[jonKranked]

Would you trade national CCW reciprocity for it? Abolishment of state specific regulations in favor of national laws (magazine capacity, silencers etc?)

We're at zero compromise on both sides currently so something's got to give in both directions.

i'm cool with compromise for sure, that's how anythings gonna get done. i agree the biggest issue on this topic right now is that both sides are at an "all or nothing" stalemate.

not sure if the right (who tend to be pro states rights vs fed) would be OK with nat'l laws, but in this subject in particular the state(s) with the loosest laws are the weakest link, so to speak.

profro touched on something important earlier - one of the biggest problems i see right now is just a general lack of respect across the board. if someone has a different opinion than you, boom they're automatically your enemy and not worthy of respect.

 

[dan-o]

Three of the biggest conviction rates are child sex offenses...interesting. My biggest ? is why publish something this specific? Seems as if they are trying to justify something. Publishing crime stats is a public service, but to pigeonhole it is such a way seems biased. Almost like publishing crimes stats involving illegal aliens.

Shithead from the church shooting would not even have had a gun if some AF/OSI agent at Holloman had done their fucking job.

You think it's odd that law enforcement tracks the behavior of those issued a permit to carry? Hard to evaluate your vetting processes with no data.

We're not allowed to acknowledge illegal immigrants in MA, criminal or otherwise.

 

[dan-o]

i'm cool with compromise for sure, that's how anythings gonna get done. i agree the biggest issue on this topic right now is that both sides are at an "all or nothing" stalemate.

not sure if the right (who tend to be pro states rights vs fed) would be OK with nat'l laws, but in this subject in particular the state(s) with the loosest laws are the weakest link, so to speak.

profro touched on something important earlier - one of the biggest problems i see right now is just a general lack of respect across the board. if someone has a different opinion than you, boom they're automatically your enemy and not worthy of respect.

Interestingly enough the states I see enraged are the states with the most restrictive laws, all of which exceed what any compromise would result in. MA, NY, NJ, MD and CA, none of which I'd call strongholds of the Right.

But yes, the 3%er stacking canned goods in his bunker will go off the rails.

Profro is on point with his observation. This thread is a perfect example of it. Trumps narcissism barely registers above that of the general population.

 

[stevew]

We're not allowed to acknowledge illegal immigrants in MA, criminal or otherwise.

because calling them illegal is mean.

 

[stevew]

compromise.......respect

two words that have no place in modern politics anymore.

 

[jonKranked]

"thanks to a law called the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act, you have no legal remedy if you are hurt by a gun. In passing that law in 2005, Congress granted gun dealers and manufacturers legal immunity in all 50 states, the District of Columbia, and every U.S. territory. No other industry receives this privilege: Firearms are the only consumer products that receive federal immunity from tort liability."

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2017/11/a_special_tax_on_the_firearm_industry_is_the_only_way_to_make_victims_of.html

 

[slyfink]

The state of MA has subjected me to the strictest gun laws in the nation, which I dutifully comply with. I've stated I would support those laws going national in an effort to maintain my right to own firearms.

That's all that needs to be said. in most other countries in the world that don't have daily mass shootings, this is the case. In Canada, we can own guns. I think it's not even that hard to own hunting rifles. Do a gun-safety course, get a gun license, get a hunting license I think are the only steps. It gets more complicated if you move away from hunting gear. We don't have very many mass shootings.

Anyways, this conversation has evolved since I started that post, and was interrupted. On the point of respecting the other sides view, as an outside observer, I question how that would work. To be honest, from the outside, the gun-rights people seem insane. People are dying by the hundreds (thousands?) every year, from gun shots. Mass murders, regular murders, suicide, accidents. The only thing differentiating you guys from other industrialized, democratic societies, are the number of guns in your country. and the number of people dying as a result of being shot. saying that your right to own a gun trumps the right of people to be alive... just doesn't come off as sounding very sane. to an outside observer. and I can imagine it's very hard to want to respect someone who values their guns more than another persons life. So yeah, I can see how it would be hard to have a civilized debate on that point.

I have a cousin who lives in AZ. He was arrested and spent time in Arpaio's tent jails for chasing down his ex-wife's drug dealer and shooting at him. I don't think he killed anyone, but he did shoot at someone out of a moving car (at least that's what I've been told). He's an engineer, and on disability as a result of a degenerative disease. He can't work anymore. So now, in his spare time he makes high-precision rifle parts that he sells to gun collectors and enthusiasts. This situation to me is incomprehensible for a few reasons. A) if he hadn't had easy access to a gun in the first place, he likely wouldn't have gone to jail. B) how can someone who's been to jail for a gun-related offense make and sell guns? and C) how can my cousin not see all of this? He's my cousin, he has a good heart, he's been through a lot, and I love him. But it still makes no sense to me, and I have a hard time respecting the argument. Maybe I can respect the people, but not the argument.

 

[jonKranked]

saying that your right to own a gun trumps the right of people to be alive... just doesn't come off as sounding very sane

not to mention wrong (from an americana historical perspective).

 

[dan-o]

I can imagine it's very hard to want to respect someone who values their guns more than another persons life. /QUOTE]


That's the rub, right?
I hold life in the highest regard and can't fathom using them unless the last resort.
Beyond protecting my family or a close friend I'd be hard pressed to draw on somebody.

Your cousins isn't selling firearms, likely just components.

What are your thoughts on his crime?
I took a friends heroin dealer to the woodshed but there were no guns involved.

 

[Pesqueeb]

right now i'd be happy with some incremental improvements. let's start with shoring up the background check process and close the trade show loophole.

That's already been tried.

and no shits were given.

On the point of respecting the other sides view, as an outside observer, I question how that would work. To be honest, from the outside, the gun-rights people seem insane.

It's pretty crazy from the inside too.

I find the notion that there is a "debate" about guns in this country to be one of the most asinine and specious ideas still floating about. There is no debate. There is no "middle ground". There is no compromise. The gun nuts won, it's fucking over. Not a single piece of legislation passes any more. The NRA crushes even the most benign talk of any sort of restrictions. Shoot up a church? Nothing will happen. Shoot up a concert? Nothing will happen. Shoot up a college campus? Nothing will happen. Shoot up a night club? Nothing will happen. Shoot up a class full of six year olds? NOTHING FUCKING HAPPENS. Sanity isn't just off the table, it left the building, went to the airport, and left the fucking time zone. We live in a country where even when/if federal agencies are not strictly prohibited from studying gun violence, they live in constant fear of the repercussions. Not that it matters. You can't bring science or facts to debate religious extremists, and that's exactly what American gun culture is. It is a violent death cult, outside of reason or fact, whose blood thirsty, gun-blue god, will never be appeased, no matter how many we sacrifice upon it's alter.

 

[Pesqueeb]

Fun fact: I'll drive by the second gun store mentioned in this story on my way to pick up my kid from school today.

 

[jonKranked]

That's already been tried.

and no shits were given.



It's pretty crazy from the inside too.

I find the notion that there is a "debate" about guns in this country to be one of the most asinine and specious ideas still floating about. There is no debate. There is no "middle ground". There is no compromise. The gun nuts won, it's fucking over. Not a single piece of legislation passes any more. The NRA crushes even the most benign talk of any sort of restrictions. Shoot up a church? Nothing will happen. Shoot up a concert? Nothing will happen. Shoot up a college campus? Nothing will happen. Shoot up a night club? Nothing will happen. Shoot up a class full of six year olds? NOTHING FUCKING HAPPENS. Sanity isn't just off the table, it left the building, went to the airport, and left the fucking time zone. We live in a country where even when/if federal agencies are not strictly prohibited from studying gun violence, they live in constant fear of the repercussions. Not that it matters. You can't bring science or facts to debate religious extremists, and that's exactly what American gun culture is. It is a violent death cult, outside of reason or fact, whose blood thirsty, gun-blue god, will never be appeased, no matter how many we sacrifice upon it's alter.

yea but mah constitooshun!

 

[Westy]

I think this makes "thoughts and prayers" the official GOP solution to gun violence

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/paul-ryan-mass-shooting-prayer_us_5a014f1fe4b07eb51181be67?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009

 

[Pesqueeb]

I think this makes "thoughts and prayers" the official GOP solution to gun violence

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/paul-ryan-mass-shooting-prayer_us_5a014f1fe4b07eb51181be67?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009

I sure Ryan can point to a specific scientific study to back up his claim?

 

[mykel]

yea but mah constitooshun!

Yea, that is another thing.
What is up with the worship of a piece of paper?
Don't get me wrong, it a VERY important document, not just to the US, but also the world, think Magna Carta level.
However, it was written by mortal men, not some "godz". It is fallible, but the doodz that wrote it got something correct - a mechanism that allows it to change to reflect the times and advancement(?) of society. That fact is illustrated by the 2 or 3 amendments that have been made over the intervening years.

So why is it treated as infallible set in stone and worshiped like it was brought to the masses by jeebus hisself riding a T-rex flanked by screaming eagles?

 

[Westy]

I sure Ryan can point to a specific scientific study to back up his claim?

They should also just pray for tax cuts and a booming coal industry.

 

[dan-o]

That's already been tried.

and no shits were given.



It's pretty crazy from the inside too.

I find the notion that there is a "debate" about guns in this country to be one of the most asinine and specious ideas still floating about. There is no debate. There is no "middle ground". There is no compromise. The gun nuts won, it's fucking over. Not a single piece of legislation passes any more. The NRA crushes even the most benign talk of any sort of restrictions. Shoot up a church? Nothing will happen. Shoot up a concert? Nothing will happen. Shoot up a college campus? Nothing will happen. Shoot up a night club? Nothing will happen. Shoot up a class full of six year olds? NOTHING FUCKING HAPPENS. Sanity isn't just off the table, it left the building, went to the airport, and left the fucking time zone. We live in a country where even when/if federal agencies are not strictly prohibited from studying gun violence, they live in constant fear of the repercussions. Not that it matters. You can't bring science or facts to debate religious extremists, and that's exactly what American gun culture is. It is a violent death cult, outside of reason or fact, whose blood thirsty, gun-blue god, will never be appeased, no matter how many we sacrifice upon it's alter.

Wow.
I'm not sure you'd be eligible for a MA carry permit due to suitability concerns.
At least you're keeping an open mind

 

[Pesqueeb]

Wow.
I'm not sure you'd be eligible for a MA carry permit due to suitability concerns.
At least you're keeping an open mind

View attachment 126998

Speaking of specious.

 

[mykel]

I too am outside the wall. There is an audio forum that I belong to based in Europe. There are members from around the world, so it is not Eurocentric. The gun issue comes up from time to time, and everybody pretty much agrees with Pesqueeb's view. The Americans are asked about it and for the most part they can not offer any good defense of the status quo, as they are just as baffled.

The rest of the world just looks on and goes WTF?!?!

 

[JohnE]

You think it's odd that law enforcement tracks the behavior of those issued a permit to carry? Hard to evaluate your vetting processes with no data.

We're not allowed to acknowledge illegal immigrants in MA, criminal or otherwise.

Do they track similar info for other issued licenses? Drivers licenses, liquor, business, pet licenses etc? Data such as this is good, if it is properly used...

 

[Pesqueeb]

The Americans are asked about it and for the most part they can not offer any good defense of the status quo

As witnessed by @dan-o's incredibly well thought out and sincerely adult like personal attack. When facts aren't on your side, there is always ad-hominem.

 

[Pesqueeb]

https://twitter.com/repdinatitus/status/927973090201567232

 

[dan-o]

As witnessed by @dan-o's incredibly well thought out and sincerely adult like personal attack. When facts aren't on your side, there is always ad-hominem.

Riiiiiight.
In all my years on RM I don't recall ever having my character attacked.

Yet within the last 24hrs I've been compared to Nazi leadership, insane and a member of a death cult bent on murdering others.

But I'm attacking others based on 'not having facts on my side'.

 

[mykel]

... within the last 24hrs I've been compared to Nazi leadership, insane and a member of a death cult bent on murdering others.

But I'm attacking others based on 'not having facts on my side'.

Are you new here?
Welcome to teh monkey.

 

[kidwoo]

Riiiiiight.
In all my years on RM I don't recall ever having my character attacked.

Yet within the last 24hrs I've been compared to Nazi leadership, insane and a member of a death cult bent on murdering others.

But I'm attacking others based on 'not having facts on my side'.

Pipe down Stalin.

 

[Pesqueeb]

KALI MA!!!!

In the weeks after Representative Charlie Dent signed on to legislation that would have banned bump stocks following the massacre in Las Vegas, the moderate Pennsylvania Republican was “besieged” by responses from his constituents.

These were not thank-you calls.

The vast majority of people contacting Dent were angry that he had endorsed even a modest restriction on the use of guns,
<snip>
“There’s a certain very vocal constituency of individuals who are convinced that at any moment, their gun is going to be ripped away from their hands by the federal government,” said Kris Brown, the co-president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. “They will call, and they’ll call about just about anything that the NRA gets them worked up about.”

 

[jonKranked]

https://twitter.com/repdinatitus/status/927973090201567232

 

[jonKranked]

searching for that image brought me to this

https://www.thoughtsandprayersthegame.com/

 

[Adventurous]

Riiiiiight.
In all my years on RM I don't recall ever having my character attacked.

Yet within the last 24hrs I've been compared to Nazi leadership, insane and a member of a death cult bent on murdering others.

But I'm attacking others based on 'not having facts on my side'.

Could be worse, someone could accuse you of being a Juggalo.

In all seriousness, one thing I think we can all agree on, as demonstrated by this recent mass shooting in Texas and regardless of what gun control measures are put in place, none of them will be effective if the system for enforcing the current laws isn't robust enough to ensure that those who should be flagged are flagged.

 

[jonKranked]

KALI MA!!!!

at this point i wonder if the NRA is a terrorist organization....

 

[jimmydean]

none of them will be effective if the system for enforcing the current laws isn't robust enough to ensure that those who should be flagged are flagged.

The fact that this guy should not have been allowed to buy one and was able to because he answered "No" to the question "have you been convicted of a crime that should not allow you to own a gun?" You would THINK the BACKGROUND CHECK might ACTUALLY CHECK SOMEONES BACKGROUND.

 

[dan-o]

The fact that this guy should not have been allowed to buy one and was able to because he answered "No" to the question "have you been convicted of a crime that should not allow you to own a gun?" You would THINK the BACKGROUND CHECK might ACTUALLY CHECK SOMEONES BACKGROUND.

His crimes were never submitted to the NICS system.

 

[jimmydean]

His crimes were never submitted to the NICS system.

Fuuuuuuuu.

USA Today reports that "the Air Force failed to enter Kelley's conviction in the National Crime Information Center database." The paper adds that "the Air Force was required to provide the information to the database because Kelley was convicted of a domestic assault and would not have been able to purchase a gun legally."

 

[Westy]

 

[Westy]

 

[JohnE]

Fuuuuuuuu.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_Violence_Offender_Gun_Ban .

 

[Pesqueeb]

His crimes were never submitted to the NICS system.

Fuuuuuuuu.

There was a report on NPR I heard on the way into work this morning about the the reporting system of the military, or more exactly, the complete lack thereof. Like, the rates the DOD reports domestic violence or crimes, other than "dishonorable discharge" to the background database are extremely questionable. Seems like a pretty big ball to drop, and its apparently been happening for quite sometime.

No transcript up yet.

 

[JohnE]

https://splinternews.com/every-member-of-congress-who-took-money-from-the-nra-an-1819059582

 

[JohnE]

There was a report in NPR I heard on the way into work this morning about the the reporting system of the military, or more exactly, the complete lack thereof. Like, the rates the DOD reports domestic violence or crimes, other than "dishonorable discharge" to the background database are extremely questionable. Seems like a pretty big ball to drop, and its apparently been happening for quite sometime.

No transcript up yet.

There is also a very damning cultural attitude towards first level, localized reporting. As the Lautenberg Act prohibits the arming of anyone convicted of domestic violence, within the military and Law Enforcement worlds many spouses fail to report ANY act of domestic violence, fearing that they would be ruining their spouses career...

 

[jimmydean]

https://splinternews.com/every-member-of-congress-who-took-money-from-the-nra-an-1819059582

So for about $10k or less, you too can buy some votes. Wow, just wow.

I remember t recruit that had a domestic charge prior to joining and they were trying to get a waiver because it is tough to be infantry if you can't hold or carry a gun.