disbanding a organization that has proven itself to be incapable of reform and restructuring it ain't a bad idea, but I don't know how you do that successfully. Either way reducing police responsibility, reducing their budget and funding other organizations to take over those responsibilities makes sense.
People who have their freedumb panties in a bunch probably never heard of the jungle or the hundreds of truly lawless camps across American cities.
The Jungle (Seattle) - Wikipedia
Seattle 'failing' at handling chronic criminal homeless, report says
A group of Seattle civic leaders say there is data to back up the idea that a group living on the street is responsible for an unusually high level of crime, and that the system to prevent it is failing.
www.google.com
Seattle Under Siege
The Seattle metro area spends more than $1 billion fighting homelessness every year. That’s nearly $100,000 for every homeless man, woman, and child, yet the crisis seems only to have deepened.
www.city-journal.org
Downtown Seattle's Rising Crime Rate Stings City's Hospitality Sector
WATERFRONT DOWN. Seattles waterfront businesses cope regularly with homeless camps and the ugliness of drug addiction.
www.seattlebusinessmag.com
The police aren't equipped to solve that problem. You're right that the government has not shown a willingness to address the problem head on, but that's in large part due to people being afraid of moral hazard if the chronically indigent are housed on the state's dime.
Perfect.
Fewer people to miss their jobs when their budgets get reallocated.There's that assumption again, that chaos reigns with fewer cops. It's not that clear cut.
The NYPD Slowdown’s Dirty Little Secret
Cutting off low level arrests was supposed to be a bargaining tactic for police officers in New York, but not all of them want the slowdown to end.
www.thedailybeast.com
This isn't the going to be the regret and terror that these self-important assholes think it is when people want them gone anyway. Buh-bye
I'd forgotten about that court ruling abjugating the responsiblity to protect. Yeah fuck this whole system. Why does it even exist at this point.
Versus the chronically indigent being jailed on the state's dime?
Maslow, something something, physiological needs...
I'd prefer my taxes go to help people, if given the option.
This feels like it should be in the F the police thread, but...This isn't the going to be the regret and terror that these self-important assholes think it is when people want them gone anyway. Buh-bye
I don't know about that. The $64,000 question remains, if there are no police, who is going to enforce laws, or protect the public from those who would do them harm?
Right now we seem to have a vocal group who wants to try the "unarmed, volunteer, we-can-do-better, neighborhood watch" thing, which is honestly great. They should try it. I still have my doubts.
For the 10000000000000th time, no one is seriously considering zero mechanism for law enforcement
I promise you, no is thinking that throwing a hippy at a rapist is going to fix the problem.
Pulling fraternity charters will.
See? No cops needed
I would argue that this does belong in the gun control thread. Why? Because 99.9999% of the motivation for cops to escalate is the fear of someone having a gun.
Last edited:
Well there's certainly more chaos when officers, even when present, stand by.Perfect.
There's that assumption again, that chaos reigns with fewer cops. It's not that clear cut.
The NYPD Slowdown’s Dirty Little Secret
Cutting off low level arrests was supposed to be a bargaining tactic for police officers in New York, but not all of them want the slowdown to end.
This isn't the going to be the regret and terror that these self-important assholes think it is when people want them gone anyway. Buh-bye
I'd forgotten about that court ruling abjugating the responsiblity to protect. Yeah fuck this whole system. Why does it even exist at this point.
"I specifically noted the presence of undercover officers who were referenced in the original complaint filed by [the Albuquerque Police Department] and the fact that while those officers are now key witnesses, they did not intervene and act to enforce the specific laws or prevent the shooting," Torrez said.
He added, "More troubling, from our perspective, is the fact that after police and APD arrived at the scene, because of the dynamic situation and the tense situation that developed ... there were tactics that were used by the Albuquerque PD that made it impossible for key witnesses to the event to actually make statements."
Suspect In Shooting At Albuquerque Statue Demonstration Faces New Charges
Police arrested Steven Ray Baca following the Monday shooting. It happened during an attempt by protesters to topple a conquistador statue that also drew armed vigilantes to protect it.
www.npr.org
I'm with you, Nick, and indeed when I was in Seattle King County established an apartment block with an in-house nurse because they calculated that the cost of that was less than the cost of repeated "fell from curb and hit head while drunk" workups at the county hospital, with the cost of either eaten by the county.
And, like Kevin says, no one would entirely abolish the police. They'd be reserved for the few instances where they're the most appropriate response, like in-process violent crime.
The other 95% of the scenarios would be handled by social workers, addiction specialists, mental health professionals, etc.
Not sure if this is the program or a related one. I thought it was a longer term deal.
Yeah they seem to do that a lot when they're actually needed, and escalate when they're not. Let's not discount the performance of skateboard/knife guy
Right, except that is literally the 1st demand of the Seattle CHAZ group.
Just saying.
For the 10000000000000th time, no one is seriously considering zero mechanism for law enforcement
Just flicking the light switch to zero cops and leaving a vaccuum is NOT their request. Come on man, read more than just the headlines. There's equally as much in the demands of what backfills that role.
If it helps: I know fox news really wants to make a big deal of this. But you just heard from westy who actually lives there. Seattle is nowhere near the only city with this discussion going on. Want to talk about minneapolis?
Dan-o: you seriously need to read other shit on facebook. From the video: I go inside CHAZ and expose the dangerous radicalism
Ooh, journalism
I'll ask a serious question for everyone here: who is 'served' by a county sheriff (elected) vs. a city PD (appointed)?
I live in unincorporated sheriff territory, but spend just as much time in a PD territory in the next town over where my office is, as well as having to deal with state police. Both the PD and state guys are under constant rotation in and out here. It's led to at least one instance of a gun being pulled on me for the gall to reach into my glove compartment to get the registration the asshole just asked for. Why? New recruit from LA with very little understanding that sometimes people just drive to the grocery store.
Last edited:
I don't FB or Fox.Dan-o: you seriously need to read other shit on facebook. From the video: I go inside CHAZ and expose the dangerous radicalism
Ooh, journalism
How do you counter direct video quote of Chaz 'leader'.
There's no editorializing it, those are the words she said and they mirror their demands.
Or shall we defer to the trump defense of pretending it wasn't said?
In the meantime I'll dig into some hard hitting 'journalism'.
It doesn't matter. The only guy saying that's the Leader is the one making that video who obviously has a specific goal. I know it makes for tidy propaganda but he's basically pulling a jesse watters and going "seee!! seee!!!, I found someone saying something that sounds unrealistic and then position that person so that you think the entire movement is that"
You see any mention of Jaiden Grayson here? https://chaz.zone/
As THE LEADER, you'd think she'd have some prominence. It's not about her or her individual desires. This is thousands of people, all with their own nuances with one simple theme: the current SPD situation sucks, start over.
This is so far beyond one person or even one city, you're letting yourself get distracted by bullshit. For what purpose? Think everything is cool with policing in big cities? You've already said you're not. Neither you nor I live in seattle so this isn't likely to ever matter to either of us, yet you can't seem to get off that one specific block, in one specific city enough let yourself even engage in the discussion. This is what white people and society at large have been doing for centuries when they don't want to do something that's hard. Because they can always find ways to justify NOT doing something. That's the problem.
So you have any ideas or just want to sit there and point and go 'har har, look at the crazy lady'
Seattle is not the epicenter of this nationwide movement. Those who are trying to make it the epicenter just want to distract from the message. Apparently it's working.
Last edited:
Increase training budgets and mandate more rigorous certifications.
Body cameras are a huge improvement. They should be mandated to be on non-stop for all on-duty cops.
Increase training budgets and mandate more rigorous certifications.
Use of Force laws should be reviewed and improved where possible. (That said, I did read the ATL SOP for use of deadly force and I think that those charges are going to be very hard to prove. The state rushed to charges for optics.)
Require community policing / restore walking beats in areas where possible.
Increase training budgets and mandate more rigorous certifications.
You said increase training like 4 times. Have you read much on the MinnPD background and how long that's been going on? To the point that the federal government had been involved (consent decrees, all that jazz)? They've been 'retraining' police departments as a response to brutality since the 60s. Same in Atlanta. Same in Ferguson. Sounds like the same in Seattle. Keeping the assholes around and thinking that some videos with hand holding is going to change things has proven pretty useless.
Body cameras are definitely there for a reason and the only real complete picture of what went on in atlanta. But you've also seen how many times 'the officers camera wasn't turned on/malfunctioning etc'. It's kind of a weird one because lack of footage seems sketchy but in something like an active shooter situation, I don't think holding back a cop because his camera won't turn on is a great outcome either.
What about accountability more broadly? Repeat cop offenders? Completely hidden disciplinary records and the inability to get rid of genuinely horrible people?
I actually watched a good bit of the hearing in ATL yesterday. Their case is going to be stronger than you think. Hard to say the cop felt threatened when he's literally just sitting there kicking a dead guy.
Body cameras are definitely there for a reason and the only real complete picture of what went on in atlanta. But you've also seen how many times 'the officers camera wasn't turned on/malfunctioning etc'. It's kind of a weird one because lack of footage seems sketchy but in something like an active shooter situation, I don't think holding back a cop because his camera won't turn on is a great outcome either.
What about accountability more broadly? Repeat cop offenders? Completely hidden disciplinary records and the inability to get rid of genuinely horrible people?
I actually watched a good bit of the hearing in ATL yesterday. Their case is going to be stronger than you think. Hard to say the cop felt threatened when he's literally just sitting there kicking a dead guy.
Last edited:
There has been a bit of a perfect storm is Seattle regarding homelessness. Cost of housing in the 20-teens went up across the country but here it was really bad with the introduction of Amazon and other tech companies. 50,000+ tech workers making vast salaries quickly rolled into town driving housing costs through the roof. This literally pushed people living on the margins into the streets. Throw in an opioid epidemic at the same time and shit gets ugly fast and as one of the article stated the root of the problem isn’t cost of living, but it made it worse. From the law and order perspective people here are pretty tolerant, much more than I am. The public consensus is throwing people into jail because they are poor costs a lot of taxpayer money and actually makes the problem worse, I can’t say I disagree with that but little else has been done to fix the problem. When you get large groups of people living outside of society lawlessness ensues. Lack of police enforcement definitely makes that worse and it is frustrating as hell. And that lack of enforcement is driven a lot by rules handed down by the government. But the reason why those rules were made is because without them the police were not effectively doing their jobs and abusing their power. Let’s ignore the humanitarian aspect of it, you cannot actively run government when you get bankrupted by lawsuits over excessive police force. All that went down prior to when I moved here, perhaps all those rules and oversight made a better police force. The reaction of the police to the recent demonstrations showed that they haven’t exactly perfected accountability and de-escalation. What could have been a display of responsibility turned into a show of force, which included ignoring orders from both the mayor and the police chief. A direct result of that was the application to remove federal oversight was withdrawn.Do you feel the problems outlined above were caused by the police or that the police issues were caused by trying to control problems seemingly endorsed by politicians and the citizens that elected them?
Seattle 'failing' at handling chronic criminal homeless, report says
A group of Seattle civic leaders say there is data to back up the idea that a group living on the street is responsible for an unusually high level of crime, and that the system to prevent it is failing.
Seattle Under Siege
The Seattle metro area spends more than $1 billion fighting homelessness every year. That’s nearly $100,000 for every homeless man, woman, and child, yet the crisis seems only to have deepened.
Downtown Seattle's Rising Crime Rate Stings City's Hospitality Sector
WATERFRONT DOWN. Seattles waterfront businesses cope regularly with homeless camps and the ugliness of drug addiction.
The police here have proven to be unable to properly handle problems where social issues and crime are one in the same, and we should be asking if that should really be their jobs. A guy with a gun and pepper spray isn’t really equipped to deal with drug addiction and mental health problems. And that is the whole point to reasonable ideas of defunding the police. Remove that from their list of responsibilities and provide that funding to people who are equipped to solve that problem.
As an interesting note, I think crime around here has certainly increased in certain areas like downtown but overall rates have actually decreased. Another interesting point is that despite having high property crime rates, Seattle has relatively low violent crime rates, similar to Denver and Boston.
‘Third World hellhole?’ New data shows Seattle had lowest property crime rate in decades
For all the caterwauling about public safety in Seattle, here on the streets crime actually went down, across the board, in 2019. Robbery was down 9 percent from a year ago, burglary was off 6 percent. The property crime rate...
www.seattletimes.com