i thought DrunkenNinja was crazy, but you are in your own leauge
Happy Patriot Day!
Totally agree. And yes, some fuel was inside the building, and did burn there, and did ignite other materials inside the building. Definitely. And while I am sure it did not all burn up instantaneously, it did burn up relatively quickly, nevertheless.
Think of starting a charcoal grill. The lighter fluid burns up rather quickly, because it is an accelerant, and then the charcoal continues burning after the lighter fluid is consumed. You could spray extra lighter fluid onto the coals and stoke up the flames again, but it will again burn off rather rapidly.
Nobody was pouring additional jet fuel into the trade towers. My point is that the jet fuel was significant at the initiation of the event, but quickly ceased to be a factor in ongoing combustion.
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I would prefer if you challenge my statements with factual statements and evidence.
My personal sanity or lack thereof is not relevant to the discussion at hand.
I wonder if he can make the U.S. economy as good as California's.
Prove that. We're talking about 24,000 gallons of fuel here, not a few squirts of lighter fluid. I've shown you instances where fuel takes a LONG time to burn, almost 3 days in the link I posted earlier. You trying to use a lighter fluid example as to prove a government conspiracy is BEYOND ridiculous. You claiming that the jet fuel burned up "relatively quickly" with ZERO proof other than your gut feeling is pretty pathetic.
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Duuuudde......
RR, your displaying an awful lot of your belief in the US government if you think 9/11 was a conspiracy. No body despises that a-hole Bush more than me and no matter how stupid or misguided I think he was even I don't think he was that horrible. Do you really think that any of those morons in the Bush administration could pull off a conspiracy of such magnitude without someone letting that cat out of the bag? They couldn't even keep domestic wire taps under the table.
Oh wait, it was a conspiracy, 9 religious nut jobs who were part of a religious nut job group plotted to fly airplanes into buildings. Pretty much meets the definition I think.
RR, your displaying an awful lot of your belief in the US government if you think 9/11 was a conspiracy. No body despises that a-hole Bush more than me and no matter how stupid or misguided I think he was even I don't think he was that horrible. Do you really think that any of those morons in the Bush administration could pull off a conspiracy of such magnitude without someone letting that cat out of the bag? They couldn't even keep domestic wire taps under the table.
Oh wait, it was a conspiracy, 9 religious nut jobs who were part of a religious nut job group plotted to fly airplanes into buildings. Pretty much meets the definition I think.
Assuming 24,000 gallons is the correct amount, and I admit I have no knowledge what said amount might be, we must also assume that the amount of fuel is somewhat less than the total due to an amount that exploded harmlessly, although spectacularly outside the building. Agreed?
The fuel tank example is one in which there is some level of containment occurring. Only a small portion of the fuel is exposed to oxygen at any given time and therefore only a limited amount is available to be burned at any particular point in time. Once the exposed layer of fuel is burned off, there is more fuel waiting underneath to be exposed to oxygen, and therefore burned and the process continues... for days even.
In this case, some amount of fuel (but less than 24,000 gallons) spilled all throughout the impact area because the tanks that held the fuel (the airplane's wings) ruptured (and perhaps even disintegrated) on impact. Now maybe some amount of fuel may have been contained in someone's coffee cup or something like that, but it seems pretty clear that the charcoal grill scenario (using fuel as an accelerant) more closely approximates what happened at the WTC than what occurred in the aforementioned fuel tank fire.
The instance you showed also dealt with 50 times as much fuel (1.2 mil vs 24K), and would take proportionally longer to burn.
do you not think that everything else in the building in combination of lingering fuel, causes the buildings to burn and smolder for weeks?
It fascinates me that the defenders of the government in this matter, often use the incompetence of government in its defense. Now don't get me wrong. I believe that government is generally incompetent, but this does not constitute proof of their innocence.
In some ways the incompetence of government is a bit of circumstantial evidence for the LIHOP theory, but it is certainly not proof.
In the end, my estimation is government incompetence = irrelevant.
um... 19 religious nut jobs. 19 nut jobs that were identified almost immediately, which is weird because my family member who was known to be at work that day took over 6 months to be positively identified through DNA evidence. You know where they got the DNA to match? His wife gave them his toothbrush. I guess the nut jobs in question must have turned in their toothbrushes in advance.
I think that the "everything else" does indeed cause the building to continue burning. But this "everything else" burning has never before or since caused a steel framed structure to collapse.
or the fact that they were a bunch of arabs seated on the downed planes. im assuming by process of elimination, our great government ruled out Steve Smith faster than Abdul Mammajawhatever.
and werent some of them criminals??
you are right, a building has never collapsed from fire
Steve, I'm sorry but I have to call this out. Deliberate misquoting and taking words out of context is a Fox News tactic, and I thought you were better than that.
everything that pertained to my comment was quoted.
you are starting to sound as crazy as RR and DrunkenNinja
So you are saying that they simply used their names to determine who was guilty? Hmmmmm... I guess that is probably efficient, but I have doubts as to the accuracy. I wonder if any other arabs were on any of those planes that were not accused (and effectively convicted) of the crime. Sounds like sloppy police work to me.
Oh, and oddly enough: None of these 19 nut jobs were on the passenger lists. Weird. Whole lotta weird on that day.
I think they all were criminals, right? (well at least after the government said they were)
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Steve, the way your comment was phrased would allow for direct comparison between a high rise built with steel and concrete and a wooden barn built by the amish. Not really an apples to apples comparison, and not really relevant to the topic at hand.everything that pertained to my comment was quoted.
you are starting to sound as crazy as RR and DrunkenNinja
Correct, although proportionality is based on the amount of surface area exposed. I would contend that having something on top of and below (floors) along with unbroken windows would mean that the fuel in the Towers had a lot *less* oxygen and surface area than a storage tank that was exposed to the sky. However, even going by your logic of 50x, that's still disproves RR's theory: The storage tank fire that I linked to burned for more than 2 days (almost 60 hours). Tower 2 only lasted 1 hour (9:03 - 10am), and Tower 1 lasted less than 2 hours (8:45 - 10:30).
So saying that something that was 1/50th the size burned for 1/50th the time sounds about right to me...
hmm i dont recall ever saying anything about comparing a barn to a steel building....i said that its not like any other building has ever collapsed from fire...steel or wood....and that of course was sarcasm.
and of course its relevant, dont be ignorant
you two have fun at your yearly meeting of the minds
i love having a debate with a conspiracist because listening to what you say makes me smile
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Rick, for once we may agree on something if I take your apparent sarcasm correctly.
The name "Patriot Day" sickens me for many reasons.
In other news, you know how they ID'd everyone on those planes? BECAUSE THEY ALL DIED. No one knew for a long time who was where in the Trade Centers and they were sifting through all sorts of remains, tracking down survivors etc.
But 100% of the people who were on the planes obviously died. The airlines had accurate manifests. Investigators would get hold of these manifests as a preliminary step before doing anything else. Many of the conspirators were in fact known to the government, even if authorities weren't effectively following the actual plot. Terror suspects on all planes which crashed into buildings on 9/11=not too goddamned hard to figure out.
I suppose I'm wrong and maybe they had to go find DNA evidence to prove the manifests correct. (Although as an investigator, it's fine to make the reasonable assumption that those on the manifest are dead and move on that...finding proof for a court case can come later...) In that case, it's pretty easy to run their names, find their apartments, go there with warrants and grab their toothbrushes. Or just get hold of airport gate surveillance camera footage and rewind to the boarding time, then watch the passengers board. And they'd focus on finding the DNA of the plane passengers before any victims in the tower.
"The Looming Tower" is a pretty easy read that delves into just how the FBI and CIA managed to miss each other entirely while the plot went on and on.
In any case, you will always feel the way you do, and will continue to draw or accept conclusions that are far, far beyond your expertise to make or evaluate. There's simply no reason to argue facts or physics with you, especially as I'm someone who is quite aware of the limits of his own knowledge.
Rick, I guess there's one last thing to say. Of course the government didn't tell all about 9/11. There were a lot of embarrassing details to hide. The Bush administration also used the event to launch the Iraq campaign and didn't want the absolute lack of connection to Iraq to be too overtly trumpeted. That's what the "coverup" is.
PNAC's "Pearl Harbor" event just as easily could have been Operation Bojinka or one of several other terrorist plots. PNAC was aware, even if most Americans weren't, that someone had declared war on us and a significant Islamist terrorist attack on American soil was inevitable...just like [ed: some] Americans in the early 40s realized an aggressive move by Japan was inevitable. It's astonishingly cynical, possibly even downright evil, to speak of it as glibly (possibly even gleefully) as the PNAC crowd did...but that doesn't mean they engineered the plot, or even had an invisible hand in holding off the dogs who could have stopped it in progress.
I avoided losing my brother in WTC by a week. I am sorry for your family's loss, and I can't do anything but marvel at how chance casts the dice for us all.
The name "Patriot Day" sickens me for many reasons.
In other news, you know how they ID'd everyone on those planes? BECAUSE THEY ALL DIED. No one knew for a long time who was where in the Trade Centers and they were sifting through all sorts of remains, tracking down survivors etc.
But 100% of the people who were on the planes obviously died. The airlines had accurate manifests. Investigators would get hold of these manifests as a preliminary step before doing anything else. Many of the conspirators were in fact known to the government, even if authorities weren't effectively following the actual plot. Terror suspects on all planes which crashed into buildings on 9/11=not too goddamned hard to figure out.
I suppose I'm wrong and maybe they had to go find DNA evidence to prove the manifests correct. (Although as an investigator, it's fine to make the reasonable assumption that those on the manifest are dead and move on that...finding proof for a court case can come later...) In that case, it's pretty easy to run their names, find their apartments, go there with warrants and grab their toothbrushes. Or just get hold of airport gate surveillance camera footage and rewind to the boarding time, then watch the passengers board. And they'd focus on finding the DNA of the plane passengers before any victims in the tower.
"The Looming Tower" is a pretty easy read that delves into just how the FBI and CIA managed to miss each other entirely while the plot went on and on.
In any case, you will always feel the way you do, and will continue to draw or accept conclusions that are far, far beyond your expertise to make or evaluate. There's simply no reason to argue facts or physics with you, especially as I'm someone who is quite aware of the limits of his own knowledge.
Rick, I guess there's one last thing to say. Of course the government didn't tell all about 9/11. There were a lot of embarrassing details to hide. The Bush administration also used the event to launch the Iraq campaign and didn't want the absolute lack of connection to Iraq to be too overtly trumpeted. That's what the "coverup" is.
PNAC's "Pearl Harbor" event just as easily could have been Operation Bojinka or one of several other terrorist plots. PNAC was aware, even if most Americans weren't, that someone had declared war on us and a significant Islamist terrorist attack on American soil was inevitable...just like [ed: some] Americans in the early 40s realized an aggressive move by Japan was inevitable. It's astonishingly cynical, possibly even downright evil, to speak of it as glibly (possibly even gleefully) as the PNAC crowd did...but that doesn't mean they engineered the plot, or even had an invisible hand in holding off the dogs who could have stopped it in progress.
I avoided losing my brother in WTC by a week. I am sorry for your family's loss, and I can't do anything but marvel at how chance casts the dice for us all.
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Sarcasm wasn't detected, I'll loosen the foil here...
My issue is this:
Under the US legal system, if you have knowledge that a crime/criminal activity is being planned, and you do nothing to prevent it (and hence allow the crime , than you are considered an accessory to that crime.
If it can be proved that the US Gov't (or any member within it) had specific enough details that could have been used to prevent this incident, why wasn't there an investigation? If true, why is no one being held accountable?
RR have you taken into account the speed in which the fuel was traveling when it hit the WTC's, it didn't stop instantly and burn in place..........
What about all the energy that was transfered from kinetic into heat energy just simply from a 300,000 jet hitting a building at 400 mph. From my rough calculations the kinetic energy is the equivalent of a 150,000 object hitting the tower at 160,000 mph (you square the velocity).
What about all the energy that was transfered from kinetic into heat energy just simply from a 300,000 jet hitting a building at 400 mph. From my rough calculations the kinetic energy is the equivalent of a 150,000 object hitting the tower at 160,000 mph (you square the velocity).
Just because the cops don't manage to stop a crime before it happens doesn't mean they're guilty of the crime...or even incompetence. Several institutional barriers seriously impinged the ability of various people to put this one together. (And massive restructuring of the intelligence and law enforcement entities responsible for this stuff followed the failures of 9/11...)
I really do recommend you read "Looming Tower."
of course it would be a crime, but do you think that if something was planned by the US Government, that any and all investigations would be shot down....especially if it came from the prez?
Right. I suspect much of the fuel continued along its same trajectory and was ejected outside the building. How much exactly, I cannot say.
This I don't understand. What are you trying to say.
Quoted from the charlie sheen thread for relevance:
because I've said it before. With people as hopelessly deluded as RR, there is no conversation. Because in the mind of the conspiracy theorist, if you don't jump completely on the fail boat with them your either part of the conspiracy or hopelessly stupid. There is no argument to be made that will make it past the tinfoil hat.
because I've said it before. With people as hopelessly deluded as RR, there is no conversation. Because in the mind of the conspiracy theorist, if you don't jump completely on the fail boat with them your either part of the conspiracy or hopelessly stupid. There is no argument to be made that will make it past the tinfoil hat.
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Are you saying that the building did not have oxygen inside?Also, The times you mention are when the buildings collapsed. Not when the fires were extinguished.
But the amount of fuel in the WTC is less than 1/50th of that gas tank fire. Let's say it is 1/2 of the fuel that was in the plane. So then assuming the same reaction properties (which we don't agree on), 1/100th of the fuel would be consumed in 1/100th of the time. 60h * 60min = 3600 / 100 = 36 minutes until the fuel would be consumed. At some point the jet fuel stopped being a factor in the resulting fire.
There is much wisdom in what you posted MikeD.
This is the wisest and very likely dead on. I hope it only goes as far as you suggest.
I know you don't want to go point to point, but this statement is flawed. The hijackers names were not on the passenger manifests.
Most importantly it couldn't have been done without accruing a lot of overtime.
I will. Thanks for the insight.
You still don't get it. I'm saying that it's entirely possible that the fuel burned for an hour until the tower collapsed. You're saying without a shadow of a doubt that that's not possible, and yet you've offered *zero* proof of that. If you focused on the more plausible aspects of this argument it would be one thing, but there's nothing plausible about saying that the fuel burned for some period of time, but less than that which would be required to bring down the building, and then went out, and then some US government-supplied fuel stored somewhere on top of a high-rise building in the middle of Manhattan was thrown on to the fire. You've offered zero proof of how much fuel there is, how long that would take to burn, and whether there would be a lack of oxygen inside a burning building to inhibit some of that burning, and yet somehow this proves, beyond a shadow of a doubt that the US Gov't brought down these buildings... (if 24k gallons of jetfuel burned so quickly, how much fuel would be necessary to keep that fire going, and how the heck did the US Gov't get that much fuel 75 stories up in 2 different high-rise buildings in downtown NYC without anybody seeing/noticing??)
Also, The times you mention are when the buildings collapsed. Not when the fires were extinguished.
But the amount of fuel in the WTC is less than 1/50th of that gas tank fire. Let's say it is 1/2 of the fuel that was in the plane. So then assuming the same reaction properties (which we don't agree on), 1/100th of the fuel would be consumed in 1/100th of the time. 60h * 60min = 3600 / 100 = 36 minutes until the fuel would be consumed. At some point the jet fuel stopped being a factor in the resulting fire.
MikeD is right. You'll believe anything you read and parrot it back to us, much the way Foxnews viewers do. There is zero point in trying to actually point out where you're completely wrong, since deep down inside you *know* that what you're reading is true. So there really isn't any point to trying to point out where you're just flat out wrong, or any of the multitude of holes in these conspiracy theories...
Even if you don't believe, it's fun to read the conspiracy theories. There are some pretty crazy things that happened (WTC 7 for instance). I think I'm going to go pick up this book just for a fun read:
of course its fun.
its hard to believe that people actually believe this stuff.
RR, whats your take on the grassy knoll? do you think that the government killed Oswald too fast? and what happened to Ruby's assasin?????
Yes, they were.
They were NOT on "passenger lists" and "victim lists" RELEASED BY THE MEDIA. 1) the hijackers were not victims, but perpetrators 2) family permission was being requested to release each name 3) names of people under investigation often aren't released to the media immediately anyhow.
They were absolutely, 100% on the airline passenger manifest. All of them.
This is why I won't go point-by-point with you. Or at least why I try to resist the temptation.
I just watched the special effects for Tropic Thunder and the pyro guy said that the massive fireball in the opening credits was created with 1600 gallons of fuel. So those spectacular fireballs out of the sides of the buildings may not have taken very much fuel to make.
Steve, I'm surprised you have time for this. Shouldn't you be in Kenya looking for Obama's birth certificate?
- Must spread rep...I don't have a dog in this tin foil hat debate but I thought that was funny.
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So it's hard to say what to believe but regardless I'm quite enjoying this right now:
^^ So that video was pretty nuts. The guys that made that obviously worked very hard. It's worth a watch but get your tinfoil hats prepared in advance.
Very entertaining
Though maybe the conspiracy guys may want to consider this.
I have a wood pile (say a camp fire) I dump gas gasoline on the wood and light it. Boom, flame ball and the wood is instantaneously on fire. After the fireball, is that the wood burning or is there still gasoline on the wood?
Just for fun while I eat my turkey sandwich, I played with some numbers and some some rough calculations
Kinetic energy = .5(mass(kg)) x (velocity(m/s))^2
.5 (179,172 kg(mass of 767))x 178.82 m/s (or 400mph)
= (89,586) (31,977)
= 2,864,691,522 joules
Convert Joules to Celsius and then Celsius to Fahrenheit
Came to roughly 2.7 million degrees F
Granted the conversion is not perfect but you get the idea, no wonder stell memebers were sheared instantaneously
Now add jet fuel………..
Btw the two, I am pretty convinced that this would weaken steel structural members…..
These are just rough numbers you would have to take into account other factores to get a more precise energy release measurement.
Though maybe the conspiracy guys may want to consider this.
I have a wood pile (say a camp fire) I dump gas gasoline on the wood and light it. Boom, flame ball and the wood is instantaneously on fire. After the fireball, is that the wood burning or is there still gasoline on the wood?
Just for fun while I eat my turkey sandwich, I played with some numbers and some some rough calculations
Kinetic energy = .5(mass(kg)) x (velocity(m/s))^2
.5 (179,172 kg(mass of 767))x 178.82 m/s (or 400mph)
= (89,586) (31,977)
= 2,864,691,522 joules
Convert Joules to Celsius and then Celsius to Fahrenheit
Came to roughly 2.7 million degrees F
Granted the conversion is not perfect but you get the idea, no wonder stell memebers were sheared instantaneously
Now add jet fuel………..
Btw the two, I am pretty convinced that this would weaken steel structural members…..
These are just rough numbers you would have to take into account other factores to get a more precise energy release measurement.
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I think we all agree that things just don't add up with the official story, and the independent theories have issues too. As MikeD said, the government probably has reasons for not telling the whole truth, and since they stand in the way of actual investigation, it is likely that the truth will never be known.
Since we know that we don't know the truth, and probably never will, I guess my personal issue is can I accept that 2+2=5?
Pretty sure the official story is that two huge planes full of people and fuel flying into the buildings at a few hundred MPH made them fall, and I absolutely agree that that's the case.