[manimal]

That's just wrong. Surely that's illegal.

ha..hardly. lil' manimal's intro to shooting.....at the police range.

 

[Changleen]

Are gun laws going to stop them, either?

That question is not as flip as it sounds...I've been interested in this for a while. It seems self-evident that criminals/people who own guns illegally won't be stopped by gun laws;

But like I said, if you were to ban guns, obviously at first this would be an issue, but as time went by it'd be harder and harder to own one. Most guns in the US are made in the US right? Once made illegal, and an amnesty conducted or whatever, the only guns left would either be in the hands of law enforcement or criminals. Every time a crim's house was searched, everytime a crim was caught, that's another gun or two out of circulation. Pretty quickly it'd be hard to go out in public with a gun as just having one would make you a criminal.

 

[Changleen]

ha..hardly. lil' manimal's intro to shooting.....at the police range.

What was his grouping like?

 

[Ciaran]

I would like to think of my wife as having some sort of protection at home, given that we're likely going to be moving to a relatively high-crime area, but I also fear her bringing a gun into any situation; it could too easily be used against her IMHO-she's not going to be well-trained enough to use it unhesitatingly or decisively. And a shotgun is probably too much for her to handle altogether. Maybe I'll just get her some OC spray or something, just in case. She can run really fast, at least.

Personally I also wonder about my wifes safety. Currently we live in a safe area and really don't need to worry too much about being robbed or anything like that. Still... one never knows.
I like shooting guns (yes, this hippy actually enjoys shooting guns!) though I've never been too keen on having them in the house. We had a small shotgun when we lived in San Diego but only because where we lived it took law enforcement (or any other emergency help) a while to get there. Now, the wife is comfortable with guns and is a fine shot, but so far I just don't feel very comfortable with guns in the house. So we keep a very large mace under the bed instead.

 

[MikeD]

So we keep a very large mace under the bed instead.

I was maced last week. Sucked.

Oh, wait, you don't mean mace in a can, do you...?

MD

 

[PonySoldier]

... Most guns in the US are made in the US right? ...

An enormous number of the guns sold in the U.S. are made in other countries..Canada, Italy, China, Japan, Spain, Brazil..and others I have certainly missed..

 

[Changleen]

An enormous number of the guns sold in the U.S. are made in other countries..Canada, Italy, China, Japan, Spain, Brazil..and others I have certainly missed..

But, imported legally I suppose? If you were to ban these the result would be the same.

 

[MikeD]

But like I said, if you were to ban guns, obviously at first this would be an issue, but as time went by it'd be harder and harder to own one. Most guns in the US are made in the US right? Once made illegal, and an amnesty conducted or whatever, the only guns left would either be in the hands of law enforcement or criminals. Every time a crim's house was searched, everytime a crim was caught, that's another gun or two out of circulation. Pretty quickly it'd be hard to go out in public with a gun as just having one would make you a criminal.

Guns are a relatively durable commodity...it's not like they'll all just wear out and break or get lost or wilt or spoil and shrivel away. I mean, if you stopped selling cars, you'd still have 600 years' worth of car cannibalization going on before the last car died (no doubt driven by a descendant of Mel Gibson, clad in spiked leather and a hockey mask...)

Ed: I see your point, but there are a LOT of guns out there, and picking away at them will take longer than is practical to have your desired effect.

Guns are here to stay unless we seek them out and destroy them (following the banning scenario you describe), which isn't going to happen in this country due to our culture. And IMHO, we need to focus on societal problems at the root instead of spending our efforts dealing with the symptoms. Generally, stable and prosperous people who own guns don't cause serious problems for society at large.

Ed: And anyone who's carrying a gun in public without a concealed carry permit (which no criminals bother to apply for prior to committing a crime) is already a criminal as the laws now stand...

 

[Changleen]

Guns are a relatively durable commodity...it's not like they'll all just wear out and break or get lost or wilt or spoil and shrivel away. I mean, if you stopped selling cars, you'd still have 600 years' worth of car cannibalization going on before the last car died (no doubt driven by a descendant of Mel Gibson, clad in spiked leather and a hockey mask...)

Guns are here to stay unless we seek them out and destroy them, which isn't going to happen in this country due to our culture. And IMHO, we need to focus on societal problems at the root instead of spending our efforts dealing with the symptoms. Generally, stable and prosperous people who own guns don't cause serious problems for society at large.

What you say is true, but don't forget that banning them would really piss off all the rednecks. That's a huge plus right there.

 

[PonySoldier]

But, imported legally I suppose? If you were to ban these the result would be the same.

But it seems somewhat hypocritical to produce guns for export to the U.S. and then rant and rave about how "guns illegally smuggled into our country" are causing the murder rate to go up.

 

[Changleen]

But it seems somewhat hypocritical to produce guns for export to the U.S. and then rant and rave about how "guns illegally smuggled into our country" are causing the murder rate to go up.

?? Who is doing that?

 

[MikeD]

It's also funny that people all over the world rant about the US and guns, when there are lots of places...say, Iraq or Somalia, where people own, venerate, brandish, and use firearms as a part of daily life... whereas the US is still a very safe and stable place with a really good standard of living. I mean, there are obviously internal issues for us to deal with, but it's not so bad on the large scale. Sure sucks if you live in a crime-ridden, gun-rife ghetto, so I'm not discounting the problems we have with guns...but we're not Columbia or anything.

 

[PonySoldier]

?? Who is doing that?

After a recent rise in the number of handgun related shootings in Canada..the Canadians did..

 

[Changleen]

Ah yeah, I remember the thread now.

 

[PonySoldier]

It's also funny that people all over the world rant about the US and guns, when there are lots of places...say, Iraq or Somalia, where people own, venerate, brandish, and use firearms as a part of daily life... whereas the US is still a very safe and stable place with a really good standard of living. I mean, there are obviously internal issues for us to deal with, but it's not so bad on the large scale.

Especially given that most industrialized countries, and some who rant about U.S. gun laws, are responsible for the vast number of military weapons arrayed across the African continent in the hands just about anyone

 

[fluff]

lil' manimal's

'boyimal' surely? or 'kidimal'?

 

[fluff]

Are gun laws going to stop them, either?

That question is not as flip as it sounds...I've been interested in this for a while. It seems self-evident that criminals/people who own guns illegally won't be stopped by gun laws; however, the collary to this is: "Where do illegal/illegitimate guns come from?" I mean, SIG and Glock aren't selling them off the back dock of the factory to anyone. At some point, legally purchased firearms can become illegal.

This is commonly done through a 'straw purchase,' where a legal buyer purchases the gun and then resells it, most often in violation of law, or through the outright theft and resale of the gun.

But I've been unable to find anyone who can tell me what we can do about this; banning them at this point isn't going to help, as there are too many around already (nor do I really agree with that anyhow), and there's no one method of 'conversion' that's predominant or eminently preventable. Or so I'm told--I have little to no direct experience with this stuff.

Personally, I'm about to have a gun at home for the first time in my life or even my family's history; plus, I'll be carrying it even when I'm not at work. Doesn't worry me, as I'm very comfortable with guns, but I just never felt a reason to have one at home before. (I like to shoot, but didn't feel the need to spend my own money or using my own free time to do it very much.) Now that it's an occupational requirement, I'll do as it demands.

I would like to think of my wife as having some sort of protection at home, given that we're likely going to be moving to a relatively high-crime area, but I also fear her bringing a gun into any situation; it could too easily be used against her IMHO-she's not going to be well-trained enough to use it unhesitatingly or decisively. And a shotgun is probably too much for her to handle altogether. Maybe I'll just get her some OC spray or something, just in case. She can run really fast, at least.

MD

Edit: Those of you who think a gun is solely for killing obviously haven't seen the Simpsons episode where Homer buys a gun. (Featuring, of course, the best Simpsons line ever: "Waiting period?! But I'm angy now!!"

First you ban them and then you trawl the nation with a giant magnet to suck up all the weapons out there.

And best of all, the program would pay for itself with all the loose change gathered up by the magnets from down the back of the sofa etc.

 

[Potroast88]

Coins don't stick to magnets.

 

[fluff]

Coins don't stick to magnets.

But you see the plan as feasible otherwise?

 

[evilbob]

That's just wrong. Surely that's illegal.

Not wrong and in the right conditions not illegal. That's about the age my dad taught me and that is about the age I started my kids. We have guns in the home, everyone knows how to use them so they get used right if needed.

 

[evilbob]

Blah blah blah...

Tools do not emerge from the earth like rocks. People MAKE and refine them to be used for their designed purposes. The intent of weapons is to be destructive.

It does not matter what a given thing (weapon or otherwise) is made for until a person makes the decision to do something with it. My car for instance was designed to be transportation, not a weapon. However, if I decide that I need to run you (or anyone else) over with it, for that instant the purpose is changed by me, for that instant it is a weapon. After that, it's just a car again, just a thing that can not make a decision to hurt anything on its own. The problem is people not things. Things do nothing, people do. Fix the people, if that can be done.

 

[BurlyShirley]

It does not matter what a given thing (weapon or otherwise) is made for until a person makes the decision to do something with it. My car for instance was designed to be transportation, not a weapon. However, if I decide that I need to run you (or anyone else) over with it, for that instant the purpose is changed by me, for that instant it is a weapon. After that, it's just a car again, just a thing that can not make a decision to hurt anything on its own. The problem is people not things. Things do nothing, people do. Fix the people, if that can be done.

Very good point.

 

[valve bouncer]

It does not matter what a given thing (weapon or otherwise) is made for until a person makes the decision to do something with it. My car for instance was designed to be transportation, not a weapon. However, if I decide that I need to run you (or anyone else) over with it, for that instant the purpose is changed by me, for that instant it is a weapon. After that, it's just a car again, just a thing that can not make a decision to hurt anything on its own. The problem is people not things. Things do nothing, people do. Fix the people, if that can be done.

It's a fair point. Can I say then that you support the legalisation of drugs? After all they are just "things" with no inherent danger until someone uses them.

 

[BurlyShirley]

It's a fair point. Can I say then that you support the legalisation of drugs? After all they are just "things" with no inherent danger until someone uses them.

Sort of.
Guns and drugs both have useful purposes. Both purposes already have legislation to control them. Those that are used wrongfully have ill effects.

 

[ohio]

It does not matter what a given thing (weapon or otherwise) is made for until a person makes the decision to do something with it. My car for instance was designed to be transportation, not a weapon. However, if I decide that I need to run you (or anyone else) over with it, for that instant the purpose is changed by me, for that instant it is a weapon. After that, it's just a car again, just a thing that can not make a decision to hurt anything on its own. The problem is people not things. Things do nothing, people do. Fix the people, if that can be done.

Sure a car can become a deadly weapon in the hands of the wrong person, but we tolerate that danger because of the utility of having cars for their intended purpose. That is a very different object than a gun.

I think oddly-shaped rocks are a better example. In the hands of the wrong person they can become deadly weapons and have no real utility to society, but it would take too much effort required to rid the country or world of them. Except it's much easier to kill someone with a gun.

This is not a statement for or against right to bear arms. I just think that your argument sucks.

 

[ohio]

Sort of.
Guns and drugs both have useful purposes.

What's the useful purpose of guns? Oh yeah, that's right, to protect you from other guns.

 

[valve bouncer]

Sort of.
Guns and drugs both have useful purposes. Both purposes already have legislation to control them. Those that are used wrongfully have ill effects.

I'm talking about recreational drug use here. You can use guns of all types recreationally but only one type of drug. Seems hypocritical to me.

 

[BurlyShirley]

What's the useful purpose of guns? Oh yeah, that's right, to protect you from other guns.

Or knives or rapists or spears or charging bears or tazer wielding mexicans.

 

[BurlyShirley]

I'm talking about recreational drug use here. You can use guns of all types recreationally but only one type of drug. Seems hypocritical to me.

Uh...maybe Im misunderstanding you. You can use tons of types of drugs recreationally.

 

[valve bouncer]

Uh...maybe Im misunderstanding you. You can use tons of types of drugs recreationally.

I mean legally.

 

[BurlyShirley]

I mean legally.

 

[valve bouncer]

I mean I can't legally puff on a big fat joint but I can legally go down the rifle range and shoot an M16

 

[fluff]

I mean I can't legally puff on a big fat joint but I can legally go down the rifle range and shoot an M16

Have you just broken the law? 'Cos by the amount of sense you're making at the moment I'd have to say that's a very fat spliff you have on the go...

 

[valve bouncer]

Have you just broken the law? 'Cos by the amount of sense you're making at the moment I'd have to say that's a very fat spliff you have on the go...

Evilbob made the point that guns are just things and it's people that need to be controlled. Obviously he doesn't see the need to ban guns because they are, by themselves, not intrinsically bad. It's a fair point and I made the point that recreational drugs (dope, ectasy, herion etc) are just things as well but we feel the need to ban their use. I find that hypocritical. With me? Makes sense in my head.

 

[fluff]

Evilbob made the point that guns are just things and it's people that need to be controlled. Obviously he doesn't see the need to ban guns because they are, by themselves, not intrinsically bad. It's a fair point and I made the point that recreational drugs (dope, ectasy, herion etc) are just things as well but we feel the need to ban their use. I find that hypocritical. With me? Makes sense in my head.

That makes more sense than any of your previous three posts...

 

[valve bouncer]

That makes more sense than any of your previous three posts...

I thought that's what I had said. Maybe my brain is working faster than my fingers. I am dosed up on cold medicine.

 

[VTApe]

What's the useful purpose of guns? Oh yeah, that's right, to protect you from other guns.

To provide food, recreation, teach resposibility, and lastly, yes, to protect yourself and/or loved ones from others

 

[ohio]

Or knives or rapists or spears or charging bears or tazer wielding mexicans.

Knives - a tazer and/or mace should work
Rapists - ditto
Spears - can't remember the last time someone was speared, but for the sake of argument, let's say bow and arrow... well, you too can have a bow and arrow, but it won't help you much if someone surprises you with a ready-drawn bow. Come to think of it, neither would a gun in your pocket.
Charging bears - for black bears pepper-spray does it. for brown/grizzlies/kodiaks, you need a big ass gun. A li'l ol' 9mm won't do you any good. Either a full on desert-eagle style hand cannon or a 12-gauge packing slugs is necessary. It's not that hard to make an exception for wilderness workers (guides, rangers, loggers, etc.) in a few select areas (Montana, Alaska) and keep close tabs on those few fire-arms.

Tazer-wielding mexicans - just yell "Look out! Border control!"

 

[ohio]

To provide food, recreation, teach resposibility, and lastly, yes, to protect yourself and/or loved ones from others

If you can't figure out another way to find food and recreation, and teach responsibility you should be euthanized before you pass on your tremendous parenting skills to your potential children.

As for protection, see previou catch 22 argument.

Again, I'm not advocating outlawing guns. They're out there, and we've got to deal with them at this stage. I just can't stand listening to bull**** arguments from gun-tards.

 

[fluff]

If you can't figure out another way to find food and recreation, and teach responsibility you should be euthanized before you pass on your tremendous parenting skills to your potential children.

As for protection, see previou catch 22 argument.

Again, I'm not advocating outlawing guns. They're out there, and we've got to deal with them at this stage. I just can't stand listening to bull**** arguments from gun-tards.

I say we outlaw bullets.