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Discussion in 'Politics & World News' started by Beef Supreme, Dec 14, 2012.
Damn science! You amazing!
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Really cool, but I'd hate to be the person to determine the spongeworthiness of a gunshot victim.
On a related note, think of the thousands of lives cut short by the gun lobby blocks on medical research, indirectly NRA members likely take more lives in the US annually than actual terrorists:
That interview was about the under reporting of the frequency of gun violence, how it effect mortality rates and clouds gun policy reform.
It has nothing to do with 'medical research' relating to treating gunshot wounds, which the military is constantly improving.
You are extremely naive or have cognitive dissonance.
Medical innovations don't solely come from sources like the military but currently do because of the gun lobby's efforts like the public funds research ban. Medical research includes lots of data based studies that save countless lives too, medical devices aren't the only realm of medical research.
The researcher notes it has directly resulted in poor health care policy as it relates to gunshot wounds and they've become more lethal. Gun lobbies are responsible for these deaths by blocking good health care policy:
LIVINGSTON: Well, if you have data and you have information, you may come up with bad public policy or good public policy, but at least you have data. In the absence of data, you have nothing but conjecture. It would be similar, in a way, if we had no data on the link between obesity and heart disease and diet or smoking and cancer. And imagine we had no data on that for 20 to 30 years. How would you create good health care policy?
Again, it relates to reporting of frequency of gun shot wounds.
Those skewed numbers (under reporting) diminish the severity of the gun problem and prevent accurate gun policy.
How would health care policy be changed in relation to this data?
It has nothing to do with the actual means by which gun shot victims are treated and he doesn't mention ERs being unprepared to treat those victims they do see.
Having that data would in no way change the mortality rate of people coming into an ER with a gunshot.
That guns have become more lethal is obvious and in plain sight.
Ammo manufacturers tout their products performance openly in hunting mags and their own websites.
The research ban has an effect on a wide range of life saving strategies including medical devices, ER techniques, and health care policy.
Health care policy itself does save indirectly via laws and public and private policies such as it has with regards to the tobacco industry.
Something being obvious doesn't quantify which is important in setting policies.
And I said it's related. It's part of the medical research field - I never said it's a medical device.
It's naive to think this gap being filled wouldn't save lives.
Show evidence of the ban on medical procedure/product research related to treating gun shots.
How specifically would having this data change health policy that effects the patient in the ER with a gunshot wound?
Do you always need to demean those who question your agenda with labels like naive, deluded etc?
Are you Trump's speech writer?
I said related to medical research, not specifically medical devices or gunshot wounds. You keep on attempting straw man.
Without public funding for independent research (ie not from gun makers or Bloomberg) you can't easily move the unbiased discussion in support or against a position.
Brings up an interesting point. The Military (which I was a member of) is restricted to the use of ball-ammunition for small-caliber weapons.
For civilians though, it's open-f*cking season.
good girl with a gun ...
Hundreds and hundreds of people with guns killing/injuring children, often by accident - details available for each incident:
That's so fucked up. Wasn't there a black woman who got 20 years or more for firing a warning shot at an attacker ?
Yep, and in florida the "shoot first" state. Sounds really unjust, until you find out she was black.
She was acquitted in an appeal though.
Oh, that's good.
I'm glad those bikers exercised their right to stand their ground. If I was a cop I sure wouldn't be trying to break out the taser or throw rocks at that point.
Neat. We usually carry tampons in the IFAKs for that purpose. Cool that it's hemostatically infused...
I hate to see how so many of you want to deprive us of our inate right to self preservation. Guns are a tool. People are the problem. Guns are not going anywhere.
People bent on destruction will find a way. If it's not some crazy asshole in a movie theater with an AR it's some whacko with a truck full of fertilizer. All of the mass shootings that make the news have one thing in common, they were all gun free zones as desnignated by law. But you guys think just one more law will stop these people. You do realize with very few exceptions most of these people stole the weapons they used or passed a back ground check. They usually broke a multitude of laws before their finger ever pulled the trigger.
The sad thing is guns aren't even our biggest problem in this country. Why aren't we talking about how there are no jobs. Manufacturing is being moved overseas. We have a joke of a leader who is giving this country away. I'm all for legal immigration but we've got to many people here already who aren't pulling they're own weight. This system will collapse because of this unless we stop bickering about a right guaranteed by the constitution that has a shot in hell of ever being meaningfully changed and start talking about how to fix our country.
I know I don't have the answer but the scary thing is neither does any of the current candidates running for POTUS.
On the topic of guns making suicide easier,
You need to actually read this thread before posting Fox News talking points. Yo shit is tired...
You don't have an 'inate right' to jack shit. You're just an animal on a planet floating in space. Like everything else in this world your right to anything is something you or someone else agreed on in order to do nothing more than create a civil society where people can live a decent life.
No one is trying to take your seatbelts, door locks, knee pads, helmets, health insurance, vitamins, or gym memberships away.
Because those things don't kill people. Yes people kill people. But in this country far too often with guns, not anything that in any meaningful way contributes to your self preservation. Try to fire off a few of your own brain cells next time before just regurgitating a bunch of zombie bullshit. You're so programmed you can't even stick to a topic without spewing all of the other affiliated nonsense you've been told to believe.
This is 'merica. You have the i(n)nate right to guns, (christian) religion.
Just don't expect no rights to no healthcare, food, shelter or hippy fucking education.
As a side note. Illegal immigration provides low cost labor that not only provides a direct cost savings to 'illegal employers' but depresses the cost of legal labor. That actually keeps jobs in the US. It is just a cost that is differed directly from the employers to society as a whole.
I've read enough pages of this thread and have seen the same talking points I see elsewhere.
Fox news is just as biased as CNN is just as Biased as insert your favorite MSM news source. I don't get my news from any of the above. I read all I can and form my own opinions based upon my beliefs.Also I'm not a member of the NRA. I personally believe we all have the right to do as we wish as long as it doesn't affect anybody else. I choose to protect myself and my family with firearms. I and most others like me aren't looking to play war or be hero's.
Yes I do have the innate right of self preservation as an animal on this planet. (you might want to look up what that means) Without that we would all just rollover and die while facing such adversity.
The things you listed above aren't rights protected by the Constitution. Therefore irrelevant to the conversation.
The founders wrote that document to "create a civil society where people can live a decent life." Unfortunately we live in a society where bad people do bad things.
I rarely get into these kinds of discussions because I know there is no way either of us are going to be swayed by the others argument. Please continue regurgitating your mother jones, gun violence prevention and vox talking points. I'll monitor this thread as I do all to gain more insight and gather more information. After all knowledge is the ultimate weapon.
Hey that overly simplistic world view sounds like my overly simplistic world view!
Your wish to maintain ready access to firearms while being closed to the idea that our society could do this better affects lots of peoples' right to not get shot. That's the disconnect that you seem incapable of breaching. No one gives a fuck what you're 'sources' are. Your ideas should stand on their own. And no 'but it's in the constitution!!' is not an idea.
Yeah you do that, agent Bauer. You git sum.
I just don't get constitutional worship. When it was written, the US was a pretty much an empty wilderness. Our cities would be considered little more than small towns, Philly was huge with 30,000 people, Boston with 15,000. Healthcare was application of leaches paid for with chickens. Times have changed yet we worship words when written have little context in modern times.
After WWI the technology of fully automatic weapons became available to the public. Criminals and psychotics adopted these weapons to commit crimes. Thomson machine guns were used in the St Valentines Massacre, BARs were used to completely overwhelm law enforcement in bank robberies. In 1934 these guns were severely restricted.
When was the last time you heard of a robbery or mass shooting that used a fully automatic weapon? I am sure they happen but it is fucking rare. Do these laws restrict your constitutional rights? I can tell you this, if the political landscape was the way it is now in 1934, you and your NRA brethren would be waiving your constitutional flag.
Technology has advanced, anyone can go to their local big box sporting goods store and pick up a rifle that is pretty much the same thing we hand out to our soldiers. Your run of the mill military issued rifle isn't even fully automatic anymore as they have determined that is more efficient at killing. These are not defensive weapons, these are offensive weapons.
Want to defend your home and family? Want to hunt? Shoot for sport?
Rarely can one thing do many things so well. But a fucking shotgun does all of those very well.
An AR? Not so much. Not unless when defending your home you don't mind sending rounds into your neighbors house, or you just hunt rats, or sport shooting consists of rapid fire shooting from the hip with a small boner.
Want to gun down as many people as possible, an AR will do just fine, probably better than the largely restricted BAR and Thomson.
Here's the problem right here: http://cnsnews.com/news/article/man-charged-fatal-shooting-released-after-posting-bond
Guy gets emotional because someone pepper sprays his dog, so he picks up a gun and shoots him dead. I don't care if the guy was doing it for fun or for self defense. Taking someone's life is not equal to your dog getting pepper-sprayed, but yet, this "hero" had access to guns. People aren't machines and they don't react like machines. If they "snap", bad things happen.The better the access to guns, the worse the outcome. Trying to predict that and evaluating each and every person to determine it would be a far more negative effect on your "rights" than simple making guns less accessible.
As long as you are a proper good guy, and are heavily armed at all times, you have nothing to worry about. The constitution does not guarantee you the right to not have to be constantly armed all the time. Might want to roll with kevlar while you are at it, kids too.
and some even shockingly right wing bullshit.
and even more bullshit.
Yet you post links from the National Review? A publication founded by a racist, right wing partisan hack for the express purpose of circle jerking other racist, right wing partisan hacks?
Wow and you think I'm delusional or disconnected. The Second Amendment is to protect the people from tyranny and for the people to be able to protect our country. It wasn't written for the police as your cartoon would have you believe.
Gun Control is keeping your barrel pointed in a safe direction and your finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot.
Like when Reagan was shot? Care to share examples? My liberal education failed to mention these grand moments in history.
So you actually believe that these guys:
Can protect you from these guys?
So to reply to the statement:
The answer is yes. Yes I do. Especially considering how hyperbolic and devoid of fact a lot of your statements seem to be.
It worked for the Confederates and the Whiskey Rebellion. Our militia done took care of dem boys.
I don't know, they seem like a pretty fair news source to me
National Review showing global temperatures, claims that there clearly is no increase.
The source, and a more statistically relevant representation of the same data
Yeah I'm with you, I think it's more the national guard that covered the nationwide concept.
Which is it? You don't even know how to spell the plural of hero. Talk about a one man army
You seem to be pretty content with the way this country works regarding firearms. Some of us think we could do better because the unique access available here has directly affected the lives (and ended a few) of people we know. That's really all it boils down to. It doesn't need to be so black and white. But a few truths are pretty obvious to a lot of people. First that these events are getting larger in scale, greater in frequency, and scenes like Sandy Hook (and yes a random Tuesday night in Chicago) are genuinely unacceptable. And second, that your idea of an armed citizenry STILL hasn't stopped them from happening, but rather continued defense of the systems we do have in place is actually making them worse.
Where was the tyrannical overthrow of all we hold dear during the assault weapons ban for instance?
You say you're not a member of the NRA but you've done a pretty good job carrying their message. Maybe you don't even realize it.
-Live in family members allowed to legally purchase firearms and bring them into homes of people with a demonstrated diagnosis of batshit crazy
-No fly list names being allowed to purchase firearms
-Federal funding ban on gun death statistics
-illegal to include marker compounds in gun powder and explosives so that weapons used in attacks can be traced
You think the above are all good ideas? You already mentioned gun free zones so I assume you're cool with guns allowed in bars, on trains and in national parks.
Ending all of those still would not affect your ability to own a weapon to defend your home. You know that right?
Its not just about defending my home but defending myself and my family everywhere.
I hate that episodes like SH San Bernadino and Aurora happen but to place the blame solely on guns and to think that somehow we as a country will become gun free is sorely misguided.
You are the only fvcking developed country on the planet who does not get it.
Availability leads to use.
It is too easy to pick up a weapon in a time of distress and use it on another or yourself.
As for the good guy, with a gun, how the fvck are they supposed to know who is good and not, just throw rounds down range, yea that works. Then when the cops show up, how are they to know who is good and not, they will take out anybody with a weapon in this instance. You are to fvcking stupid to own a weapon of such capability.
And as far as your second amendment - that was meant for an organization such as the State or National guard. Ignore the right loaded supreme court decision and actually read the founding documents / federalist papers and see what the framers of the country actually intended.
Get a fvcking real education. It will help not only you, but anybody you are in contact with, which at this point in time I feel very sorry for...
I'm not a US citizen and seem to know more about how your country was founded and supposed to work than quite a few of its own citizens. How fvcking sad is that?
Do you arm one of your family members to stand "watch" while the others sleep?
I got the first watch, get some sleep; will get you to spell me in 4 hours.