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kidwoo

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guy needs medical help. won't get it cause there is nothing in place to help him. countdown to him making headline news in.... 3. 2....?

http://komonews.com/news/local/man-arrested-after-threats-to-kill-you-all-to-university-district-church-ar-15-seized
That's the problem with the argument that the real reason behind America's shooting problem is the mental health aspect, and only the mental health aspect. Of course it's part of it, but it's not a useful or realistic deflection. While that guy should (and did) have his firearm confiscated, you can't adopt a wholehearted reliance on arresting people for what amounts to thought crimes. You ever read tale of two cities?

On a side note. We've got some people old enough to remember here..... How may mass shootings have involved one of the exact weapons that were barred from sale in the assault weapons ban? And how many mass shootings were occurring previous to? I'm well aware that functionally speaking there are other semi auto .22 variants but doesn't it sure seem like every single one of these fucks has an AR-15? There's a pretty strong case there for causation. No one can argue with a straight face that the expiration of the ban hasn't led to an absurd amount of those things in circulation. All the gunsplainers can rant and rave about congress only trying to ban 'scary looking' guns, but let's be honest. It's pretty obvious that's what these mouth breathing dipshits shooting up the place are drawn to.
 
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AngryMetalsmith

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That's the problem with the argument that the real reason behind America's shooting problem is the mental health aspect, and only the mental health aspect. Of course it's part of it, but it's not a useful or realistic deflection. While that guy should (and did) have his firearm confiscated, you can't adopt a wholehearted reliance on arresting people for what amounts to thought crimes. You ever read tale of two cities?

On a side note. We've got some people old enough to remember here..... How may mass shootings have involved one of the exact weapons that were barred from sale in the assault weapons ban? And how many mass shootings were occurring previous to? I'm well aware that functionally speaking there are other semi auto .22 variants but doesn't it sure seem like every single one of these fucks has an AR-15? There's a pretty strong case there for causation. No one can argue with a straight face that the expiration of the ban hasn't led to an absurd amount of those things in circulation. All the gunsplainers can rant and rave about congress only trying to ban 'scary looking' guns, but let's be honest. It's pretty obvious that's what these mouth breathing dipshits shooting up the place are drawn to.
The Brady Act, after the Reagan assassination attempt, was the ban on assault rifles. It was allowed to expire under the Shrub Administration. And I do not recall hearing a whole lot about mass shootings until the ban was lifted. So yeah, common sense gun laws, even ones initiated by Republicans, clearly don't work, nope.
 

dan-o

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Jun 30, 2004
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The Brady Act, after the Reagan assassination attempt, was the ban on assault rifles. It was allowed to expire under the Shrub Administration. And I do not recall hearing a whole lot about mass shootings until the ban was lifted. So yeah, common sense gun laws, even ones initiated by Republicans, clearly don't work, nope.
The ban was lifted due to it not having much effect on gun violence. Assault weapons were rarely used before the ban. Recent history excepted, they aren't use in the majority of shootings now either.

Of course, that doesn't mean our current violence isn't a result of the ban ending. Or that it is.
 

AngryMetalsmith

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The ban was lifted due to it not having much effect on gun violence. Assault weapons were rarely used before the ban. Recent history excepted, they aren't use in the majority of shootings now either.

Of course, that doesn't mean our current violence isn't a result of the ban ending. Or that it is.
From yer link:

A spokesman for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) stated that he "can in no way vouch for the validity" of the report.[36]

Little research is available utilizing data from more recent years, which may be beneficial, as fatalities from mass shootings in the United States have escalated.[26]
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
The ban was lifted due to it not having much effect on gun violence. Assault weapons were rarely used before the ban. Recent history excepted, they aren't use in the majority of shootings now either.

Of course, that doesn't mean our current violence isn't a result of the ban ending. Or that it is.
Just reference your own memory. How many mass shootings and how many times were AR-15s in the news before it expired? Shit's gone up yo. Back in the 90s a fella had a pack a truck full of horse shit and bleach.
 
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dan-o

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Jun 30, 2004
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Just reference your own memory. How many mass shootings and how many times were AR-15s in the news before it expired? Shit's gone up yo.
There's no question that the lack of an AWB contributed to the shit ton of these rifles in our country.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
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There's no question that the lack of an AWB contributed to the shit ton of these rifles in our country.
IMO, that's a large part of the problem, if not the actual problem, we've flooded ourselves in guns, I can go to walmart and walk out with an AR-15 in a few minutes and tons of ammo, people buy and hord them, they give them to family members, they are so numerous that even a small percentage "falling through the cracks", means thousands, if not millions, of weapons, in the hands of bad people, not to mention the totally legit-at-the-time-of-sale people that later snap. Then of course we glorify guns and give kids toy-guns to practice killing humans with, video games, glorify it in movies, make people believe that they can be John McClain in Die-Hard and be a hero, all contributing to the need to own more guns. The cat is out of the bag in many ways, we've gone so far down the path of stupid that it's hard to take that back. This all feeds back into the loop of accessibility and making it easy to kill a bunch of people real fast from a distance without getting your hands dirty. I like shooting guns, I seeing gun safety and responsible owners, but so many bat-shit-crazy far right idiots have made these mass murders pretty much guaranteed.
 

dan-o

Turbo Monkey
Jun 30, 2004
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IMO, that's a large part of the problem, if not the actual problem, we've flooded ourselves in guns, I can go to walmart and walk out with an AR-15 in a few minutes and tons of ammo, people buy and hord them, they give them to family members, they are so numerous that even a small percentage "falling through the cracks", means thousands, if not millions, of weapons, in the hands of bad people, not to mention the totally legit-at-the-time-of-sale people that later snap. Then of course we glorify guns and give kids toy-guns to practice killing humans with, video games, glorify it in movies, make people believe that they can be John McClain in Die-Hard and be a hero, all contributing to the need to own more guns. The cat is out of the bag in many ways, we've gone so far down the path of stupid that it's hard to take that back. This all feeds back into the loop of accessibility and making it easy to kill a bunch of people real fast from a distance without getting your hands dirty. I like shooting guns, I seeing gun safety and responsible owners, but so many bat-shit-crazy far right idiots have made these mass murders pretty much guaranteed.
I agree.
Beyond just 'more guns' though, something has changed to make this recent style of shooting increase in frequency.

Whether it's 'mental illness', extreme entitlement or trump effect I don't know.
 

AngryMetalsmith

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I agree.
Beyond just 'more guns' though, something has changed to make this recent style of shooting increase in frequency.

Whether it's 'mental illness', extreme entitlement or trump effect I don't know.
It's a whole host of things that contribute to the complex reasons why there is a dramatic increase in mass shootings, but it boils down to two basic elements, this country's unhealthy obsession with guns and the ridiculous availability of military grade weapons.

Add to the mix an ever increasing population, politicians and media giants who are Hell bent on utilizing divisive tactics to push their own agendas, the massive marketing and lobbying machine of the NRA, and last but not least cultural impact. Like @Jm_ said, we live in a culture that promotes gun violence.

And the most frightening aspect of it all is that mass shootings are now trendy. The media bombards us with stories of one shooting after the other, wether it's a local drive by or 500 get blasted at a concert. It's the copy cat scenario played out repeatedly. Not only do other psychos want in on the action, but closet ones stock up on whatever the weapon used in the mass shooting dujour. Which in itself is unspeakably disturbing.
 

JohnE

filthy rascist
May 13, 2005
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Front Range, dude...
...and somewhere in 'murikkka™ right now some twisted fuck is planning to stand up for his rights by slaughtering a bunch of fellow humans in cold blood, that he may or may not know, just because he (Or she, but probably a he. A white male he.) can.
 

rockofullr

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Jun 11, 2009
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The Brady Act, after the Reagan assassination attempt, was the ban on assault rifles
There's no question that the lack of an AWB contributed to the shit ton of these rifles in our country
For the record, you motherfuckers have no idea what you are talking about.

The "Brady Handgun Voilence Prevention Act" was mostly about background checks and had nothing to do with "assault weapons"

The "Federal Assault Weapons Ban" (AWB) did ban "assault weapons" which were defined as:

Semi-automatic rifles able to accept detachable magazines and two or more of the following:
Semi-automatic pistols with detachable magazines and two or more of the following:
  • Magazine that attaches outside the pistol grip
  • Threaded barrel to attach barrel extender, flash suppressor, handgrip, or suppressor
  • Barrel shroud safety feature that prevents burns to the operator
  • Unloaded weight of 50 oz (1.4 kg) or more
  • A semi-automatic version of a fully automatic firearm.
Semi-automatic shotguns with two or more of the following:
  • Folding or telescoping stock
  • Pistol grip
  • Detachable magazine.
Which means the gun pictured below was legal as long as you unscrewed the flash suppressor and screwed on a compensator.



Just thinking we should actually know what we are bitching about.
 

AngryMetalsmith

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For the record, you motherfuckers have no idea what you are talking about.

The "Brady Handgun Voilence Prevention Act" was mostly about background checks and had nothing to do with "assault weapons"

The "Federal Assault Weapons Ban" (AWB) did ban "assault weapons" which were defined as:



Which means the gun pictured below was legal as long as you unscrewed the flash suppressor and screwed on a compensator.



Just thinking we should actually know what we are bitching about.
Meh, my memory isn't the best, but I did actually did see the live coverage of the Reagan assassination attempt and the aftermath of Brady getting shot in the head. Wasn't going by Wikipedia...Were you even born yet ?

comp-pew.png
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
For the record, you motherfuckers have no idea what you are talking about.

The "Brady Handgun Voilence Prevention Act" was mostly about background checks and had nothing to do with "assault weapons"

The "Federal Assault Weapons Ban" (AWB) did ban "assault weapons" which were defined as:



Which means the gun pictured below was legal as long as you unscrewed the flash suppressor and screwed on a compensator.



Just thinking we should actually know what we are bitching about.

Dan-o said the AWB. That doesn't include the word 'brady' :rofl:
 

dan-o

Turbo Monkey
Jun 30, 2004
6,499
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For the record, you motherfuckers have no idea what you are talking about.

The "Brady Handgun Voilence Prevention Act" was mostly about background checks and had nothing to do with "assault weapons"

The "Federal Assault Weapons Ban" (AWB) did ban "assault weapons" which were defined as:



Which means the gun pictured below was legal as long as you unscrewed the flash suppressor and screwed on a compensator.



Just thinking we should actually know what we are bitching about.
I was referring to the Fed AWB.
 

rockofullr

confused
Jun 11, 2009
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East Bay, Cali
Dan-o said the AWB. That doesn't include the word 'brady' :rofl:
Yeah I know, but he seemed to think that there would be less AR-15s if the AWB were still in place. Which isn't true.

All you had to do to make a basic AR-15 compliant with the AWB was remove the flash suppressor.

Meh, my memory isn't the best, but I did actually did see the live coverage of the Reagan assassination attempt and the aftermath of Brady getting shot in the head. Wasn't going by Wikipedia...Were you even born yet ?

View attachment 127094
Not following what you're indicating in that picture.....

And no I wasn't born yet.
 

dan-o

Turbo Monkey
Jun 30, 2004
6,499
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Yeah I know, but he seemed to think that there would be less AR-15s if the AWB were still in place. Which isn't true.

All you had to do to make a basic AR-15 compliant with the AWB was remove the flash suppressor.
You don't think there would be less 'assault rifles' in circulation if the AWB had remained in effect? Have there been no sales since 2004?
 

rockofullr

confused
Jun 11, 2009
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East Bay, Cali
You don't think there would be less 'assault rifles' in circulation if the AWB had remained in effect? Have there been no sales since 2004?
I dunno man. Depends on what you consider an "assault rifle". If you mean an AR-15 then no, they were never actually banned. A few easily removable features were banned.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
I dunno man. Depends on what you consider an "assault rifle". If you mean an AR-15 then no, they were never actually banned. A few easily removable features were banned.
But doooood

Those fucking things are literally EVERYWHERE now.

I just realized I was typing with the barrel of one and I never even bought one!
 
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rockofullr

confused
Jun 11, 2009
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924
East Bay, Cali
But doooood

Those fucking things are literally EVERYWHERE now.
No argument there. I'm just pointing out that the AWB would have in no way prevented any of the recent mass shootings unless you think a telescoping stock was the main problem.

Also even once you ban all the stuff you don't like (such as then new laws in CA) you will still be able to buy an AR-15, just one that looks weird and sucks a bit. At the end of the day it's just a semi-auto rifle and we're never gonna ban all semi-auto rifles.



Or you could lock the magazine and have to load it like a weirdo.



But the real kicker is that you can still legally buy most of the shit that is banned. It's just parts until you put it on a rifle. So if you wanna kill a bunch of people you just buy the parts online and assemble it.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
No argument there. I'm just pointing out that the AWB would have in no way prevented any of the recent mass shootings unless you think a telescoping stock was the main problem.
I'm not asking for specifics of the law, I'm asking you to use your own memory. Are you old enough to remember (serious question)? There's a saturation now that didn't used to exist.

You've seen the news about chucky manson dying today? You know how many people he killed? It's kind of laughable by today's standards. It didn't used to be like this, and the fact that he's so well known is proof of it. And it sure seems like 99% of these shooting sprees involve AR-15s. Specifically banned or not, it sure seems at least part of some flood gates opening.
 

rockofullr

confused
Jun 11, 2009
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924
East Bay, Cali
I'm not asking for specifics of the law, I'm asking you to use your own memory. Are you old enough to remember (serious question)? There's a saturation now that didn't used to exist.

You've seen the news about chucky manson dying today? You know how many people he killed? It's kind of laughable by today's standards. It didn't used to be like this, and the fact that he's so well known is proof of it. And it sure seems like 99% of these shooting sprees involve AR-15s. Specifically banned or not, it sure seems at least part of some flood gates opening.
I wasn't around in the old times so I can't personally remember how many AR's there were back then compared to today. But I'd say the proliferation of ARs is more of a cultural thing than related to the AWB lapsing.

I know lots of people who own ARs and their purchasing decision had nothing to do with "the AWB doesn't exist anymore gonna go buy something I could already buy" and a lot to do with "Check this out! This is fucking AWESOME!!! PEWPEWPEW". Add to that the fact that the AR is one of the most affordable and versatile rifles ever produced and I totally see why there are tons of them. Like Glock handguns, why are their so many? Because they're affordable and functional and they have developed a cultural "cool" factor.

As an interesting side note, I do know quite a few people who bought ARs last year because of the new laws in CA restricting "assault weapons". If you bought them before Jan 1 2017 some features could be "grandfathered" in.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
I wasn't around in the old times so I can't personally remember how many AR's there were back then compared to today. But I'd say the proliferation of ARs is more of a cultural thing than related to the AWB lapsing.

I know lots of people who own ARs and their purchasing decision had nothing to do with "the AWB doesn't exist anymore gonna go buy something I could already buy" and a lot to do with "Check this out! This is fucking AWESOME!!! PEWPEWPEW". Add to that the fact that the AR is one of the most affordable and versatile rifles ever produced and I totally see why there are tons of them. Like Glock handguns, why are their so many? Because they're affordable and functional and they have developed a cultural "cool" factor.
Right.....they're everywhere now. Because manufacture of them shot up like a motherfucker after the ban expired. It really did. AK-47s were the collector's item before the expiration and you can still find blog posts, articles, and forum topics from that period with people asking about which they should buy because the market was getting flooded with ARs. Whether someone is thinking about this when they buy one is irrelevant. They're very very available now. And most of the builds have a few things that were covered in the ban.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
Also laughable in today's context

"A 2004 critical review of firearms research by a National Research Council committee said that an academic study of the assault weapon ban "did not reveal any clear impacts on gun violence outcomes". The committee noted that the study's authors said the guns were used criminally with relative rarity before the ban and that its maximum potential effect on gun violence outcomes would be very small.[28]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban

Relative rarity. Hmmm

Never before has something been so in need of the following phrase:

Try it nao



Plus this. Although I hate that there's no span reaching back before the period of interest.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban#/media/File:Mass_Shooting_Deaths_by_Year_1994-2017.jpg
 
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rockofullr

confused
Jun 11, 2009
7,342
924
East Bay, Cali
Right.....they're everywhere now. Because manufacture of them shot up like a motherfucker after the ban expired. It really did. AK-47s were the collector's item before the expiration and you can still find blog posts, articles, and forum topics from that period with people asking about which they should buy because the market was getting flooded with ARs.
Did it? Really?

Let's look at the numbers. All graphs are from http://knowledgeglue.com/just-how-many-ar15s-are-out-there/ it was the best result that came up with some googling. Doesn't seem like a pro or anti gun website.



I don't see a big jump in '04. I see a huge jump in 2010, 11, 12 though.

So what happened in 2010? I don't know since I'm too young, but I hear a lot of conservative gun type people were feeling particularly distrustful of the government, particularly fearful for their personal safety, and afraid the government was going to take their guns.

I couldn't find the numbers but I bet the Fox News viewership numbers look similar

I think we should ban Fox News :banned:

PS. AKs are probably still more of a collectors item them ARs.
 

Pesqueeb

bicycle in airplane hangar
Feb 2, 2007
41,801
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Riding the baggage carousel.
But the real kicker is that you can still legally buy most of the shit that is banned. It's just parts until you put it on a rifle. So if you wanna kill a bunch of people you just buy the parts online and assemble it.
I'm not asking for specifics of the law, I'm asking you to use your own memory. Are you old enough to remember (serious question)? There's a saturation now that didn't used to exist.

You've seen the news about chucky manson dying today? You know how many people he killed? It's kind of laughable by today's standards. It didn't used to be like this, and the fact that he's so well known is proof of it. And it sure seems like 99% of these shooting sprees involve AR-15s. Specifically banned or not, it sure seems at least part of some flood gates opening.
Anecdotally, this exact discussion was going on at work yesterday. Big rush among some of fellas to get a bunch of parts and lowers together before "some nut job gets them all banned". It was also noted how cheap AR's are now compared to just a couple years ago. As noted earlier, the market is saturated with the things.
 

rockofullr

confused
Jun 11, 2009
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Look reeaalll close at that trendline right at 2004.
It goes up a bit. Not as much as in 2001. If you want to say it all started in 2004 you could make that argument. There doesn't seem to be the big increase I would expect if you want to make a strong case for it. To me it looks like upward trend starts in 2001.