[AngryMetalsmith]

I remember reading news articles about the Gabby Giffords shooting and noticed that the type of gun, brand, caliber and model were mentioned. Sales of that particular weapon increased immediately following the massacre. I expect this time to be no different as the the weapons used in yesterday's shooting have been equally identified.

Reading the comments posted below the current online news articles in favor of gun rights and the defense of the 2nd amendment is just sickening. This country's love affair with guns at all cost is beyond disturbing to me. Twenty children were gunned down and frothers can offer no sympathy for the grieving but instead vehemently defend their right to weapons. Is the unrestricted right to posses firearms more important than the lives of children ?

Some offer such nuggets of wisdom as to suggest that yesterday's tragedy could have been avoided if the teachers were carrying side arms. Their idea is to add more guns to the equation. This is insane, completely.

We have a problem in the US, and the need for gun control is only a symptom. We as culture and a people have some serious issues that need to be addressed. The mentality needs to change before laws can have any impact.

 

[stevew]

This countries love affair with guns at all cost is beyond disturbing to me. Twenty children were gunned down and frothers can offer no sympathy for the grieving but instead vehemently defend their right to weapons.

go to a gun show.....frothing isn't color blind.

 

[kidwoo]

-- There are 700,000 physicians in the United States.
-- There are 120,000 accidental deaths in the United States caused by physicians every year, and the accidental death percentage per physician is 0.171.
-- There are 80 million gun owners in the United States.
-- There are 1,500 accidental deaths from guns every year, regardless of age group, and the accidental death percentage per gun owner is 0.0000188.

Keep in mind these medical professionals are still trying to save lives.


Alcohol related deaths are tens times larger than violent crimes with firearms but nobody is demanding stricter alcohol laws......


Lest we even need to get into smoking, motor vehicle accidents, knives, or any other inanimate object that you can focus blame on.

Firearms are regulated more than any other object on the planet but yet people will still kill people or themselves with any means possible.

Hey einstein. Cars and knives help the economy and people's lives. Guns just shoot shlt. They are unique and wholly stand on their own. And unless you're one of the assholes that works for the NRA with their cheeks spread to whatever smith and wesson tells them, THEY DO NOT BENEFIT YOUR DAILY LIFE. Even those things you call thoughts are ginned up by a LOBBY group who keeps their financial masters happy by putting up these fvcking retarded arguments.

Where the hell do you thing this whole 'more gunz' mindset comes from? It comes from a lobbying company that gets more money every time people buy the damn things. That's why they sent out all this booga booga obama crap that you can see right this very second on their website. More guns is more money for them. It's not about freedom, it's not about keeping the government at bay. It's about making themselves rich, with fvck all concern for how many people die.

 

[norbar]

-- There are 700,000 physicians in the United States.
-- There are 120,000 accidental deaths in the United States caused by physicians every year, and the accidental death percentage per physician is 0.171.
-- There are 80 million gun owners in the United States.
-- There are 1,500 accidental deaths from guns every year, regardless of age group, and the accidental death percentage per gun owner is 0.0000188.

Keep in mind these medical professionals are still trying to save lives.


Alcohol related deaths are tens times larger than violent crimes with firearms but nobody is demanding stricter alcohol laws......


Lest we even need to get into smoking, motor vehicle accidents, knives, or any other inanimate object that you can focus blame on.

Firearms are regulated more than any other object on the planet but yet people will still kill people or themselves with any means possible.

If you want numbers compare the number of guns per capita in us to any other country to gun related crime, murder and accidents.

For some reason US is the only country that doesn't change their gun laws after massacres. Every other civilized country in the world did that in similar cases. Guess what - it worked. Even the Swiss where EVERY man has to have a gun in his house has much less guns per capita than US. That's insane. Not to mention the Swiss are trained with guns and not so long ago they passed a law that without a special permit you may not carry a gun outside your house or have ammo for it. Strangely the number of gun deaths dropped.

Why is America the only country in the world who can't take example from other countries? Though I like the idea if something is a problem, you need to add more of it to solve the problem. Be it guns or market deregulation.

 

[SLOPE]

Dictators love gun control.

 

[gastro]

Hey einstein. Cars and knives help the economy and people's lives. Guns just shoot shlt. They are unique and wholly stand on their own. And unless you're one of the assholes that works for the NRA with their cheeks spread to whatever smith and wesson tells them, THEY DO NOT BENEFIT YOUR DAILY LIFE.

My freezers full of venison that will feed me and my family for the next nine months beg to differ.

It's not about guns, it's about preventing irresponsible people access to guns.

 

[Jm_]

Cars are way better for hunting than guns.

That and just digging a hole and putting a false-top on it with some bait on top.

I've never understood hunting.

 

[gonefirefightin]

Make something idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot

 

[Beef Supreme]

I grew up, and still have friends and family, in Tulare county and hadn't heard about that. Jesus......

Where? Camp Nelson is one of my favorite places on the planet. I also have some good friends from Springville.

 

[Pesqueeb]

Where? Camp Nelson is one of my favorite places on the planet. I also have some good friends from Springville.

I grew up in Three Rivers and went to high school in woodlake. The in-laws live in porterville now, just down the hill from springville and the reservation.

 

[gonefirefightin]

I have family in Tulare, Visalia and wood lake.

 

[Silver]

Why is America the only country in the world who can't take example from other countries? Though I like the idea if something is a problem, you need to add more of it to solve the problem. Be it guns or market deregulation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

American exceptionalism, baby!

 

[limitedslip]

In the 20th century you were ~25 times more likely to be killed by your own government than by homicide. Gun ownership is a deterrent to state violence. It's not always a very effective one, but it's the only real deterrent there is.

 

[AngryMetalsmith]

In the 20th century you were ~25 times more likely to be killed by your own government than by homicide. Gun ownership is a deterrent to state violence. It's not always a very effective one, but it's the only real deterrent there is.

Uhh...yeah, 'cause your pea shooter will surely put the fear into the state with their tanks and planes that shoot missiles and stuff.

 

[worship_mud]

I came to realize that, in essence, this is the way we in America want things to be. We want our freedom, and we want our firearms, and if we have to endure the occasional school shooting, so be it. A terrible shame, but hey — didn’t some guy in China just do the same thing with a knife?

gregory gibson, father of galen gibson (then 18), who was killed during a shooting rampage at Simon’s Rock College in western Massachusetts.

that's depressing...

 

[DaveW]

In the 20th century you were ~25 times more likely to be killed by your own government than by homicide. Gun ownership is a deterrent to state violence. It's not always a very effective one, but it's the only real deterrent there is.

Gun ownership is I doubt much very much of a deterrent to conscription...........

 

[limitedslip]

Uhh...yeah, 'cause your pea shooter will surely put the fear into the state with their tanks and planes that shoot missiles and stuff.

Not talking about fear. Even in just economic terms it would cost far more to 'round up undesirables' versus an armed populace compared to a unarmed populace. The costs would go up all over the board: an armored Humvee vs. an econoline van, tactical gear with body armor vs. a couple pistols, and trained soldiers willing to get shot at vs. cheap thugs. Probably 20x the cost just in money alone.

 

[norbar]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/14/nine-facts-about-guns-and-mass-shootings-in-the-united-states/

 

[kidwoo]

My freezers full of venison beg to differ.

Can I get a video of the venison begging to differ?


Your ability to archive meat is not what I'm talking about. I'd assume you know that but apparently not.

You even said it yourself

It's not about guns, it's about preventing irresponsible people access to guns.

Plenty of other places are proof of this to some degree. But it's different here. You and I know that.

Just keep in mind that every time you or someone you know who does nothing but hunt, speaks up against any kind of gun control just because you own one, you make it easier for this kind of thing to happen........again, and again, and again.

We don't need handguns in national parks, we don't need handguns in bars and we don't need them in schools for you to be able to hunt. And the answer is not more armed people. You know the difference right?

 

[H8R]

My freezers full of venison that will feed me and my family for the next nine months beg to differ.

It's not about guns, it's about preventing irresponsible people access to guns.

So if there were strict gun laws, you would an arguable case.


What about some doofus in the suburbs? What are they hunting?

 

[mattmatt86]

Just keep in mind that every time you or someone you know who does nothing but hunt, speaks up against any kind of gun control just because you own one, you make it easier for this kind of thing to happen........again, and again, and again.

This is probably the biggest problem with responsible gun owners, they feel like its a black and white issue. Can't you be pro hunting, pro sport shooting, pro legal gun ownership but also pro gun control? I'm Pro drinking but also Pro DUI enforcement.

 

[gastro]

This is probably the biggest problem with responsible gun owners, they feel like its a black and white issue. Can't you be pro hunting, pro sport shooting, pro legal gun ownership but also pro gun control?

Of course one can own guns and advocate gun control. I do. It seems more reasonable than the noises coming from the outer edge of the spectrum of opinion. Most responsible gun owners I know don't think it's a black and white issue. They couldn't care less about 50 round clips or teflon bullets, but they sure as hell don't want to have to give grandpa's 12 gauge to the government.

Doofuses (doofi?) from the suburbs hunt too, and support suffering rural economies in the process.

 

[norbar]

This is probably the biggest problem with responsible gun owners, they feel like its a black and white issue. Can't you be pro hunting, pro sport shooting, pro legal gun ownership but also pro gun control? I'm Pro drinking but also Pro DUI enforcement.

That's the thing. You can have a hunting license and a sports license in Poland. Yet the amount of guns is so small when someone threatens to use guns you can laught at him and claim he is full of **** there are so few gun owners here. Hell even when you look at gun stashes from police raids. The local mafia hub has probably less and worse weapons than a single gun enthusiast in the us.

 

[johnbryanpeters]

That's the thing. You can have a hunting license and a sports license in Poland. Yet the amount of guns is so small when someone threatens to use guns you can laught at him and claim he is full of **** there are so few gun owners here. Hell even when you look at gun stashes from police raids. The local mafia hub has probably less and worse weapons than a single gun enthusiast in the us.

Norbar, you need to visit Vermont. It's a very different world.

Stay with me a week, you'll hear gunfire. At night, during the day, whenever. Some of it's target practice, state police or ordinary folks. Some of it's hunting, some legal and some not. some are "enthusiasts", some aren't.

The gunfire is not threatening. it's just part of my world. What it isn't is gangs, psychos, or military contesting territory (some might be military training).

I have some friends who are "enthusiasts". in general I think they're insane but harmless. I sometimes talk weapons with them - hardware, methods, effectiveness.

The point? I have a hard time making the distinction between firearms and a mace or a poleaxe. Modern firearms are more efficient, but so what? They're a tool that can be used well or misused.

 

[kidwoo]

Norbar, you need to visit Vermont. It's a very different world.

Stay with me a week, you'll hear gunfire. At night, during the day, whenever. Some of it's target practice, state police or ordinary folks. Some of it's hunting, some legal and some not. some are "enthusiasts", some aren't.

The gunfire is not threatening. it's just part of my world. What it isn't is gangs, psychos, or military contesting territory (some might be military training).

I have some friends who are "enthusiasts". in general I think they're insane but harmless. I sometimes talk weapons with them - hardware, methods, effectiveness.

The point? I have a hard time making the distinction between firearms and a mace or a poleaxe. Modern firearms are more efficient, but so what? They're a tool that can be used well or misused.

The fact that you happen to be comfortable in your redneck environs doesn't mean you have a point.

Until you can distinguish between the national poleax or national mace association, the two high profile mace and poleax billion dollar lobby groups, you probably never will have a cogent point on this subject either.

Everyone who's ever not been harmless, was in fact harmless until they became harmless. But when someone flips out with mace or a poleax, funny youtube vids result, not a room full of dead people.

 

[kidwoo]

Most responsible gun owners I know don't think it's a black and white issue.

Then don't make overly simplistic statements like "it's not about guns"

Because very much of it IS exactly about guns. It's about military armament being readily available to joe schmoe. It's about huge clips and horrendously destructive projectiles being sold right next to them. None of which have a whole lot to do with the talking venison in your freezer. It's about a culture who's dumb enough to believe that the 2nd amendment gives them the right from gawd to own this ridiculous arsenal that's not going to do jack squat other than really fvck up one their neighbors one day.......certainly not keep the gubbamint at bay if they really really want to come git cha.

So yes, culture is a huge part of it. But when that culture is fabricated with guns as the icon, guns themselves are also very much so a part of it.

 

[syadasti]

In the 20th century you were ~25 times more likely to be killed by your own government than by homicide. Gun ownership is a deterrent to state violence. It's not always a very effective one, but it's the only real deterrent there is.

Gun control sure has ruined the safety the America used to enjoy when everyone was armed in the Old American West with weak state control:

The interval for all of southern and central California was between 60 and 70 per 100,000 adults per year—seven times the homicide rate in the United States today (and 28.7 standard deviations away)

To appreciate how violent the West was, we need to consider not only the annual homicide rate, but the risk of being murdered over time. For instance, the adult residents of Dodge City faced a homicide rate of at least 165 per 100,000 adults per year, meaning that 0.165 percent of the population was murdered each year—between a fifth and a tenth of a percent. That may sound small, but it is large to a criminologist or epidemiologist, because it means that an adult who lived in Dodge City from 1876 to 1885 faced at least a 1 in 61 chance of being murdered—1.65 percent of the population was murdered in those 10 years. An adult who lived in San Francisco, 1850-1865, faced at least a 1 in 203 chance of being murdered, and in the eight other counties in California that have been studied to date, at least a 1 in 72 chance. Even in Oregon, 1850-1865, which had the lowest minimum rate yet discovered in the American West (30 per 100,000 adults per year), an adult faced at least a 1 in 208 chance of being murdered.

P.S. Violent crime in America is at its lowest point in 50 years, but America needs more guns....

More guns make you less safe, there is no doubt in the numbers:

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/index.html

1. Where there are more guns there is more homicide (literature review).

Our review of the academic literature found that a broad array of evidence indicates that gun availability is a risk factor for homicide, both in the United States and across high-income countries. Case-control studies, ecological time-series and cross-sectional studies indicate that in homes, cities, states and regions in the US, where there are more guns, both men and women are at higher risk for homicide, particularly firearm homicide.

Hepburn, Lisa; Hemenway, David. Firearm availability and homicide: A review of the literature. Aggression and Violent Behavior: A Review Journal. 2004; 9:417-40.


2. Across high-income nations, more guns = more homicide.

We analyzed the relationship between homicide and gun availability using data from 26 developed countries from the early 1990s. We found that across developed countries, where guns are more available, there are more homicides. These results often hold even when the United States is excluded.

Hemenway, David; Miller, Matthew. Firearm availability and homicide rates across 26 high income countries. Journal of Trauma. 2000; 49:985-88.


3. Across states, more guns = more homicide

Using a validated proxy for firearm ownership, we analyzed the relationship between firearm availability and homicide across 50 states over a ten year period (1988-1997).

After controlling for poverty and urbanization, for every age group, people in states with many guns have elevated rates of homicide, particularly firearm homicide.

Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. Household firearm ownership levels and homicide rates across U.S. regions and states, 1988-1997. American Journal of Public Health. 2002: 92:1988-1993.


4. Across states, more guns = more homicide (2)

Using survey data on rates of household gun ownership, we examined the association between gun availability and homicide across states, 2001-2003. We found that states with higher levels of household gun ownership had higher rates of firearm homicide and overall homicide. This relationship held for both genders and all age groups, after accounting for rates of aggravated assault, robbery, unemployment, urbanization, alcohol consumption, and resource deprivation (e.g., poverty). There was no association between gun prevalence and non-firearm homicide.

Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. State-level homicide victimization rates in the U.S. in relation to survey measures of household firearm ownership, 2001-2003. Social Science and Medicine. 2007; 64:656-64.

Actual correlates of gun violence:

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/01/the-geography-of-gun-deaths/69354/

While the causes of individual acts of mass violence always differ, our analysis shows fatal gun violence is less likely to occur in richer states with more post-industrial knowledge economies, higher levels of college graduates, and tighter gun laws. Factors like drug use, stress levels, and mental illness are much less significant than might be assumed.

 

[MMike]

While I want to agree with you.....(about the "non threatening" part).

Back when I lioved in the stink-hole known as Seattle, one of the favourite riding spot, known as Exit 38 was also a favourite shooting spot. Redneck idiots would haul all manner of **** to shoot at. Washing machines, TV's, old cars,....and they would leave it there....along with a two inch layer of spent shell casings on the ground.

In general we stayed out of their way. They had their spot, we had ours. But one day, one little gang moved uphill, and were aiming differently......towards the trails. I doubt it was malicious. But you could tell these idiots were deficient a chromosome or two. We chose not to tempt fate an left.

My point being....you never know whence the gunfire came....or where it's going.

I just don;t get why shooting is entertaining.

And anyone who makes the "cars kill people too" argument can cram it up their ass. Cars are built primarily for transportation. Yes DUI's happen. But guns are purpose-built to harm/kill/maim. Having less oversight over guns that you do for cars is just idiotic.

Norbar, you need to visit Vermont. It's a very different world.

Stay with me a week, you'll hear gunfire. At night, during the day, whenever. Some of it's target practice, state police or ordinary folks. Some of it's hunting, some legal and some not. some are "enthusiasts", some aren't.

The gunfire is not threatening. it's just part of my world. What it isn't is gangs, psychos, or military contesting territory (some might be military training).

I have some friends who are "enthusiasts". in general I think they're insane but harmless. I sometimes talk weapons with them - hardware, methods, effectiveness.

The point? I have a hard time making the distinction between firearms and a mace or a poleaxe. Modern firearms are more efficient, but so what? They're a tool that can be used well or misused.

 

[TKCastle]

This tread is full of wow. From both sides.

 

[Silver]

You know, stoplights interfere with the right to peaceably assemble, and are unconstitutional.

 

[worship_mud]

i have a six year old daughter.
there is no law, constitutional right or anything else, that i would rate higher as her life and well-being. everyone who thinks different should maybe check his priorities in life.
it is absurd (for me as a european) to have a discussion on the right to own a automatic assault rifle.
i have no fcukin' idea what a normal, sane person would need an AR-15 for??? this is a serious question i found no answer to.

 

[valve bouncer]

Apparently this maniac's mum was a "prepper". Been watching this show a bit lately and have to say I'm not surprised. The guy who shot his thumb off was a classic. Completely and utterly nuts.

 

[norbar]

Norbar, you need to visit Vermont. It's a very different world.

Stay with me a week, you'll hear gunfire. At night, during the day, whenever. Some of it's target practice, state police or ordinary folks. Some of it's hunting, some legal and some not. some are "enthusiasts", some aren't.

The gunfire is not threatening. it's just part of my world. What it isn't is gangs, psychos, or military contesting territory (some might be military training).

I have some friends who are "enthusiasts". in general I think they're insane but harmless. I sometimes talk weapons with them - hardware, methods, effectiveness.

The point? I have a hard time making the distinction between firearms and a mace or a poleaxe. Modern firearms are more efficient, but so what? They're a tool that can be used well or misused.

You have to be pretty crafty to go on a killing spree with a mace. Hell even if you mean the medieval mace.

Also I don't claim guns are bad. I went to the shooting range, used to shoot for sport in high school. They are fun. That's why so many people are really against it. People don't want to loose their toys but it's a bit selfish to want your toys if it means people will get killed. I understand not all gun owners are nutjobs or dangerous but more guns = bigger chance of guns falling in the wrong hands, period. It's pure statistics.

 

[dan-o]

You have to be pretty crafty to go on a killing spree with a mace. Hell even if you mean the medieval mace.

This.

A guy in my town attacked his roommate with an axe this week.
While the guy apparently looked like he'd been attacked by a wood chipper, he will live to piss off his homicidal roommate another day.

 

[syadasti]

This.

A guy in my town attacked his roommate with an axe this week.
While the guy apparently looked like he'd been attacked by a wood chipper, he will live to piss off his homicidal roommate another day.

Same goes for the children who got attacked in China with a knife - their parents are far more fortunate...

 

[norbar]

You mean the one where over 20 children were stabbed and none died?

 

[TheTruth]

I've only read the first page of this thread, and it seems that the consensus is the government is to blame; specifically Obama. Obama could not be blamed for this or any level of government in the US because this tragedy was unforeseen and could not have been prevented by any person or law, but his mother. Adam Lanza had mental issues that his mother struggled with and she did try to seek help. She had no idea her son was going commit such an act of terrorism. http://gawker.com/5968818/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother Newton,

"Oh, and Fvck Obama for being such a pvssy. Today is exactly the right day to start talking about this like adults." If you haven't noticed, our culture practices grieving and mourning over deaths. To disturb that period with belligerent argument and speak of guns would be rather rude to those mourning and grieving. I understand your reactionary statements, but your suggestions would only make the victims feel worse. Have sympathy.

However, the debate over gun control is not one for me to take part in. But I will say that it was Adam Lanza's mother who Adam obtained the guns from. Will we start asking everyone who wants to buy a gun if they have crazy kin? Also, guns serve no other purpose than to kill whether it be animals or humans. Putting restrictions on guns won't make them any less dangerous.

Really what this debate comes down to is the culture of fear in America. Everyone is constantly afraid something terrible is going to happen, which is why we are debating over how many laws we can get the government to implement to make us safe. Laws are made by humans and they can be broken by humans. Laws are a mental concept. Tragedies like this will continue to happen in America because we are so afraid of reoccurring tragedies and crazy people see this as an opportunity to really scare everyone. So what do we do? In my opinion, we just continue to live our lives.

 

[profro]

The current US population is 311,591,917. You get that many idiots living together and some unfortunate, bad things will happen. In my opinion, the ONLY way to stop violence like this is for someone to cap the killer before he kills 20+ unarmed, innocent people. Just think about how this story would be if he was stopped before victim 1, or 2, or 3, or 4, or so on. Don't you think every single family would have wished someone there could have stopped this? I would.

 

[MMike]

 

[kidwoo]

Just think about how this story would be if he was stopped before victim 1, or 2, or 3, or 4, or so on. Don't you think every single family would have wished someone there could have stopped this? I would.

I also wish a magic dragon with a rainbow mane would give me a million dollars and a cigar made of powdered unicorn horns.

If you don't trust one idiot with multiple guns, why do you trust one or several more?

Even percentage-wise, civilized first world countries just do not have this problem. And the funny part is that some of them did.......like the UK and Australia. And guess what they did. And guess what the result has been. The good news is that you don't have to guess. You can actually just look at the result. And there IS a very positive result.

The US has almost as many firearms as people. And that's apparently not enough. So what's the magic number? 10 per person? 20? You honestly think that will IMPROVE the situation? Turning the entire country into a cartoon shoot'em up every time someone gets out of line is just insane. Who's the judge of 'out of line' at that point? The same idiots. It's gnarly enough watching the confusion that ensues at grocery store checkout lines and 4-way stop sign intersections. You want arm every one of those people?

I know, I know "it only takes one trained, 'right' person". We can't even do that now with the current lax ownership procedures and training available everywhere.