[profro]

Similar in costa rica. But I'm not going to pretend it's a similar or comparable environment.

The 'it's not the guns, it's the mentals' thing is so tired. What makes more sense to address? Something you can see with your own eyes, is manufactured by someone else and therefore needs to undergo an exchange for acquisition, or something invisible that happens alone, in quiet, and is often times completely unknown?

I don't know for sure, but making guns illegal isn't going to stop violence. Maybe it addresses some cases and maybe that good enough to make everyone feel happy they slapped a band-ade on it. However I want to believe there is a deeper problem in America that drives people to mass murder "soft targets". The recent incident with the rental truck and the Boston marathon still happened without assault weapons. There is fundamentally another issue here we haven't figured out yet. Maybe its too big to identify

 

[Pesqueeb]

Maybe if the state of Texas thinks you're too unstable for a handgun, maybe you shouldn't have access to a rifle?

 

[Adventurous]

Similar in costa rica. But I'm not going to pretend it's a similar or comparable environment.

The 'it's not the guns, it's the mentals' thing is so tired. What makes more sense to address? Something you can see with your own eyes, is manufactured by someone else and therefore needs to undergo an exchange for acquisition, or something invisible that happens alone, in quiet, and is often times completely unknown?

It's disingenuous to pin the blame on mental health while actively working to further undermine the mental health options available to those who need it. One would think if that's the real root cause, we'd have Republican lawmakers clamoring to solidify the healthcare system to prevent further tragedies.

Of course, we aren't all naive enough to think that only people suffering from mental health issues shoot and kill other. We can't legislate our way out of mass shootings, but we sure as hell can reduce the body count.

 

[jonKranked]

It's disingenuous to pin the blame on mental health while actively working to further undermine the mental health options available to those who need it. One would think if that's the real root cause, we'd have Republican lawmakers clamoring to solidify the healthcare system to prevent further tragedies.

Of course, we aren't all naive enough to think that only people suffering from mental health issues shoot and kill other. We can't legislate our way out of mass shootings, but we sure as hell can reduce the body count.

commie

 

[Pesqueeb]

It's disingenuous to pin the blame on mental health while actively working to further undermine the mental health options available to those who need it. One would think if that's the real root cause, we'd have Republican lawmakers clamoring to solidify the healthcare system to prevent further tragedies.

Of course, we aren't all naive enough to think that only people suffering from mental health issues shoot and kill other. We can't legislate our way out of mass shootings, but we sure as hell can reduce the body count.

Lest we forget, Dotard Don also went out of his way to make it easier for the unstable to buy weapons.

 

[Adventurous]

I don't know for sure, but making guns illegal isn't going to stop violence. Maybe it addresses some cases and maybe that good enough to make everyone feel happy they slapped a band-ade on it. However I want to believe there is a deeper problem in America that drives people to mass murder "soft targets". The recent incident with the rental truck and the Boston marathon still happened without assault weapons. There is fundamentally another issue here we haven't figured out yet. Maybe its too big to identify

Mass shootings occur at hundreds of times the rate of rental truck or pressure cooker bomb killings. To lump them all in together and say that there's nothing that can be done to prevent every tragedy is to deny that one instrument is responsible for vastly more casualties than the others.

We will never stop them, but we can reduce the body count. To not even try our hand at studying the problem and trying to solve it is to accept that we as a country will tolerate the mass murder of innocent people.

 

[Adventurous]

commie

Maybe I need to move to Flint so I can guzzle water in the hopes that more Freedom Foundation will course through my veins.

 

[JohnE]

I blame Obama. Had he the foresight to include phallic extensions and enhancements into the Obama-care legislation, the 2d Amendment assault rifle humpers would have their baser desires taken care of already.

I don't know for sure, but making guns illegal isn't going to stop violence. Maybe it addresses some cases and maybe that good enough to make everyone feel happy they slapped a band-ade on it. However I want to believe there is a deeper problem in America that drives people to mass murder "soft targets". The recent incident with the rental truck and the Boston marathon still happened without assault weapons. There is fundamentally another issue here we haven't figured out yet. Maybe its too big to identify

Its not curing violence that people are after...its stopping mass violence and the slaughter of innocents. The gun control/violence/health issues are in my mind, all interrelated. And the Right Wing supports it all. The NRA wants everyone to have a gun, because they profit from the widespread sale of guns and ammo. Then they buy off all the elected fools they can, so that no common sense legislation regarding guns have a hope in hell of passing. The Right wont allow universal health care, causing many with mental health issues to go un detected and summarily uncared for. We glorify weapons use and violence through Hollyweird and the media, and many who tote around weapons have truly no idea of the violence they embody and perpetuate...thinking one shot/one kill, never contemplating wounding people or that every round they fire has to land somewhere.

I carried weapons professionally for over 25 years. It is an awesome (Not awesome in a bitchincoolgnarly way...) and humbling experience. Too many people do not/will not appreciate this, claiming it is about Phreaduhmb™ and rights. It is not. The gun takes away your freedom, and they are allowing themselves to be enslaved by an inanimate object.

 

[JohnE]

Maybe if the state of Texas thinks you're too unstable for a handgun, maybe you shouldn't have access to a rifle?

Ya think? Hmmm...maybe, just maybe...

 

[kidwoo]

The recent incident with the rental truck and the Boston marathon still happened without assault weapons. There is fundamentally another issue here we haven't figured out yet. Maybe its too big to identify

Do some quick math on the body counts over the last 10 years of 'people shot by strangers' vs. terrorism trucks n' crockpot bombs. Also the frequency of events. One is a lot greater than the other.

None of them compare to something like 9/11 which involved no guns of course. But you know the difference? Shit damn well changed in how airplanes and passengers were handled after 9/11. This is no different and pretending it is somehow is just short sighted.

 

[JohnE]

We will never stop them, but we can reduce the body count. To not even try our hand at studying the problem and trying to solve it is to accept that we as a country will tolerate the mass murder of innocent people.

Wrong. Other countries have stopped mass shootings. Why cant we? I think the concept of 'murikan exceptionalism is to blame. Although many of the 2d Amendment crowd have no clue that this even exists, they have been brainwashed by it nonetheless. Because 'murika!

http://www.slate.com/blogs/crime/2012/12/16/gun_control_after_connecticut_shooting_could_australia_s_laws_provide_a.html

 

[JohnE]

 

[Pesqueeb]

they are allowing themselves to be enslaved by an inanimate object.

I know I'm repeating myself, but its idolatry. White Christians have found themselves a new golden calf to worship. No problem, however brown scary, cannot be solved by worshiping at the alter of the gun.

 

[Adventurous]

Wrong. Other countries have stopped mass shootings. Why cant we? I think the concept of 'murikan exceptionalism is to blame. Although many of the 2d Amendment crowd have no clue that this even exists, they have been brainwashed by it nonetheless. Because 'murika!

Because there's no way in our current environment that any sort of meaningful legislation would pass that could emulate the path taken by other countries that have been more successful at stopping mass shootings. Short of Obama coming out of retirement to take away everyone's guns, it's a problem that our society will, to some degree, always have. I wish it wasn't, but that's the reality of the matter.

 

[profro]

Do some quick math on the body counts over the last 10 years of 'people shot by strangers'

Are you suggesting that this is souly a function of the number of available assault weapons? I can't deny that they do certainly appear to be related. However, I also believe there is something else going on here. The elevated level of hate in this country just can't be ignored as part of the problem. It has been mentioned before that legislation can't fix that. If that was solved or at least understood, then perhaps there wouldn't be a need for someone to mass murder soft targets with a assault weapon.

I'm a life member of the NRA, but became so long before mass murder with assault weapons became popularized. When I was growing up, the NRA was an extension of hunter advocacy, education, and history. Perhaps its always been the way it is now. I don't know enough to say otherwise. But I have recently started to decline any further contributions to the NRA because of what it appears to be now-a-days. I just don't want to further to hate or the divide. I am so tired of it. But I am desperate to understand why it is the way it is, so I can avoid adding to it.

Just look at our country's leaders, they hate each other and its rubbing off on us. Or are we rubbing off on them? It appears to me that there used to be a level of decorum and respect that just doesn't exist anymore. Just look at our entertainment, leaders, work places these days.

 

[JohnE]

Because there's no way in our current environment that any sort of meaningful legislation would pass that could emulate the path taken by other countries that have been more successful at stopping mass shootings. Short of Obama coming out of retirement to take away everyone's guns, it's a problem that our society will, to some degree, always have. I wish it wasn't, but that's the reality of the matter.

Pickin up what you're puttin down...and yeah, unless we get a mulligan on the Constitution and/or the NRA dries up and blows away, we are fucked for our lifetimes at least.

 

[kidwoo]

Because there's no way in our current environment that any sort of meaningful legislation would pass

That's the rub. But that's not immoveable. We had an environment of slavery and british rule at one time. We also had an evironment of leaded gasoline at one time. Everyone seems to think this discussion involves solutions applicable to the next 5 minutes. That's certainly no case I'm trying to make. You're right, this won't happen in my lifetime, but if I had kids, I'd damn well give a shit about getting it started.

 

[dan-o]

My

Lest we forget, Dotard Don also went out of his way to make it easier for the unstable to buy weapons.

That had nothing to do with making it 'easier for the unstable to purchase weapons' and everything to do with eliminating a restriction applied without due process. For example, a triggered neighbor being uncomfortable with your owning firearms and reporting you to the police as unstable.

This is entirely in line with other mental health laws. One cannot be involuntarily admitted to a mental institution, even by family, a pysch or LE, without an independent evaluation by two objective parties agreeing with that judgement. We went thru this repeatedly with my brother and while a PITA, I've come to agree with this policy as it stops predatory actions.

RM TL/DR: dan-o thinks every psycho should be given an AR

 

[kidwoo]

Are you suggesting that this is souly a function of the number of available assault weapons?

Not only that but handguns too. Look at some numbers per capita over the last 10 (hell, even 5) years of gun ownership. It's fucking insane.....more guns than people in this country. And the majority of them owned by what's essentially hoarders. Kinda like mr. vegas a few weeks ago. Also someone the mental health approach would not have caught. But more oversight on some rifle purchases sure as hell would have.

Your concern about the level of hate in the world should make you even more weary of ubiquitous gun ownership. Think about it. That's even more reason to try and reduce what's out there and curb how easy it is to amass an arsenal.

The NRA these days is absolutely nothing like it was 20 years ago. It's a propaganda machine for gun sales now.

 

[JohnE]

Are you suggesting that this is souly a function of the number of available assault weapons? I can't deny that they do certainly appear to be related. However, I also believe there is something else going on here. The elevated level of hate in this country just can't be ignored as part of the problem. If that was solved or at least understood, then perhaps there wouldn't be a need for someone to mass murder soft targets with a assault weapon.

I'm a life member of the NRA, but became so long before mass murder with assault weapons became popularized. When I was growing up, the NRA was an extension of hunter advocacy, education, and history. Perhaps its always been the way it is now. I don't know enough to say otherwise. But I have recently started to decline any further contributions to the NRA because of what it appears to be now-a-days. I just don't want to further to hate or the divide. I am so tired of it. But I am desperate to understand why it is the way it is, so I can avoid adding to it.

The NRA left all reason behind about 25 years ago when their safe/sane/competent shooting sports mentality went the way of the dodo bird and they started breathing through the mouth and seeing threats around every corner. Then came politicization and indoctrination into the gun culture which all to many of the rank and file members embraced wholly and unquestioningly. After that came the wholesale purchase of what was once a decent group dedicated to a safe and worthwhile cause by the gun industry.
Where they used to advocate for the shooters, now they advocate for the weapons.

 

[jonKranked]

The NRA left all reason behind about 25 years ago when their safe/sane/competent shooting sports mentality went the way of the dodo bird and they started breathing through the mouth and seeing threats around every corner. Then came politicization and indoctrination into the gun culture which all to many of the rank and file members embraced wholly and unquestioningly. After that came the wholesale purchase of what was once a decent group dedicated to a safe and worthwhile cause by the gun industry.
Where they used to advocate for the shooters, now they advocate for the weapons manufacturers.

fixed one critical omission.

 

[Pesqueeb]

My


That had nothing to do with making it 'easier for the unstable to purchase weapons' and everything to do with eliminating a restriction applied without due process. For example, a triggered neighbor being uncomfortable with your owning firearms and reporting you to the police as unstable.

This is entirely in line with other mental health laws. One cannot be involuntarily admitted to a mental institution, even by family, a pysch or LE, without an independent evaluation by two objective parties agreeing with that judgement. We went thru this repeatedly with my brother and while a PITA, I've come to agree with this policy as it stops predatory actions.

RM TL/DR: dan-o thinks every psycho should be given an AR

"The rule would only “impact a person if he or she has been determined to be so severely impaired by a mental condition that he or she is unable to manage his or her own benefits, in which case, he or she is already prohibited from purchasing or possessing guns,” Lindsay Nichols, senior attorney at the Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence, said in congressional testimony in February. “The new rule will simply prevent this person from passing a gun purchaser background check only until after an evaluation of their specific capacity to take on the responsibilities of gun ownership.”"

 

[jonKranked]

The NRA these days is absolutely nothing like it was 20 years ago. It's a propaganda machine for gun sales now.

and lobbying.

 

[kidwoo]

Those fuckers used to call me, without fail within 3 days every time I'd buy something at cabelas that could even remotely be related to firearms.

All kinds of 'you don't want the government to take your firearms do you?, we work to protect your freedom and liberty you know' bullshit.

Total fear based appeals.

 

[jonKranked]

Those fuckers used to call me, without fail within 3 days every time I'd buy something at cabelas that could even remotely be related to firearms.

All kinds of 'you don't want the government to take your firearms do you?, we work to protect your freedom and liberty you know' bullshit.

Total fear based appeals.

"he bought beef jerkey and some tighty whiteys. give 'em a ring"

 

[Jm_]

"he bought beef jerkey and some tighty real-trees give 'em a ring"

FTFY.

 

[jonKranked]

FTFY.

somehow i'm confident those actually exist.

 

[jonKranked]

 

[jonKranked]

gives new meaning to the phrase "getting lost in the bush"

 

[Adventurous]

gives new meaning to the phrase "getting lost in the bush"

Skip wiping and you'll have DIY camo.

 

[kidwoo]

be right back............

 

[dan-o]

"The rule would only “impact a person if he or she has been determined to be so severely impaired by a mental condition that he or she is unable to manage his or her own benefits, in which case, he or she is already prohibited from purchasing or possessing guns,” Lindsay Nichols, senior attorney at the Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence, said in congressional testimony in February. “The new rule will simply prevent this person from passing a gun purchaser background check only until after an evaluation of their specific capacity to take on the responsibilities of gun ownership.”"

Interestingly, the rule had opponents across a wide spectrum. Both the National Rifle Association and the American Civil Liberties Union spoke out against it.
The ACLU, which advocates for people with mental health struggles, said the rule reinforced a stereotype that people with mental disabilities are violent. The organization argued in a letter to members of Congress that there's no data to support a connection between receiving disability benefits and a propensity toward gun violence.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/28/politics/guns-mental-health-rule/index.html

It was feel good legislation passed in December so Obama could say he did something about guns. Seeing how it hadn't even gone into effect whether it would've made a difference is unknown.

FWIW, to get my CC/high capacity firearms permit here in MA I needed to do the following: interview at local PD, have chief sign off on application and 'suitability', state and FBI background check, state and federal mental health background check, training at approved facility and have all of that reviewed by the state Firearms Review Board. Took about 3mos.

We can do personal in-state sales to other permit holders but all weapons transfers are required to be registered with state. Possession of even a spent shell casing ('ammunition component') is a felony for non permit holders. Strict storage laws for homes, transport etc.

Personally I think that's excessive but I'll grudgingly play along. That said, once I've jumped through those hoops I have little patience with others telling me what and how many guns I can own.

 

[jonKranked]

Interestingly, the rule had opponents across a wide spectrum. Both the National Rifle Association and the American Civil Liberties Union spoke out against it.
The ACLU, which advocates for people with mental health struggles, said the rule reinforced a stereotype that people with mental disabilities are violent. The organization argued in a letter to members of Congress that there's no data to support a connection between receiving disability benefits and a propensity toward gun violence.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/28/politics/guns-mental-health-rule/index.html

It was feel good legislation passed in December so Obama could say he did something about guns. Seeing how it hadn't even gone into effect whether it would've made a difference is unknown.

FWIW, to get my CC/high capacity firearms permit here in MA I needed to do the following: interview at local PD, have chief sign off on application and 'suitability', state and FBI background check, state and federal mental health background check, training at approved facility and have all of that reviewed by the state Firearms Review Board. Took about 3mos.

We can do personal in-state sales to other permit holders but all weapons transfers are required to be registered with state. Possession of even a spent shell casing ('ammunition component') is a felony for non permit holders. Strict storage laws for homes, transport etc.

Personally I think that's excessive but I'll grudgingly play along. That said, once I've jumped through those hoops I have little patience with others telling me what and how many guns I can own.

i have a sorta distant cousin who is bipolar (ran in that part of the family). dude is incarcerated rest of his life because when he found out his girlfriend had gotten pregnant and secretly had an abortion, he went off the deep end, shot and killed her 12 year old son.

 

[kidwoo]

Personally I think that's excessive but I'll grudgingly play along. That said, once I've jumped through those hoops I have little patience with others telling me what and how many guns I can own.

And the rest of us have little patience with those who fail to see the connection or lack thereof between their own gun stances/situations and thousands of people getting shot.

You cool with those standards in MA being nationalized? Cuz they aren't applicable in Texas, Nevada, or Utah. And those three states are where some folks that shot a bunch of people armed up recently.

 

[AngryMetalsmith]

Yes, we do have a severe mental health issue in this country. We have an absolutely appalling obsession with guns. Guns have one purpose only, and that is to kill. Every time a mass shooting occurs, sales of the weapon used skyrocket. I cannot for the life of me understand why some people feel the need to posses tools of death and destruction, then bitch and moan that the government is going to take away their precious firearms.

After Sandy Hook we as a country did nothing. A group of GOP congressmen were shot while playing softball, and nothing was done. Not even by the congressman who nearly lost his life.

But saying this is just a mental health issue and not a gun issue is some NRA driven bullshit.

Sane people (hunters excluded) do not need firearms, period. I honestly think there is something mentally wrong with anyone who is obsessed with owning guns.

 

[jonKranked]

Yes, we do have a severe mental health issue in this country. We have an absolutely appalling obsession with guns. Guns have one purpose only, and that is to kill. Every time a mass shooting occurs, sales of the weapon used skyrocket. I cannot for the life of me understand why some people feel the need to posses tools of death and destruction, then bitch and moan that the government is going to take away their precious firearms.

After Sandy Hook we as a country did nothing. A group of GOP congressmen were shot while playing softball, and nothing was done. Not even by the congressman who nearly lost his life.

But saying this is just a mental health issue and not a gun issue is some NRA driven bullshit.

Sane people (hunters excluded) do not need firearms, period. I honestly think there is something mentally wrong with anyone who is obsessed with owning guns.

they are pretty darn fun to shoot, but rarely do you hear that.

 

[dan-o]

And the rest of us have little patience with those who fail to see the connection or lack thereof between their own gun stances/situations and thousands of people getting shot.

You cool with those standards in MA being nationalized? Cuz they aren't applicable in Texas, Nevada, or Utah. And those three states are where some folks that shot a bunch of people armed up recently.

Am I cool with it? No, but I would support it in favor of eliminating personal firearms ownership.

VT, NH and ME are constitutional carry states with very low gun violence and high ownership rates. It's not black and white.

I'm not a 2a frother nor did I vote for trump. I am an NRA member (have been since I learned to shoot 40+yrs ago). I also support our state organizations who fight for our rights in this decidedly anti gun state.

I'm just as disgusted as you by the violence in this country, gun or otherwise. I won't, however, subscribe to the belief that my firearm ownership makes me responsible for that violence.

 

[Pesqueeb]

I am an NRA member

I won't, however, subscribe to the belief that my firearm ownership makes me responsible for that violence.

Pick one.

 

[kidwoo]

I'm just as disgusted as you by the violence in this country, gun or otherwise. I won't, however, subscribe to the belief that my firearm ownership makes me responsible for that violence.

Your firearm ownership doesn't make you responsible for that violence. It's your complacency in law because of your ownership that makes you partly responsible for not improving the situation however. The two don't have to go hand in hand. There can be a very reasonable disconnect there, especially when it comes to supporting the NRA.

Where they stand on bump stock regulation now? They publicly supported it and now privately oppose it. Yes that's happening. They're fucking assholes who realized years ago that always framing things in terms of your freedom makes them shit tons of money.


So what is it about guns and freedom (serious question)? Do you support a lobbying organization that fights the TSA's right to grab your junk and take your toothpaste? That's kind of an infringement on freedom. But it's only when it comes to guns does that get framed that way. Speed limits.....tax laws........none if it gets framed in terms of infringing on your freedom. That's the NRA at work. Making money for their manufacturers. They don't give a flying fuck about your freedom. They just care about convincing you that that's what it's about. They also don't give a shit about gun safety. Because they make more money by making it easier to buy.

 

[JohnE]

The Nuremburg defense/pleading ignorance did not absolve the Nazis of their crimes nor does it absolve NRA members of theirs. You aid and abet the gun lobby via your support of the NRA, and they are directly responsible for the slaughters going on in this country via their looking the other way when lead starts to fly, burying their heads in the piles of money generated by the blood with which our streets area wash with. The NRA is to blame for this. Period. And if you support them, then you share in that blame. Period. Full stop.